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Thread: Negative Encounter in Pittsburgh on July 4th - R. Pedley

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Here is what I sent to OMI and CPRB.

    This incident happened on July 4th, 2008
    btw, yes the fireworks were beautiful.
    edit: also another note. My Alaska CCW does *NOT* have an address, which was the only ID I had on me. Next time I leave the CCW in the car. I'll be ID-less whenever I do OC.

    Letter 1 of 2
    INCIDENT #070408-01

    Officer in question:
    Pedley, Robert J. (Robert J. Pedley, Robert Pedley)
    Zone 3
    Badge # 4082

    Issues I want to cover:

    1) Officer Pedley's safety procedures:
    1.his handling of MY firearm
    2.his own safety
    3.He was very nervous over a non-issue

    2) The illegal seizure of my firearm and property on my person

    Officer Pedley's handling procedures:
    1) pointed /waved gun in the direction of my legs
    2) He did not check to see if the gun was loaded
    3) laid a LOADED gun on the tire mounted to the back of the vehicle POINTED towards traffic and where the other officers were standing.

    I was walking down the hill from where another and I were watching the boat races and waiting on the fireworks. The location I was walking from was Grandview Ave, across from the Monterey Bay Fish Grotto which has a view of the Monterey Bay. I was really hungry when I started walking down to across the other side of the bay where I could pick up some food. I started jogging down to down via Greenleaf St where I came down to the location where the street intersected with Route 19. I saw officer R Pedley, badge number 4082 who is on location for zone 3, standing there in a safety vest making sure nobody turned up the hill which motor vehicles were being restricted from traveling up the road.

    I turned right thinking there was a sidewalk, but then turned straight looking for a time in which I could safely cross the road. Officer Pedley then proceeded to detain me asking me what I was doing. I then told him I was trying to cross the road. He then asked me to step aside while he questioned me. He thought OC was illegal, then he thought I had to conceal since I had a CCW license. He asked me for my ID, I informed him I didn't have to provide ID since I wasn't doing anything wrong. This went on for about 20 seconds before he told me he'd cuff me if I wasn't going to comply, I reiterated the law also stating he should call the Lieutenant. He cuffed me, then I stood there while he called on the radio. I proceeded to ask him for his badge number since he felt it so needy to cuff me. One officer which was already near came over and proceeded to observe. I'm not sure if he was already parked or proceeded to the location once called. I asked the officer if I could stand to the side of the road as to not be where a vehicle may hit me and he gave an okay. Both officers were confused on what the laws were specifically regarding open carry, the second officer on scene told Officer Pedley he didn't know the answer to the CCW and open carry laws surrounding this incident. More officers eventually made it to the scene, who also happened to not be updated on the current laws surrounding firearms and open carry. One officer who arrived by motorcycle stated his opinion, then proceeded to discuss my illegally seized CCW license which is granted from the State of Alaska and also discussed my firearm. The officer then stated the opinion an Alaska CCW isn't valid in PA. I reiterated what I told Officer Pedley about not needing a license to carry a firearm(LTCF) nor a CCW license to carry a firearm openly on foot. I also informed him he should ask the (attorney) general, he said he would. The officers gave their opinion on how citizens should act and give in to police requests without giving a hard time, which they're okay to give their opinion. I replied correctly and tried my best to not be snappy to the other officers since they were only responding to a call from a fellow cohort. Different officers did ask me for my drivers license several times, some more than once, but I informed them I was not required to give them any identification since I wasn't doing anything illegal. To some of the replies, I did tell them I left it at my hotel room for reasons of pick pockets. They asked me why I'd be concerned about a theft in that regard and I informed them I've already ran in to panhandlers who tried to pick pocket me when trying to distract my awareness.

    I also told them its my only means of identification to get back on my flight back to Alaska without hassle. I told one of the officers at one time the only identification I had was my CCW license. I also stated they did not need anything but my name, DOB, city and state of residence to get a result from NLETS. I must have reiterated this 5 times during the whole encounter, and did snap in a mean fashion at Officer Pedley at the very end because he asked me for my address yet again. He informed me it was for the incident records, and I only gave it so my info would be in the local Pittsburgh database. I don't mind my information being public, I just don't like stop and ID when a person is doing nothing wrong, especially when there isn't any type of crime in the area with a description of a person which may be mistaken as me being the perpetrator of a crime.

