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Thread: Concealed Permit and Schools

  1. #1
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    Friend of mine, his wife is a school teacher.

    She has a CHP for Virginia and lives quite a ways out in the country about 40 miles from the school she teaches at.

    She wants to carry in the car to and from school and secure the firearm in the vehicle while in school.

    Is this legal?

    Can you please cite me the code one way or the other?

    I have read some of the threads about the GFSZ, so the feds may play in here.

    Thanks

    Be Careful out there.

    Paul

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    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

    A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of § 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon (a) the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony; however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence.

    The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.
    James Reynolds

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    ProShooter wrote:
    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

    A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of § 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon (a) the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony; however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence.

    The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.
    The bold part there is the key. You must remain in your vehicle, with the weapon concealed to be legal.
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    so if I read this part right:

    a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle;

    She can place the unloaded firearm in a closed container prior to arriving on the school grounds and retrieve it for the ride home after leaving the school grounds?

    Am I understanding thelaw correctly?

    She cannotplace it into the container loaded and exit the vehicle to go teach even with a CHP?

    Thanks

    Be Careful out there.

    Paul

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    She would have to park off school property.

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    bnkrazy wrote:
    The bold part there is the key. You must remain in your vehicle, with the weapon concealed to be legal.
    I was of the impression that you could only have your CCW if both you and the gun stayed in the car, and that your gun had to stay in the car if you were to exit the vehicle--i.e. the OP's friend's wife could leave her gun in the car (locked up, presumably) when she went to work, regardless of where she parked.

    Correct me if I'm wrong?

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    She has a CHP so she can drive into the parking lot Conceal Carrying. Before exiting the vehicle, unload it,place it in a locked gun case, exit vehicle and place in trunk. When she leaves, retrieve locked case, after leaving school grounds, uncase gun.
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    I will see if I can get some clarification from a lawyer friend. Unless there's someone here that can difinitevly interperet the passage. It seems there are several different interpretations floating around.

    I'd like to know, as I drop my daughter off every day and ccw while in the drop off loop. I was under the impression you could not exit the vehicle, or leave it in the car while on the property, although there is one clause in there that does seem to allow it for unloaded firearms.
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    bnkrazy wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

    A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of § 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon (a) the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony; however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence.

    The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.
    The bold part there is the key. You must remain in your vehicle, with the weapon concealed to be legal.
    To me, I would add (vi) to (vii) also as part of the key. I would then wonder what the state's lawful definition of unloaded is. Can the ammo be in the same conrainer as the firearm, just not in the weapon or say does the ammo go in the trunk and the weapon in the glove box?

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    She has a CHP so she can drive into the parking lot Conceal Carrying. Before exiting the vehicle, unload it,place it in a locked gun case, exit vehicle and place in trunk. When she leaves, retrieve locked case, after leaving school grounds, uncase gun.
    (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or

    (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school.

    For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.

    Section vi shows "in or upon a motor vehicle"

    Section vii shows "ina motor vehicle"

    So it does not appear she cannot step out of the vehicle and place it in the trunk.

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    The way the law is written it seems that the problem is it must be concealed with a valid CHP to be on the property (and usable as a CCW). It also appears you can carry a firearm onto the property unloaded in a "closed container," which would be of no use as far as CCW is concerned.

    The problem is if you are concealing, you can't unconceal to unload it and put it in a "closed container" while on school property. It would have to be done off the property, before arriving and then after departing. At least, that's how I interpret it.

    Why we can't just have a law that says "don't shoot anything that doesn't need shootin' "is beyond me. We need to get rid of all the "cross this imaginary line and you're a felon" laws.
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    bnkrazy wrote:
    The way the law is written it seems that the problem is it must be concealed with a valid CHP to be on the property (and usable as a CCW). It also appears you can carry a firearm onto the property unloaded in a "closed container," which would be of no use as far as CCW is concerned.

    The problem is if you are concealing, you can't unconceal to unload it and put it in a "closed container" while on school property. It would have to be done off the property, before arriving and then after departing. At least, that's how I interpret it.

    Why we can't just have a law that says "don't shoot anything that doesn't need shootin' "is beyond me. We need to get rid of all the "cross this imaginary line and you're a felon" laws.
    Bold Clarification... do you mean towalk onto the property?

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    This is a good thread. I often pick up my child in a car pool line, staying in the vehicle while carrying. However, every now and then, I need to briefly get out of the car to retrieve him from aftercare. In that case, I generally just slide the gun under the seat and lock the vehicle. Based on this thread, that makes me doing something illegal. I would have to have a locked container with me in the front seat, unload the weapon, then lock it up in the container before exiting the vehicle. Since I drive an SUV, without a trunk, I don't need to exit the vehicle to lock up the gun.

    Would this process make me legal?

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    What about locking it in the glove compartment? And why unload it?

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    bnkrazy wrote:
    The way the law is written it seems that the problem is it must be concealed with a valid CHP to be on the property (and usable as a CCW). It also appears you can carry a firearm onto the property unloaded in a "closed container," which would be of no use as far as CCW is concerned.

    The problem is if you are concealing, you can't unconceal to unload it and put it in a "closed container" while on school property. It would have to be done off the property, before arriving and then after departing. At least, that's how I interpret it.

