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Thread: Kicked out of Kroger in Richmond, threatened by LEO with arrest.

  1. #1
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    Well, after months of uneventful carrying (which is a good thing!), I finally got kicked out of somewhere tonight.

    I was almost done shopping at the Kroger in between Lombardy and Bowe (by VCU), when a Richmond city police officer came up to me (Kroger has paid police working during the evenings). This is pretty much how the conversation transpired:

    Officer: "You know that Kroger has a no weapons policy right?"

    Me: "No, I had no idea. There were no signs on the front of the store, and nobody has asked me to leave."

    Officer: "Can I see your ID?"

    Me: "Why do you need to see my ID? Am I doing something illegal?"

    Officer: "You're trespassing on private property, so I'm going to need to see your ID. "

    Me: "Actually I'm not trespassing. There were no signs out front, and nobody has told me to leave."

    Officer: "Well I need to make sure you're allowed to carry a gun."

    Me: "But I'm not doing anything illegal. Am I being detained? Are you trying to perform an illegal terry stop on me, officer?"

    Officer: "Get out of here, now."


    Since the officer was technically "working for the store", I left when he told me to, as to not trespass. As he was walking behind my friend and I, "escorting" us out, I asked him for his name. He would not give it to me. He also said: "If I see you carrying a gun in this store again, I'm going to arrest you."

    Can he do that? Any other opinions? I would be very interested to find out if there's any truth behind this "Kroger-wide no gun policy".



    Kroger
    901 North Lombardy St.
    Richmond VA 23219
    Store Phone: (804) 213-3620



    EDIT:

    Oh, and for all the "why didn't you just show him your ID?" people (I know you're out there ), this isn't Nazi Germany. The polizei can't just stop you and demand to see your papers when you're not doing anything wrong. If I were a criminal, I wouldn't be walking around Kroger with a gun on my hip, knowing that there is a police officer in the vicinity. Since I didn't meet the criteria for a Terry stop, there were no grounds for me to provide ID, correct?


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    I smell a group shopping trip in the future lol

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    mercutio545 wrote:
    ...I asked him for his name. He would not give it to me.
    Huge red flag, IMO. I've never known a police officer to refuse to identify himself.

    Once outside the store, I probably would have called 911, and told them someone claiming to be an officer told you to leave the store, but that they refused to identify themselves.



  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    You did not have to show ID. That's why he didn't Terry stop you or push the issue ofyour showing ID. On the other hand, now that you have been told to leave to avoid "trespass", he can arrest you if you return and he sees you. Still, it might not be a bad idea to talk to management soon and see if they indeed have an official "gun-free victim disarmament zone" policy.

    Is there something in the water tonight? Danbus just got arrested in Norfolk again for carrying in the public area of Waterside!!

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    If there was a tone of command in his voice where you write that he asked for the ID, I might suggest also finding out who he is and send a formal complaint against an extra-legal ID demand.

    If there was any tone of authority in his voice, I would think it makes also foran attemptedTerry Stop with that bit about checking to make sure you are allowed to carry a gun. Psuedo-reasonable articulable suspicion, I'm thinking.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    I had no idea Kroger were anti gun nazis.

    No more money for them.



  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Lets find out if Kroger is anti gun before we brand them so. Often enough, underlings act beyond their authority in these matters.

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    I can't say specifically for Virginia, but here in Nashville, TN there is no problem with open carry in Kroger.

    Sounds more like a know-it-all cop, moonlighting as a security guard, who just doesn't know his sh*t.

  9. #9
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    I open carry in various Krogers around Richmond on a weekly basis, and have for several years. An internal affairs complaint is in order - and a call to the Kroger management.

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    Call the police station in that district and complain. Or better yet, go to that station and fill out the complaint form. If they don't have one ask for the district commander.

  11. #11
    Regular Member vt357's Avatar
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    I open carry regularly at the Kroger on Hull St. The Chesterfield officer who works security has walked right by me several times (and if he hasn't noticed me OC'ing then he is blind as a bat). I have never had a problem. I'd say you ran into a rogue Richmond officer who decided to make up his own policy on the spot.

  12. #12
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    I've open carried in Kroger on East Ridge a few times and have never had a problem.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    I would make a huge complaint to Kroger.

    This police officer:

    1) Was rude - No excuse for this sort of behavior. He needs to learn that while the city of Richmond may tolerate rude public employees, retail employees will not.

    2) Threatened misdemeanor arrest when State code calls for a citation for misdemeanors.

    3) Police Officer tried to illegally detain you via unwarranted seizure of your drivers license.

    4) Ejected you from the store and did not let you return - leave the gun in the car and then come back and finish shopping - (not that you would or should, but your letter does not have to address this.)

    5) Police officer immediate ejection did not permit you to come to an amicable solution with the store management.