    Opinion and misinformation must have gone on for 10 more minutes, but eventually they were able to contact someone to tell them, "it's okay for him to have the gun." The officers all left, except Officer Pedley, who then inserted my illegally seized CCW license and wallet back in to my pocket and inserted my closed pocket knife back in to my right hand pocket. I informed Officer Pedley to I didn't like people handing me a loaded gun and to take the mag and round out of the chamber. He told me he was going to directly insert the firearm back in to my holster. I watched him the whole time very carefully as he did so, since his firearm safety handling leaves much be desired. I don't feel like being on the wrong side of a DEA-agent like incident, Springfield XDs don't have a manual safety.

    The entire incident must have gone on for 30 minutes. While I don't know the time the encounter stated, I do know the end time of the encounter was 2026. I started walking about 1930 down the road to town since I was hungry and wanted to grab something to eat so I wouldn't feel fatigued later. So much for obtaining food to eat, I stayed hungry until after 2300 hours shortly after traffic cleared from the area.

    Letter 2 of 2

    To whom this may concern,
    The following is an action plan for future events if an incident occurs similar to the incident I encountered with Officer Pedley on July 4th of 2008. I've taken some time to think on what I could do if there is a next time, which there shouldn't be if Pittsburgh police officers were informed on carry laws regarding firearms, like an encounter which occurred on July 4th.

    My action plan is as follow:
    1) Upon detainment, to delay, I will start my video recorder on my phone, which will records both video and audio. Law enforcement have no expectation of privacy during their normal duties.

    2) Inform the officer he is under recording, if he doesn't know the law I'll give him an expected amount of time based on my own schedule. I'll inform him I will walk away if he is done, since there is no legal basis for stopping someone legally carrying a firearm. There has been no RAS when I was carrying in the past encounters, I was not acting suspicious in any way nor will I ever act suspicious while carrying a firearm. The PROPER action would be to observe, though I don't mind talking to officers if they just have a question long as I'm not being detained.

    (side note: I had another encounter in Pittsburgh while I was looking for a place to eat while the bike races were in session. I engaged in the scenario 1984, aka giving my ID. The encounter on July 4th I engaged the scenario, "Hawkins")
    3) If the encounter turns out to be like the one which was on July 4th, I will give OMI time to research the incident. If nothing is done, I'll post the video, snapshots of the officer with information regarding the officer on various websites. I for one do not want an officer who can't follow the laws in positions which require interaction with drugs, doing undercover work, or any other position which requires the officer to be not known.

    I made a note on the bottom of this letter in pen. My statement was something like, "I only write this, since I plan on moving to Pittsburgh 6 months to a year". Then I initialed the statement afterward since I already signed the letter.



    I'm more likely to have encounters, good and bad, since I'm an active person and tend to jog with my firearm. It's not like I'm wanting to have encounters. When I was in Pittsburgh I only had a half dozen people come up to me, they were rather curious or asked me for help(directions, questions, etc).


    EDIT: Updated name so search engines will pick it up for indexing.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
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  2. #2
    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    Interesting story insane.kangaroo. I wish I could tell you that it was an isolated incident but it really wasn't. I can tell you that it is a rarity to be stopped and hassled though. I did some math on my own OC travels and out of the past 425 days I have only been stopped by cops about 5 times. Once thrown in cuffs, twice being drawn down on, three times having to put my hands on a car. 3 times were while i was in the street and twice was while in a private business. One time I was actually mugged by a cop and fortunately for him I realized he was one in time to stop my elbow from connecting full force into his throat...but I digress.

    The point is that about 98.8% of the time I never have any trouble...the other time I get hassled I file a report, get an apology and in some cases get a department wide memo put out to illustrate the legality of OC'ing (I refer to the University of Pittsburgh PD).

    All in all, come to Pittsburgh and continue to OC and eventually either the City will put word out to the Police Departments about the law OR you'll just meet every LEO who works for the city. I think we're heading in the right direction.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Agreed. While I never have any problems where I live, with in exception of the out of town state trooper, I'm going to be moving just because I like to be around people.