    Why we can't just have a law that says "don't shoot anything that doesn't need shootin' "is beyond me. We need to get rid of all the "cross this imaginary line and you're a felon" laws.
    Bold Clarification... do you mean towalk onto the property?
    No, in a vehicle. The clause that statement was based on includes the "in or upon a motor vehicle" statement. I admit though, I don't know what "in or upon a motor vehicle" really means.
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    alnitak wrote:
    ...I would have to have a locked container with me in the front seat, unload the weapon, then lock it up in the container before exiting the vehicle. ...
    The way I interpret the law, you cannot un-conceal the firearm to put it in the box. That's the problem I see the way the two exceptions are written. The way it is written, it is legal to A) have a concealed firearm in the car if you have a CHP and B) have an unloaded firearm in a "closed container." I don't see a way to go from A to B without breaking the law as written. I don't think OCing in your car in a school lot would be covered the way the law is written.
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    So put the gun in the glove compartment when you get in before you drive off to work. Get to work, park the car, and lock the glove compartment, and then get out and lock the car and do your thing.

    Or put it in one of those car lock-boxes, and actually lock it when you step out of the car.

    No unconcealing (the gun stays concealed the whole time), no extra handling of the weapon (i.e. unloading it). Practically right there if you need it...maybe.

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    kle wrote:
    So put the gun in the glove compartment when you get in before you drive off to work. Get to work, park the car, and lock the glove compartment, and then get out and lock the car and do your thing.

    Or put it in one of those car lock-boxes, and actually lock it when you step out of the car.

    No unconcealing (the gun stays concealed the whole time), no extra handling of the weapon (i.e. unloading it). Practically right there if you need it...maybe.
    It has to be unloaded while locked in the container. Not much good for CCW if you start out that way at home.

    ETA:
    It sounds like you could unload and lock it before entering school property, then retrieve and reload after leaving the property. I guess that's better than nothing.

    I'd like to get some of these silly laws repealed though.
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    bnkrazy wrote:
    kle wrote:
    So put the gun in the glove compartment when you get in before you drive off to work. Get to work, park the car, and lock the glove compartment, and then get out and lock the car and do your thing.

    Or put it in one of those car lock-boxes, and actually lock it when you step out of the car.

    No unconcealing (the gun stays concealed the whole time), no extra handling of the weapon (i.e. unloading it). Practically right there if you need it...maybe.
    It has to be unloaded while locked in the container. Not much good for CCW if you start out that way at home.

    ETA:
    It sounds like you could unload and lock it before entering school property, then retrieve and reload after leaving the property. I guess that's better than nothing.

    I'd like to get some of these silly laws repealed though.
    I'm still failing to see how, as she holds a CHP, she can't just do what I suggest: put the loaded gun in an unlocked-but-closed container (it would be considered "concealed" at this point, and fall under exemption vii). When she steps out, she just locks the container, leaves it in the car, and goes about her business, now no longer in possession of the gun (it's locked up in her car), thus it isn't "concealed carry" anymore--it's just sitting in her car now.

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    bnkrazy wrote:
    The problem is if you are concealing, you can't unconceal to unload it and put it in a "closed container" while on school property. It would have to be done off the property, before arriving and then after departing. At least, that's how I interpret it.
    You can put a big bath towel over your lap , the gun, and the container , or something like that. Then it remains legally concealed

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    kle wrote:
    I'm still failing to see how, as she holds a CHP, she can't just do what I suggest: put the loaded gun in an unlocked-but-closed container (it would be considered "concealed" at this point, and fall under exemption vii). When she steps out, she just locks the container, leaves it in the car, and goes about her business, now no longer in possession of the gun (it's locked up in her car), thus it isn't "concealed carry" anymore--it's just sitting in her car now.
    Because it has to be unloaded and locked in the container to meet exception vi. I suppose if she unloads it in the container, while it is still concealed, it would work.

    Keep a beach towl in the back seat.
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    kle wrote:
    I'm still failing to see how, as she holds a CHP, she can't just do what I suggest: put the loaded gun in an unlocked-but-closed container (it would be considered "concealed" at this point, and fall under exemption vii). When she steps out, she just locks the container, leaves it in the car, and goes about her business, now no longer in possession of the gun (it's locked up in her car), thus it isn't "concealed carry" anymore--it's just sitting in her car now.
    (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or

    (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school

    In regards to vii .....

    You have to stay in the vehicle with the concealed handgun

    I guess you will notbe in possession of the concealed handgun if it is in the glove box.

    At the point you exit the vehicle and the gun is left behind.... perhaps you fall under vi that states you have to store it unloaded in a container or gun rack.

    I suspect the idea is that a gun that is now unattendedcould fall into the hands of another. Itwill at least be unloaded. It says NOTHING about being locked up.

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    bnkrazy wrote:
    kle wrote:
    I'm still failing to see how, as she holds a CHP, she can't just do what I suggest: put the loaded gun in an unlocked-but-closed container (it would be considered "concealed" at this point, and fall under exemption vii). When she steps out, she just locks the container, leaves it in the car, and goes about her business, now no longer in possession of the gun (it's locked up in her car), thus it isn't "concealed carry" anymore--it's just sitting in her car now.
    Because it has to be unloaded and locked in the container to meet exception vi. I suppose if she unloads it in the container, while it is still concealed, it would work.

    Keep a beach towl in the back seat.
    The way I read it, those two exemptions are independent--the person can either have the gun unloaded and locked in the container OR the person can have a CHP and not worry about unloaded/locked-up. There's an "or" in the language between the two exemptions, not an "and".

    Of course, the person could do both and be doubly covered, but (at least to my programmer's mind) either one shall suffice to qualify for the exemption.

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    That sounds like a plan. Sit in a school parking lot with children around with a towel over your lap moving your hands around underneath the towel. That definitely won't be suspicious :shock:

    Might as well put a Stranger Danger sticker on your car.
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    deepdiver wrote:
    That sounds like a plan. Sit in a school parking lot with children around with a towel over your lap moving your hands around underneath the towel. That definitely won't be suspicious :shock:

    Might as well put a Stranger Danger sticker on your car.
    You have moved on to what would be a felony if not kept concealed..

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