Drew today. I hope that's my last time ever.

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Even if that other guy didn't have a weapon, would the police prefer you to be dragged from your car and have a fistfight ensue in the middle of the road.

Truth be told, your firearm mitigated a dangerous situation.

My father always told me that I should be wary of picking fights because I never know who I'll be dealing with. Perhaps Johnny Road Rage there will think twice before getting out of his car before he gets himself shot.

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Had you been on foot open-carrying and this guy saw your weapon, he likely would've backed off as related in the story.

But because you were in a car with the pistol on your right hip where he wouldn't see it, there was no way to let him know you were armed without drawing.

Brandishing? Maybe, but if brandishing prevents damage to your car and injury or death to either party, I think an argument can be made that you did the right thing.

I have been in the position of having somebody much bigger than me approach me in a threatening manner before, and when you're sitting in your car trying to not get into trouble, you are in a vulnerable position. I can certainly understand the fear of harm you must have felt. Were I on a jury and the story was related exactly as I read it here, I would aquit.

There are two things to take away, here. First, avoid road rage nonsense at all times. I don't think we need to beat that to death, here. It's just common sense to avoid trouble and heated emotional situations, especially when carrying.

Two, and this is the one applicable to all of us, is what to do when 1) fails.You must consider the scenario when it looks like someone is about to kick your ass, you cannot retreat or run,and you have to decide whether to draw or not. You are cornered, and don't have much time to decide.

I'm not going to state exactly what I would've done here, of course, but I think staying out of jail is more important than my truck, but not getting my head bashed in is more important than worrying about a brandishing charge. I think using your vehicle as both an escape method and, if that's not possible, as a barrier to physical harm, is a good idea. Stuff to think about.

Right, Hank?

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While obviously I wasn't there and can only hear your story, here is how I would analyze it:

1. First, it is always best to practice good driving habits to avoid irritating others but mistakes do happen.

2. He had a right to be angry due to your potentially dangerous driving manuver. However, a simple honk of the horn and maybe a few choice words from the driver's window on his part should have been where it ended.

3. In most states, getting out of the car in the middle of traffic is a violation of traffic laws. Obviously his behavior was out of control, potentially threatening, and likely illegal although probably just a misdemeanor "disorderly conduct" and a traffic infraction.

4. The way I see it is that you had probable cause to believe you were in imminent physical danger but certainly not in clear and present danger of serious bodily injury or death. Someone running up to you and yelling a verbal threat in most jurisdictions is seen as a threat of physical force but not deadly force and in most jurisdictions deadly force is not justified although physical force may be. He had no weapons visible, never actually assaulted you, nor did he try to damage the vehicle.

5. In such a case, I would have locked the doors and rolled up the windows if not done so already. At your discretion, you may have decided to partially roll the window down just far enough to order him to back off but that is it. If the individual started kicking or hitting the car or window or tried to reach his hand it, at that point it may have been reasonable to display the unholstered firearm but still without the barrel actually pointing at him. In the case of reaching the hand in the window, that is an opportunity to roll the window up trapping his hand in and forcing him to quickly release it. Until the individual reaches into his pocket and pulls a weapon or actually smashes the window and starts to pull you out of the car, you have no justification to point or fire the deadly weapon. That is the way I see it and I believe most jurisdictions see it. Now if the person is actually doing those things, a threatof deadly force followed by actually deadly force may be necessary.

6. It is a tricky situation because it all happens so fast and you only have so much time to think. Not only is it a lesson to yourself but the rest of us as well because we could always use more self-defense training most of which involves mentally sorting out possible scenarios and how we would respond.

7. This is an individual decision to make but I believe that if you are going to carry a deadly weapon, you should also carry a non-deadly or not-as-deadly weapon. It looks a lot better in the eyes of the law if you tried non-lethal means first before wasting a guy. I have recently adapted my carry habits to include a semi-automatic pistol, small switchblade knife, taser gun, pepperspray, and oneextra magazine. It is a lot to carry and not very comfortable but each tool has its purpose. In the vehicle, I also have a baton. That way if I am being threatened by someone and there is a"gray area" on whether or not deadly force is justified, if I use the pepperspray or the taser instead of or before shooting the hell out of someone, there are far less questions to answer. A police officer told me that it is important to know proper escalation and de-escalation levels of force. It is a good idea to have a tool that falls somewhere in-between your fist and 15 rounds of hot lead.