    Why should I loaf around Alaska all my life, be comfortable, and act like there isn't a care in the world? I can do so much more if I'm in PA, in a wide variety of community helpful activities.

    Also, tbh, while I do care about people in Homer, there seem to be a great deal of hippies and bums who want me to fix their computers and do stuff for free. As if my life is somehow gifted to me and they're were screwed from birth? Yeah right. It sickens me quite so let me tell you, there are anti-military people here who do complain about me carrying my firearm, and I hear about it from managers of locations where I frequently visit. I love people where I live, the managers will stand up for me.

    The anti-military people here make me sick, 4 years ago the Marines went to the school job fair, and some lowlifes created a fuss because the school wouldn't let them set up a booth "why you shouldn't join the marines", they created a protest in front of the school instead. The Marines had to be escorted for their own protection out of the city.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
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    My action plan is as follow:
    1) Upon detainment, to delay, I will start my video recorder on my phone, which will records both video and audio. Law enforcement have no expectation of privacy during their normal duties.

    IMHO, it is considerably unwise to announce your intention to audio or video record them. Those things have a way of disappearing in the evidence room.


    2) Inform the officer he is under recording, if he doesn't know the law I'll give him an expected amount of time based on my own schedule.


    More silliness.

    If you really want to hammer the point home, name them as a defendant in a lawsuit.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    how is my phone going to end up in the evidence room? They can't arrest me for recording them, nor OCing. Police have no expectation to privacy. If they want to dig themselves a deeper hole, great. As for things going missing, it would be their own grave mistake to perform such a heinous action.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Nothing personal, but you are WAAAAY too naive in dealing with the cops. Maybe I'm a little too jaded or cynical, but this is right up there with expecting criminals to follow the law argument that people spout as far as gun control.

    If you are dealing with rouge cops, you WILL be arrested. Do you think they are just going to let you keep a tape of their illegal activities? That will "disappear" in the evidence room while you are getting roughed up for "resisting." The only time a tape or video should come out is in court, period. Come on man, you gotta think.

    how is my phone going to end up in the evidence room?

    Because they are going to arrest you for disorderly conduct or wiretapping or harassment or whatever BS they want to make up to arrest you. You do have a valid point, though. It probably won't even make it into the evidence room.

    People arrested in PA for taping the cops:

    http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/22/220254

    http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/05-videotape.pdf

    While one of the officers at the scene raised the subject of erasing the videotape, they did
    not do so.


    Do you have a good chace at a 1983 suit? Sure, assuming you have some evidence of wrongdoing, which you won't because you were advertising the fact that you were recording them. What do you gain from that? Nothing. What can you lose? Valuable evidence. I can't fathom why you would tip your hand. Do you think they are going to get scared because you have a camera? They beat the crap out of those four guys in Philly with the news helicopter overhead. They aren't afraid of you or the camera.

    They can't arrest me for recording them, nor OCing.

    They can and they will. It has happened before. You are not superman, and it very well may happen to you. It may not be legal. It may give you a cause of action against them (assuming you have some independent evidence), but your evidence will disappear and it will be your word against theirs, which means you will lose, since in the eyes of a jury or judge, cops never lie, ever.

    Police have no expectation to privacy.

    I agree. I would go further to say that nobody in public has an expectation to privacy. If they did, people could just walk around naked with no problem. That of course doesn't matter when you are arrested for "disorderly conduct" and beaten to a bloody pulp for "resisting" while you are handcuffed. Where's your evidence?

    If they want to dig themselves a deeper hole, great.

    They are digging the hole to toss you in it.


    As for things going missing, it would be their own grave mistake to perform such a heinous action.

    And what exactly are you going to do? Sue them with no evidence?

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    ... Okay, now you're just being insulting. Some of my best coworkers, acquaintances, and who I see as a friend are cops. Maybe what you described is whats seen in Chicago and Philly, but I do not believe for a second there it would happen like what you describe in Pittsburgh.

    I do have some experience with police, I used to visit the PD every once and while when the main systems admin was away. They would always talk about police training, academy, and if I asked about their taser they'd tell me about the equipment they use.

