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Thread: CA illegally requires SSN for gun purchases

  1. #1
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    Hello,

    I am currently being denied the right to purchase any and all firearms because I refuse to have or use a Social Security number, which no law requires me to have or use to live, work, or exercise my rights in my own state and country.

    I have a valid U.S. Passport, obtained with no SSN, a certified copy of my Birth Certificate, issued by a California county where I was born. I have vehicle title and registration documents evidencing residency. I have no felony convictions, nor any other reason to be denied my rights under the 2nd Amendment.

    While the States are forbidden from demanding a SSN for gun purchases and concealed carry permits, California gets around the prohibition by requiring one of only two forms of identification, both issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles, and both requiring a SSN to obtain.

    The authority for the demand for SSN is given as Title 42, section 666 of the United States Code, also known as the "Deadeat Dads" law, meant to facilitate the collection of back child support payments. I am not married, never have been, nor am I a father to any child, and most likely never will be, since I am now 51 years old. That law names driver's licenses, but does not name identification cards as being applicable, yet California acts as if the law applies to both, when it clearly only applies to driver's licenses.

    This is all a disgusting and cynical effort by the state to circumvent the protection of rights offered by the Privacy Act, which prohibits demanding of SSN's for all but limited, proper, and specified purposes, by demanding identification documents it knows require the SSN, rather than accepting other valid identification, or demanding it directly on their DROS background check forms, which would be blatantly illegal.

    I understand that Mike Stollenwerk was successful in California in a similar case, to the extent he was able to resolve the matter without going to court. I would like to have access to his research and filing documents, if possible, in the hopes I can resolve my issue myself, without having to hire an attorney and go to state and then to federal court, which will cost lots of time and money, neither of which I have.

  2. #2
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    well, you could email me, but here is the deal - the 9th cir. has a holding in a case cllaed Dittman that Section 7 of the federal privacy act does not apply to states. No other circuit has this view of the law.

    You might try state court, or you might try changing the federal court's mind. Both ways will cost lots of $ - like maybe $75,000+ in legal fees.

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    I would guess that your best bet would be to find out if you could buy a gun in a neighboring state. I know that in Colorado, a Passport is equal to a driver's licence for purposes of identification.

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    One document I came up with regarding gun purchases in Colorado has an asterisked comment to the effect that California law prohibits California residents from purchasing guns in Colorado.

    I am astounded and dumbfounded that California can presume to take away a Citizen's 2nd Amendment right in the first place, holding it hostage to availing oneself of a privilege, by participating in a voluntary Federal benefits program, and using it's number, but it seems totally ridiculous that the state of Colorado would concern itself at all with California law, which has ABSOLUTELY NO JURISDICTION in Colorado!

    Here is the excerpt:

    [line]

    COLORADO INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK SYSTEM

    BEFORE CALLING THE CBI:

    The potential firearm transferee must be present.

    The Department of the Treasury Firearms Transaction Record (Form 4473) must be filled out completely by the

    transferor. Identification must be verified by the FFL.

    1. Have the customer complete the Department of Treasury Form 4473.

    A. If the customer’s answers indicate a prohibition, do not call the CBI.

    B. Check the DOB. If the customer is under 21 years of age he/she can not purchase a handgun, but can purchase

    a long gun.

    C. If the customer is 21 years of age, he/she can purchase either a handgun or long gun.

    D. If the customer did not write out his/her middle name, or only wrote the initial, request the full middle name.

    E. Check the Customers’ State of residence. If customer is not a resident of Colorado they cannot buy a handgun. Colorado residency requirements do not apply for long gun sales.
    *Per California law, residents of California cannot purchase any firearms in Colorado.

    [line]

    So what does this mean? If they determine you are a California resident they will not allow you to buy a rifle or shotgun in Colorado, but if you are a resident of any other state you can? How does THAT work?

  5. #5
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    How can Colorado take it upon itself to enforce California law, IN COLORADO?

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    RJB wrote:
    How can Colorado take it upon itself to enforce California law, IN COLORADO?
    It's not Colorado--it's federal law. 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3) prohibits a dealer from selling a firearm to a resident of another state with an exception of rifle or shotgun sales where the applicable state laws of both the state in which the transaction is to occur and the purchaser's state of residence do not prohibit the sale.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

  7. #7
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    How can the State of California dictate what I can or cannot do in another state?