Just my two cents.

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My guess as to the police officers' attitude on the situation was that while what you did was illegal, the otherguy basically "asked for it" and therefore the cops let both of you go assuming that both of you learned your lesson for different reasons. In other words, you will think twice before drawing the gun and he will think twice before acting that way on the road.

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I really wonder if that guy learned anything. Had I been in his position, I would've been too chastised to call the cops on the OP. I would've driven off and thanked my lucky stars my stupidity didn't get me shot for my troubles.

Of course, I don't know, because I'm not stupid enough to get out of my vehicle and start a fight in the first place. Who knows how a clown like that thinks.

As for carrying all that extra battle rattle, pepper spray, taser, etc., no thanks. I don't have room on my waist for all that junk, and if something happens I don't want to have to sit and think about which gadget to pull off my batman belt. Either I can walk/run away or I can fight to win.Preferably walk.

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protector84 wrote:

I have recently adapted my carry habits to include a semi-automatic pistol, small switchblade knife, taser gun, pepperspray, and one extra magazine. It is a lot to carry and not very comfortable but each tool has its purpose. In the vehicle, I also have a baton.

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Do you also have the special shoes that (with proper training) allow you to scale walls?

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I've met you Bubb. You're not a clown. You don't strike me asunstable. I well remember your early days on this forum.

Trust your instincts. Just because others would not have judged you to not be in danger after the fact does not mean you weren't or that it was tactically unsound to draw your weapon. I can imagine circumstances where, for tactical reasons, it would bewise to draw a weapon even though the other fella doesn't have one in view. Action beats reaction. If you're not already drawn, you can end up behind the curve trying to react.

Also, I don't know that the rules of applying lethal force are the same as just drawing the gun. We hear the old admonition about not drawing a gun unless you intend to use it. But, I don't know how well thought that was.

Ask yourself how a cop might have reacted if he was sitting in your seat? I'll bet a taser or gun would be out at low-ready real quick, with the officer giving the same commands you did. Maybe add in getting out of the car to avoid being trapped.

I get the idea the fellow was enraged. That is not a predictable state. Somecalm quickly. Others can easily shift into serious assaultive behavior or murder in the blink of an eye. Ask any cop about pre-assault behavior cues. This guy was well past the first few. Youhadno way to know he wasn't onsomedrug, either.

You're stuck in your car. If he's right there at the door andstarts aseriouslyinjurious assault, you may not have time to draw. Especially if that first punch hits your head and knocks you unconscious.

Yes, driving away would be best. But as Justice Holmes remarked, we can't demand calm, reasoned thought in the presence of the uplifted knife.

Based on what you've reported, I don't yet find it clear that you acted unreasonably.

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I think you did the right thing, I think when he did see the gun he might have

stiil cused at you but in his mind Its time to leave, I believe the guys armed.

A Captain of police once told be here in California that brandishing was useing your gun in a threating manner like pointing at someone,however holding it at your side

or up in the air by your head ,where they can SEE your not the guy to mess with today might make them backoff.

The Capt said about 8-10 inches from your head and kind of twist it so theres no mistaking the moves. Besides you can go into the 2 hand pointing faster.

Don't use cell phones and drive either !

Robin47

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BUBB4H wrote:

Coming home from work today. Leesburg Pike, right there in McLean, VA.I was driving like an idiot, talking on my cell phone with my fiance. Very long day.I cut off a guy and I shouldn't have. But anyway...