    You may feel belittled and don't like cops, don't assume they're all like Chicago cops.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    I have friends that are in law enforcement too, but that doesn't mean that everyone in law enforcement is my friend. I don't hate cops, I just don't trust them. I value my freedom too much, and there is simply too much at stake to risk it and again, for what? What do you gain by saying "Officer, I am going to record this..."

    What I describe is seen in every major city and plenty of small ones too. Go on youtube, there are lots of videos and examples. Don't take my word for it. Chicago, Detroit, New York, LA, Baltimore, etc...

    Go read about the innocence project in Dallas where people are being freed after spending sometimes decades in jail for crimes they didn't do. Heck, they convicted one guy who was at work and had a room full of people to testify and ZERO physical evidence. Gee, you spent 25 years in jail for something you didn't do, uhhh sorry.

    http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/327.php

    Go read about Randy Balko and his blog.

    Go read about the NYC civil rights lawyer who was beaten up along with his wife, pulled out of their cars and arrested for witnessing another person getting beaten up while handcuffed and writing down the badge numbers, time, date, and car numbers, and you want to conspicuously TAPE it?? Do you seriously think you are going to fare differently?

    http://justiceforwarrens.org/what.html

    I'm really not making this stuff up.

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    I have said it before and will say it again "SUE THE BASTARDS" This is the only way these cops learn, But sue the bosses as well. Failure to Train, Failure to Supervise, Neglegent Hiring, Neglegent Retension, and Deliberent Indfference.

    You were "Unlawfully Detained" therefore it was a "Siezure"

    It is time that cops get thier act together. I am retiring from police work in 18months and I don't like what I see coming up.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Rattrapper wrote
    You were "Unlawfully Detained" therefore it was a "Siezure"
    Ah, I keep saying "illegally detained", I need to use the correct terminology("Unlawfully") so I speak clearly in the future.

    Thanks,
    iRoo
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    codename_47 wrote: Watch the second video. Its a Michael Moore video, true. But there is one guy who says, "...people are going to stop respecting the police and start shooting back!"

    I don't think those New York City gun laws are working quite as well as they think.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    codename_47 wrote:
    I have friends that are in law enforcement too, but that doesn't mean that everyone in law enforcement is my friend. I don't hate cops, I just don't trust them. I value my freedom too much, and there is simply too much at stake to risk it and again, for what? What do you gain by saying "Officer, I am going to record this..."
    good post. There are definately good police officers out there. It's the bad ones that spoil the bunch. And which ones do you think are going to hassle you? Odds are, it's not the good cops.

  13. #13
    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    I received a letter from the CPRB specifying all allegations of misconduct were dropped. I don't want to clog up the court system with civil suits which just clog up the system when there are more important, to me anyway, fish to fry in the courts.

    Are there any other nice sites like RateMyCop which people my submit their own reports/comments on officers?
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
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    I received a letter from the CPRB specifying all allegations of misconduct were dropped. I don't want to clog up the court system with civil suits which just clog up the system when there are more important, to me anyway, fish to fry in the courts.

    The courts are not clogged, and they exist to resolve problems. I've found that in Federal especially, the courts are prompt and professional. Why don't you try something before you complain about it.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Well, I don't know if it's worth filing a civil suit over. The person I spoke to made it clear a training memo was sent out, and the next Municipal Police Training in 09' will cover Open Carry. Though... *sigh* I was talking with some people higher up in the Pittsburgh police dept and they said, "Ignorance is no excuse for not knowing the law."

    I'm somewhat disappointed the officer will not be punished for ignorance of the law and ignoring common firearms safety practice when handling a firearm.

    Though, there is always next time if some ignorant person wants to act like a complete jerk. Next time, the voice recorder will be my proof if an officer wants to act unlawfully.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Well, I don't know if it's worth filing a civil suit over.

    You act like filing a civil suit is a big deal. It is dispute resolution, plain and simple. It really just boils down to how important you think your rights are. If you don't think they are very important, then don't worry about it and try to educate the officer next time. I am sure you'll have a receptive audience.

