Concealed Permit and Schools

bnkrazy · Oct 8, 2008

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kle wrote:

I'm still failing to see how, as she holds a CHP, she can't just do what I suggest: put the loaded gun in an unlocked-but-closed container (it would be considered "concealed" at this point, and fall under exemption vii). When she steps out, she just locks the container, leaves it in the car, and goes about her business, now no longer in possession of the gun (it's locked up in her car), thus it isn't "concealed carry" anymore--it's just sitting in her car now.

Because it has to be unloaded and locked in the container to meet exception vi. I suppose if she unloads it in the container, while it is still concealed, it would work.

Keep a beach towl in the back seat.

LEO 229 · Oct 8, 2008

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kle wrote:

I'm still failing to see how, as she holds a CHP, she can't just do what I suggest: put the loaded gun in an unlocked-but-closed container (it would be considered "concealed" at this point, and fall under exemption vii). When she steps out, she just locks the container, leaves it in the car, and goes about her business, now no longer in possession of the gun (it's locked up in her car), thus it isn't "concealed carry" anymore--it's just sitting in her car now.

(vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or

(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school

In regards to vii .....

You have to stay in the vehicle with the concealed handgun

I guess you will notbe in possession of the concealed handgun if it is in the glove box.

At the point you exit the vehicle and the gun is left behind.... perhaps you fall under vi that states you have to store it unloaded in a container or gun rack.

I suspect the idea is that a gun that is now unattendedcould fall into the hands of another. Itwill at least be unloaded. It says NOTHING about being locked up.

kle · Oct 8, 2008

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bnkrazy wrote:

kle wrote:

I'm still failing to see how, as she holds a CHP, she can't just do what I suggest: put the loaded gun in an unlocked-but-closed container (it would be considered "concealed" at this point, and fall under exemption vii). When she steps out, she just locks the container, leaves it in the car, and goes about her business, now no longer in possession of the gun (it's locked up in her car), thus it isn't "concealed carry" anymore--it's just sitting in her car now.

Click to expand...

Because it has to be unloaded and locked in the container to meet exception vi. I suppose if she unloads it in the container, while it is still concealed, it would work.

Keep a beach towl in the back seat.

The way I read it, those two exemptions are independent--the person can either have the gun unloaded and locked in the container OR the person can have a CHP and not worry about unloaded/locked-up. There's an "or" in the language between the two exemptions, not an "and".

Of course, the person could do both and be doubly covered, but (at least to my programmer's mind) either one shall suffice to qualify for the exemption.

deepdiver · Oct 8, 2008

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That sounds like a plan. Sit in a school parking lot with children around with a towel over your lap moving your hands around underneath the towel. That definitely won't be suspicious :shock:

Might as well put a Stranger Danger sticker on your car.

LEO 229 · Oct 8, 2008

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deepdiver wrote:

That sounds like a plan. Sit in a school parking lot with children around with a towel over your lap moving your hands around underneath the towel. That definitely won't be suspicious :shock:

Might as well put a Stranger Danger sticker on your car.

You have moved on to what would be a felony if not kept concealed.. :lol:

ProShooter · Oct 8, 2008

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Skeptic wrote:

You can put a big bath towel over your lap , the gun, and the container , or something like that. Then it remains legally concealed

I was going to suggest the very same thing

We hashed this subject out last week and no one liked my interpretation of the law so this time I'm gonna let you guys argue about it....

bnkrazy · Oct 8, 2008

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The way I read it, those two exemptions are independent--the person can either have the gun unloaded and locked in the container OR the person can have a CHP and not worry about unloaded/locked-up. There's an "or" in the language between the two exemptions, not an "and". Of course, the person could do both and be doubly covered, but (at least to my programmer's mind) either one shall suffice to qualify for the exemption.

Funny, I'm a programmer as well and don't see it that way. I see what you're saying about the exceptions being mutually exclusive. Here's how I see it. You can either have an unloaded firearm in a "closed container" Or, you can have a loaded, concealed firearm if you have a CHP.

When you put the gun in the box loaded and then lock the box and walk away, you don't fall in to the "concealed with a CHP" anymore, as you're no longer in control of the firearm (this may be where we are differing in opinion).

You also don't fall under the "unloaded in a closed container" exception as it's loaded.

I think it depends on how the law defines concealing the gun with a CHP. Whether it has to be in your immediate control or not.

LEO 229 · Oct 8, 2008

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bnkrazy wrote:

The way I read it, those two exemptions are independent--the person can either have the gun unloaded and locked in the container OR the person can have a CHP and not worry about unloaded/locked-up. There's an "or" in the language between the two exemptions, not an "and". Of course, the person could do both and be doubly covered, but (at least to my programmer's mind) either one shall suffice to qualify for the exemption.