Stop light. He jumps out of his car, right behind me. I'm on the phone with her and in my rearview I see his door fly open and a flash of his shirt as he runs to my car.He's yelling, "ok mother@#$%er, what's up now!" I dropped my phone, drew my Kimber and held it against the steering wheel, not pointing at him,and started yelling at him to get away from me. He stopped and started backing up yelling, "what the f-?? bring that piece out here motherf-er! bring it out here!"

Well, no. I started driving away.

He followed me. I called the cops. Apparently he did too. They all came. Fairfax's finest. Disarmed me, after asking politely yet brusquely. According to them, no reasonable person would agree that I was in fear for my life. What I did was a classic by-the-book case of brandishing, etc. etc.

They brought out the big book. I felt like puking.

The responding officers were very polite. Not condescending or patronizing at all, which I was very greatful for. Once I gave my story they huddled for a very very very long 55 minutes. In the end, the man in the yellow shirt was facing just as serious a charge and both of us just wanted to go home.So it was a wash, no charges pressed.Turns out HE had a concealed carry permit as well. There's so much I could say about that...but later.

Gents, I know what brandishing is. I feel like such an ass because I know better than that. But, damn it was so reactionary! Never before has the awesome responsibility of carrying a firearm felt so heavy and made so real. They returned my firearm to me, putting it in my backseat.

I don't think this will keep me from carrying. But I will never look at it the same. I could've lost my future career, my freedom, and so much more in the blink of an eye. I sincerely hope and pray I will never draw again. You can flame me all you want. No more than I've flamed myself today. And those that know me, know better.

I hope this will help others who may be eager for the day they clear leather to think again. And for all of us who carry, be very careful. Threat does not equal draw, and your hand may not always remember. Stay safe guys.

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By just reading his words here is sounds to me like he had his gun on him, and wanted you to get out of the car with yours so he would be justified in using his in SD. That's just my take on it.

But anyway, you seem to know what you did wrong in this situation,and you know what to do next time this happens to you. But even with that said it looks like you were just trying to stop this Ahole from punching you, and maybe get his butt back in his car with out a fight.I looks like it worked to me.

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Suppose the fellow had felt that BUBB4H was "targeting" him like the case linked below. Would he have been justified in approaching BUB4H?

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=11286&forum_id=55

Sometimes when you get cutoff it is hard to determine if the driver was just an idiot talking on his cell phone or someone actually trying to kill you. :shock:

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HankT wrote:

You panicked.

Happens.

Sounds like you caught a break..........

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Henretta....Old Buddy.....





Long time No see.



I agree with you on this one.



Tarzan

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Doug Huffman wrote:

HankT wrote: after ten months.

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My thoughts Exactly.



I wonder where she has been hiding?



Tarzan

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Let me sum it up as this is real simple....

Since there was no need to shoot the unarmedman standing outside your vehicle and he was doing nothing but yelling at you....

YOU WEREBRANDISHING A FIREARM!!!

The charge is the sameeven if you did notactually point it in his direction. The fact that you didn't point it in his direction clearly indicates he was not a threat to you. You pulled it out and displayed it to him as a warning to back off.

I would expect a few members to post that what you did was proper. That happens often here even when the act was illegal. It is either moral support or poor judgement on their part.

You were not being physically attacked and the motorist did not have any visible weapons that could cause you any harm. You were inside the vehicle and had a layer of protection that had not been compromised.

Therefore... this is not a case of "self defence" at all.

§ 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to

• point,
• hold or
• brandish

any

• firearm or
• any air or gas operated weapon or
• any object similar in appearance,

whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured.

However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.

Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another.

C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-69.2; 1968, c. 513; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1990, cc. 588, 599; 1992, c. 735; 2003,




Inclosing...

You are lucky that the other guy did not draw down and shoot you.

I suspect he would have been justified in shooting YOU for pulling a gun on HIM when all he wanted to do was "yell at you"over your driving. It would be hard to prove he was there to cause you harm. :uhoh:

You clearly understand your error and I am confident that you will know better next time.

But for those here that think it was not brandishing... think again!!

To be honest... I would probably have charged you. You got real lucky.