    I'm somewhat disappointed the officer will not be punished for ignorance of the law and ignoring common firearms safety practice when handling a firearm.


    Welcome to the real world. The good guys don't always win. Nobody is going to fight your battles for you. Not the CPRB. Not the FBI. Nobody cares about you. Nobody cares about your rights. You have to make them care. You have to take care of your problems on your own.


    Next time, the voice recorder will be my proof if an officer wants to act unlawfully.
    Yeah, but what are you going to do with it?

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    It's my word against his, guess who they're going to believe. I'm not sure how a civil suit would turn out. Yes, my rights are important to me, though I feel people might ask, "Why am I waiting 6+ months to file?" and "What are you wanting out of it?".

    Which I guess is a question I also have, if I filed a civil suit what would I be suing for? ^_^ I don't need/want money from a suit.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
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    "Why am I waiting 6+ months to file?" and "What are you wanting out of it?".
    Unless those people are the judge or jury, it really doesn't matter. I know what I want out of a suit and that is money. I'm not sure why that makes me a bad person, but I can live with that. If you are financially independent and don't mind having your rights violated, then I guess there is no reason to file.

    You could sue for declaratory judgment or a restraining order or more training if you want the moral victory.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    codename_47 wrote:
    You could sue for declaratory judgment or a restraining order or more training if you want the moral victory.
    Hmm... a judge could force someone to go through training again?
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Hmm... a judge could force someone to go through training again?

    Judges can do all that and more. Training should be the least of their worries, a judge can take supervisory control of an entire police department if the PD manages to consistently screw up again and again.

    Judicial Supervision of Criminal Law Administration William J. Brennan, JR 1Associate Justice, Supreme Court of the United States
    The legal profession's preoccupation with needed reforms incivil procedure has obscured an equally urgent need for improvements in the administration of criminal justice. Judges havean opportunity and a responsibility to secure reforms in managementof the criminal calendar, application of pretrial discoveryand pretrial conference procedures, police investigatory andarrest practices, administration of bail, acceptance of guiltypleas, ap pointment of counsel, and postconviction procedures.The trend is toward enlargement of the judicial supervisoryrole; perhaps it will take us to the ultimate mechanism of criminaladministra tion-a Ministry of Justice.

  21. #21
    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    I raise the question whether my complaint is enough, or if I should file a civil suit. The point of filing a complaint was to make people aware a complaint has been launched in the past about harassing a person open carrying. I'm curious if my complaint is valid enough, or if I should file a civil suit so this type of unlawful behavior doesn't happen in the future. They did send out a training memo, and they are adding a section on open carrying the the municipal police training, so perhaps there is change?
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    'Change' or lip-service? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lip_service

  23. #23
    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Well their announced extra training is from everyone complaining, I'm hoping it is enough. If there are still incidents, then the action to take is obvious. If I do have any further incidents in PA after the supposed training, I'll sue for money and donate the cash to the cause for open carry and/or firearms awareness.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    I hope that you are not defending your point to me.

    I made the reference to 'lip-service' and cited the Wiki entry thinking that you know only the vulgar idiomatic meaning. Its older proper meaning is 'minimally compliant words absent action or intent'.

    You are accepting lip-service as satisfaction.

  25. #25
    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    All I'm saying is I'm going to see if they do change before I take any action against future incidents. Police here in Alaska are very proud and stand up to what is right. I'm not saying they're perfect, hell they screw up sometimes too you know. I did have a chance to talk with some of the officers of the Pittsburgh police department and they were definitely not on the side of the officer who harassed me. I'm not saying what the officer did was right, what he did was terribly wrong. I know every time I act like, "its okay long as the officer knows in the future", it just pisses off everyone(including officers in the dept). I think the problem only roots to people who don't like citizens carrying a firearm, as with the state trooper in the single incident I've had in Alaska.

    Everyone makes mistakes/has bad days, which shouldn't mean everyone should sue every chance they get like an old lady burning herself with McDonalds coffee. People only get one warning from me before I come down full force on them. So if there are people in the police department which ignore the memos and training, well then they're welcoming a lawsuit.

    Like a certain officer said to me in Pittsburgh, "ignorance is no excuse of the law".
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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