Click to expand...

Funny, I'm a programmer as well and don't see it that way. I see what you're saying about the exceptions being mutually exclusive. Here's how I see it. You can either have an unloaded firearm in a "closed container" Or, you can have a loaded, concealed firearm if you have a CHP.

When you put the gun in the box loaded and then lock the box and walk away, you don't fall in to the "concealed with a CHP" anymore, as you're no longer in control of the firearm (this may be where we are differing in opinion).

You also don't fall under the "unloaded in a closed container" exception as it's loaded.

I think it depends on how the law defines concealing the gun with a CHP. Whether it has to be in your immediate control or not.

In my experience... to have a concealed handgun it would need to be on you in close by that you can easily get it.

If you are in your car and it is under your seat... you have a concealed gun.

If it is on the seat next to you and covered with a towel... you have a concealed gun.

If you are standing outside your car next to the open door where the gun is covered by the towel.... you have a concealed gun.

So the real test is.... how far away is far enough that it is no longer concealed?

You could even take a few steps away and still be in control of that gun and be charged with it being concealed.

You just put it in the glove box.... it is concealed!!

But it is really open to interpretation. Each situation will have a different answer.

kle · Oct 8, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

In my experience... to have a concealed handgun it would need to be on you in close by that you can easily get it.

If you are in your car and it is under your seat... you have a concealed gun.

If it is on the seat next to you and covered with a towel... you have a concealed gun.

If you are standing outside your car next to the open door where the gun is covered by the towel.... you have a concealed gun.

So the real test is.... how far away is far enough that it is no longer concealed?

You could even take a few steps away and still be in control of that gun and be charged with it being concealed.

You just put it in the glove box.... it is concealed!!

But it is really open to interpretation. Each situation will have a different answer.

That was the kind of thing we explored in my firearms safety class when I was getting my CHP: if you put the gun in your car, but have it locked up or in a place so that you couldn't easily access it, then it isn't "concealed" and merely being "transported" (i.e. if you have it in your locked glove compartment or in a lockbox in your trunk or whatever--you'd have to stop the car, turn off the engine, unlock the trunk/glove box, and then retrieve the gun to use it).

ProShooter · Oct 8, 2008

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kle wrote:

That was the kind of thing we explored in my firearms safety class when I was getting my CHP: if you put the gun in your car, but have it locked up or in a place so that you couldn't easily access it, then it isn't "concealed" and merely being "transported" (i.e. if you have it in your locked glove compartment or in a lockbox in your trunk or whatever--you'd have to stop the car, turn off the engine, unlock the trunk/glove box, and then retrieve the gun to use it).

If you are driving down the road and its in the glove compartment, then its concealed because its "on or about your person"

A gun locked in the trunk while you are driving is being "transported"

kle · Oct 8, 2008

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ProShooter wrote:

If you are driving down the road and its in the glove compartment, then its concealed because its "on or about your person"

A gun locked in the trunk while you are driving is being "transported"

Yes, but if it's locked in the glove box, then it's merely being transported, because you'd have to take extraordinary action to access it. At least, you do in my car--the lock on the glove box is the same key used to turn the engine--I'd have to stop the car (or at least turn off the engine), take out the key, unlock the glove box, and retrieve the gun if I wanted/needed to use it. Which is a lot more complicated than simply opening the glove box and getting the gun.

I suppose there's actually legal precedent here, though, because there was a bill (SB 436) that said that such transportation (locked in the glovebox) doesn't fall under concealed carry. But then it got shot down by our dear governor...

Bummer--I concede on this point (that is isn't CC). But the OP's friend's wife has a CHP, so that doesn't apply to her anyways...

LEO 229 · Oct 8, 2008

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ProShooter wrote:

kle wrote:

That was the kind of thing we explored in my firearms safety class when I was getting my CHP: if you put the gun in your car, but have it locked up or in a place so that you couldn't easily access it, then it isn't "concealed" and merely being "transported" (i.e. if you have it in your locked glove compartment or in a lockbox in your trunk or whatever--you'd have to stop the car, turn off the engine, unlock the trunk/glove box, and then retrieve the gun to use it).

Click to expand...

If you are driving down the road and its in the glove compartment, then its concealed because its "on or about your person"

A gun locked in the trunk while you are driving is being "transported"

Ya... Just because it is locked up in the glove box in reach of yourself or a passenger... does not mean someone does not have a spare key and can easily get to it in seconds.