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protector84 wrote:

My guess as to the police officers' attitude on the situation was that while what you did was illegal, the other guy basically "asked for it" and therefore the cops let both of you go assuming that both of you learned your lesson for different reasons. In other words, you will think twice before drawing the gun and he will think twice before acting that way on the road.

 

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I would come at it from another angle. If I was the officer I would have done the same thing. However, it would have been more of a ,"yes it was wrong, but it prevented a possible assault or worse" rather than a "he asked for it" type attitude.

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You are technically right LEO, but what if (and I know we hate what if games) the other driver attempted to pull the OP out of his vehicle. I don't think a reasonable person in the OP's situation would think the other driver merely wanted to chat with him. If he got out of his car, came up to the OP's car, AND attempted to assault him, I think the brandishing would be justified. Just throwing it out there.

This case is also an example of the police officers right not to arrest for a misdemeanor. I have some some on this board who believe the police have too much power in deciding when to arrest vs. not to arrest. I think the officers did the right thing in this one.

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Off-setting penalties. First down!

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nitrovic wrote:

You are technically right LEO, but what if (and I know we hate what if games) the other driver attempted to pull the OP out of his vehicle. I don't think a reasonable person in the OP's situation would think the other driver merely wanted to chat with him. If he got out of his car, came up to the OP's car, AND attempted to assault him, I think the brandishing would be justified. Just throwing it out there.

This case is also an example of the police officers right not to arrest for a misdemeanor. I have some some on this board who believe the police have too much power in deciding when to arrest vs. not to arrest. I think the officers did the right thing in this one.

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The OP gave no indication that an assault was pending.

Could it happen? Yes.

Could he have had his gun ready but hidden? Yes.

But...

Could the guy just be blowing off steam? Yes.

Could the OP lock the door and roll up his windowto prevent easy access to him? YES!!



If theOP was about to be attacked by the guy reaching in to cause him harm...would he be justified in pulling out his gun and pointing it at the guy? Hell yes!

But NONE of this happened!!!

The OP pulled it out and never even pointed it at the guy. This says.. he feared something "could" happen but knew at that moment "nothing" was happening to justify pointing his gun at the man.

What he probably did not realize is that the simple displayand the pointingat the guy is brandishing just the same.

He tipped his handtoo early and he knows this now.

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LEO 229 wrote:

He tipped his handtoo early and he knows this now.

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YUP! I bet he won't be doin' that again!

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LEO 229 wrote:

Let me sum it up as this is real simple....YOU WEREBRANDISHING A FIREARM!!!.........You got real lucky.

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Amen



Tarzan

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I believe that it is crucial that anybody who carries a weapon of ANY kind receive regular training on it. Without sounding hypocritical, I could use a lot more training myself. Training does not necessarily involve one-on-one with a professional. It could simply be regular practice at the gun range or practice drawing and retention techniques right at home (safely of course).The two types of training one needs in my opinion involves both a mental as well as physical aspect. The physical aspect is your ability to use the chosen weapon properly when needed. The mental aspect is deciding when to use or not use the weapon, deciding which weapon to use, or otherwise making decisions on what to do in any situation. Mental training shouldcome in a couple of forms. The first being that you regularly practice what-if scenarios in your head so that ifa real situation similar occurs, you have training to fall back on when the adrenaline hits. The second involves re-evaluating real-life situations. Every time you do get in a situation (and hopefully get out of it), you should ask yourself, "What did I do well?" and "What could I have done better?" Every fight you lose but survive should be treated as training for the next one.

I do personally find it a bit concerning that so many people want to carry steel around but have no interest in carrying anything non-lethal or training themselves in non-lethal force. Such people run the risk of using deadly force whennot justified or not using any force at all when required. There is a reason that police officers and military carry different types of weapons. Self-defense is not one-size-fits-all. If all you carry is a pistol and nothing else, I strongly suggest coming up with action plans on how you are going to defend yourself with non-lethal force if needed because when some crackhead comes up and hits you in the mouth several times, you will regret having fired ten rounds into his chest especially when you realized too latethat it wasn't a smart thing to do.