    6 ) Police officer refused to give his name when requested.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    DrMark wrote:
    I probably would have called [sic] (the non-emergency number)911, and told them someone claiming to be an officer told you to leave the store, but that they refused to identify themselves.
    +1
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  15. #15
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I have OCd at that Fan area Kroger many times as well as the one at Willow Lawn. Never have seen such signs and never any problems.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    This certainly calls for a conversation with the night manager of the store, and then a follow-up conversation with the day manager (who usually is the "head guy" at the store) to determine if they were 1) aware of the incident, and 2) if they support the actions of the off-duty cop providing private security services.

    There have been a few other instances where such conversations have clarified that the store was not the one who was upset about a customer OC-ing, and in one case the store stopped hiring off-duty cops for private security services and went to private security company guards, resulting in elimination of the problem.

    While I disagree with Dutch Uncle about your liability to be arrested for trespassif you return to the store under any conditions, it might be prudent to not OC when you go have your conversations with the 2 managers. If your meeting(s) result in clarification that OC is not prohibitted, I would certainly arrange for a return shopping expedition while OC-ing as soon as possible.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    I went to the Kroger website and asked for their policy on the carrying of legal firearms by citizens in their Virginia stores.

    I will post any reply.

    Ed

    ---

    Dear Valued Customer

    Thank you for contacting Kroger.

    This message is not intended to answer the email that you have submitted but we do want to confirm that we have received your message.

    One of our E-Communications Specialists will read and address your comments personally. This often requires some time for research before replying but please be assured we are working very hard to get back to you as quickly as possible.

    Please note that this is a post-only email address, meaning that replies to this auto-acknowledgement are not read.

    If your request is time-sensitive, you may wish to contact our Customer Contact Call Center by calling toll free 1-800-576-4377.

    Thank you again for contacting Kroger.

    Best Regards,

    The Kroger E-Communications Team


    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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  18. #18
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    mercutio545 wrote:
    Officer: "You're trespassing on private property, so I'm going to need to see your ID. "

    Me: "Actually I'm not trespassing. There were no signs out front, and nobody has told me to leave."
    Well said! No trespass without effective notice!

  19. #19
    Newbie W.E.G.'s Avatar
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    Keep the heat turned up on this one!

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    mercutio545 wrote:
    Oh, and for all the "why didn't you just show him your ID?" people (I know you're out there ), this isn't Nazi Germany. The polizei can't just stop you and demand to see your papers when you're not doing anything wrong. If I were a criminal, I wouldn't be walking around Kroger with a gun on my hip, knowing that there is a police officer in the vicinity. Since I didn't meet the criteria for a Terry stop, there were no grounds for me to provide ID, correct?
    I'm one that thinks showing ID is more convenient sometimes....but in your case, he didn't say the magic word....I wouldn't have shown him ID either.

    Was he in uniform. They have a name badge on!

  21. #21
    Regular Member glockfan's Avatar
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    Something about mercutio545 concerned the policeman I think it may have been his tender age of 21. Does he look like a child? I have no idea but I do know all of the policeman who work this Kroger.

    Was the cop a tall, "handsome" guy, with black hair?



  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    glockfan wrote:
    Something about mercutio545 concerned the policeman I think it may have been his tender age of 21. Does he look like a child? I have no idea but I do know all of the policeman who work this Kroger.

    Was the cop a tall, "handsome" guy, with black hair?

    If he was a city cop, he wasn't handsome....unless it was one of the feMALE cops. They look like handsome young men!

  23. #23
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    Skeptic wrote:
    I had no idea Kroger were anti gun nazis.

    No more money for them.

    It only took1 post before we hit Godwin's Law

    And then the 5th to solidify it....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law



  24. #24
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    Citizen wrote:
    If there was a tone of command in his voice where you write that he asked for the ID, I might suggest also finding out who he is and send a formal complaint against an extra-legal ID demand.

    If there was any tone of authority in his voice, I would think it makes also foran attemptedTerry Stop with that bit about checking to make sure you are allowed to carry a gun. Psuedo-reasonable articulable suspicion, I'm thinking.
    Forum,

    This is the classic mentality of Citizen with his Anti attitude.

    He would actually have you file a complain on the officer forhis tone ofvoice. The officer "asked" for ID and there is nothing wrong in asking.

    If his tone was one of authority... while still asking mind you.... somehow THIS is a violation?

    I can see it now..

    "Yes, I want to file a complaint. I did not like how the asked me for my ID and I think he was trying to Terry stop me. Well, he seemed to speak with some level of authority and I did not like it! No.. I did not show it to himmy ID and he allowed me to leave."

    So to the Antis... the police are in violation if:

    • They ask for ID
    • They speak with authority
    • They change their tone of voice
    • They attempta Terry stop
    UNREAL!!!!

  25. #25
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    unless it was one of the feMALE cops. They look like handsome young men!
    I can think of a certain K-9 officer that DOES NOT fit that description!
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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