But I thought there was some type of ruling on the glove box recently.

paramedic70002 · Oct 8, 2008

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My kid's school requires that parents sign out students at the end of the school day, if they are being picked up. So I HAVE to go inside. The whole thing is ridiculous.

LEO 229 · Oct 8, 2008

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paramedic70002 wrote:

My kid's school requires that parents sign out students at the end of the school day, if they are being picked up. So I HAVE to go inside. The whole thing is ridiculous.

Well, looks like you need to lock it up then......

Thank all the people in the past that brought guns into school for evil purpose as they cause the law to change.

bnkrazy · Oct 8, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

paramedic70002 wrote:

My kid's school requires that parents sign out students at the end of the school day, if they are being picked up. So I HAVE to go inside. The whole thing is ridiculous.

Click to expand...

Well, looks like you need to lock it up then......

Thank all the people in the past that brought guns into school for evil purpose as they cause the law to change.

Nevermind the moronic politicians that think those evil doers read signs or obey laws.

LEO 229 · Oct 8, 2008

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bnkrazy wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

paramedic70002 wrote:

My kid's school requires that parents sign out students at the end of the school day, if they are being picked up. So I HAVE to go inside. The whole thing is ridiculous.

Click to expand...

Well, looks like you need to lock it up then......

Thank all the people in the past that brought guns into school for evil purpose as they cause the law to change.

Click to expand...

Nevermind the moronic politicians that think those evil doers read signs or obey laws.

Ya.... I know... and YOU know....

It is not a prevention measure... Only a way to punish those after the fact.

Thundar · Oct 8, 2008

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If you have a concealed handgun permit and the handgun is concealed in the vehicle, then I think you are O.K. When you leave the vehicle you no longer possess it and you are still O.K. When you return to the vehicle you again possess it, you are still O.K.

As I read it containers are only for entry onto school propertyby those without a CHP.

What am I missing?

LEO 229 · Oct 8, 2008

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Thundar wrote:

If you have a concealed handgun permit and the handgun is concealed in the vehicle, then I think you are O.K. When you leave the vehicle you no longer possess it and you are still O.K. When you return to the vehicle you again possess it, you are still O.K.

As I read it containers are only for entry onto school propertyby those without a CHP.

What am I missing?

A ticket?? :uhoh:

Unless you are there with the gun for a school sponsered event... you MUST keep the gun in the vehicle.

§ 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

A. If any person possesses any

(i) stun weapon as defined in this section;

(ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or

(iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of § 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon

(a) the property of any

public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds;

(b) that portion of any property

open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or

(c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school,

he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon

(i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds;

(ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or

(iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school,

he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony;

however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence.

The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to

(i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities;

(ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose;

(iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises;

(iv) any law-enforcement officer;

(v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade;

(vi) a person who possesses

an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or
an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or

(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school.

For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.

bnkrazy · Oct 8, 2008

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Here's the reply from my friend that works for a law firm in town. He's not an expert in firearms law, but I gave him a link to the section of the code and he poked around a bit.Disclaimer: this info is provided as-is and is not to be construded as legal advice...since I'm providing the info and I'mnot a lawyer.

This is an interesting question so I did a little poking around.

The past case law has been based on interpretations of the old law, and have come out negatively against the person bringing a firearm (i.e. handgun) onto school grounds. The Attorney General's opinions and the VA Supreme Court opinion were both written pursuant to the old law, pre-2003. Although I am shooting from the hip on this - pun intended - and would need to do a more looking to offer a strong opinion, it appears that with the change in the law (including the language stating that a locked container = trunk) your friend would be legal if she had her handgun unloaded and locked in her trunk when she pulled onto school property and left it there for the whole time she was on the property.

Not sure how much good it would do her if she had an unloaded gun in the trunk if she had a problem, but I guess there would be some situations where she would have a chance to get to it if she needed to.

Thundar · Oct 8, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

If you have a concealed handgun permit and the handgun is concealed in the vehicle, then I think you are O.K. When you leave the vehicle you no longer possess it and you are still O.K. When you return to the vehicle you again possess it, you are still O.K.

As I read it containers are only for entry onto school propertyby those without a CHP.

What am I missing?

Click to expand...

A ticket?? :uhoh:

Unless you are there with the gun for a school sponsered event... you MUST keep the gun in the vehicle.

Yes LEO I agree you must leave the handgun in the vehicle, that is what the thread is about.

Let me be clear.

If you have a CHP, conceal the gun IN THE VEHICLE, park in the school parking lot and leave the gun IN THE VEHICLE, what law has been broken?

When you are in the car you are allowed to conceal. When you leave the vehicle you are no longer in possession of the handgun. When you return to the vehicle you are allowed to conceal.

Concealed Permit and Schools

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