    How can a state deal with Citizens of other states in ways that result in different treatment, where Citizens of some states are regarded as having more rights than Citizens of others?

    This seems to trample asunder the entire concept of sovereignty and jurisdiction!

    This is INSANITY!

    California law is irrelevant to any other state, because California has NO JURISDICTION outside of California! California law is IRRELEVANT outside of California!

    This blurring of jurisdiction is theerasing of state sovereignty.

    Under what possible legal concept canone state hold a Citizen to the laws of another state?

    What about theConstitutional rights all Americans being guaranteed to be EQUAL, from one state to another?

    The bottom line is that I am an AMERICAN, who is in full possession of his Constitutional rights, and yet is being told he cannot purchase a firearm in ANY state, because of the laws in one particular state!

    My 2nd Amendment Right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed by the NATIONAL CONSTITUTION, which all states have to abide by EQUALLY.

    This is unbelievable! I could literally DIE for being deprived of the right and means to defend myself, and for no good reason.

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    When the states begin to recognize and enforce each other's laws, the States, as political entities, become meaningless and irrelevant.

    This is just another way to nullify the Constitution, because the Constitution was creates and exists by virtue of ratification by the states. When the states begin to enforce each other's laws, outside of those states, then they behave essentially as one state.

    The only crime I am guilty of is not using a damnable federally issued number, which is 100% VOLUNTARY to obtain. How DARE this, or any other government, deprive me of my Constitutionally guaranteed RIGHT to defend myself, and put my life in jeopardy, just because I will not take or use their damned number!

    I hope everyone here can see that this is a prime example of why I believe, with all my heart and soul, that we should ALL be rejecting this number. It is just a way to strip us of our rights, control us, and leave us defenseless.

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    Mike,

    Could I email you directly?

    I did not see an email link for you.

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    Thanks for allthe replies!

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    I heard that unless a SS number was "Requaired before 1974" you don't have to give it to that "outfit".

    I'm sorry I don't have the Code on it, however you should go to the SS department

    and ask them, they are the Authority on SSA stuff.

    Robin47

  12. #12
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    Whats keeping you in Ca.? there's 49 more to choose from.. or 48 i'd say, I won't live in Hawaii either..

  13. #13
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    Leave California without the intent to return. Take up residence in another state. Enjoy the liberty that your newstate affords you.If you get sick of your new state go to another state or return to your original state.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    All you people stop tyring to take our people away! We need them here to fight! We are Americans and we don't run, right?

    Lets get down to business. .. . I don't recall what forms of ID are needed, but the DL is not needed to prove residence, that is what the utility bill is for, so otherwise I might suggest IIRC that your passport can be used as valid photo ID. IIRC the wording was something like ...government issued ID. . .

    I will try and find it...

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    The federal standard is that you must supply any combination of government-issued documents which establish your identity (photo), age, and residency, in order to purchase a firearm from a dealer. A passport is not sufficient because it lacks residency information, although you should be able to supply copies of leases or whatever to establish this. It also states explicitly on form 4473 that providing a SS# is optional. States can have other gun regulations, but I'm sure that it is not enforceable that you supply your SS# for a gun purchase (I think Mike's case was in Virginia). If you have been denied a gun based on this, then congratulations - you now should have standing to pose a legal challenge to this "law."

    An interesting, and not unrelated, event came up here recently. An Amish guy wanted to buy a gun but they don't have photo IDs. I called the ATF and they said too bad -no ID, no gun. I'd be curious to see a court ruling on this 1st vs. 2nd amendment problem.

    -ljp

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    Legba wrote:
    An Amish guy wanted to buy a gun but they don't have photo IDs. I called the ATF and they said too bad -no ID, no gun.
    he should buy in a pri9vate sale then - lawful in ohio and most states.

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    WVCDL wrote:
    RJB wrote:
    How can Colorado take it upon itself to enforce California law, IN COLORADO?
    It's not Colorado--it's federal law. 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3) prohibits a dealer from selling a firearm to a resident of another state with an exception of rifle or shotgun sales where the applicable state laws of both the state in which the transaction is to occur and the purchaser's state of residence do not prohibit the sale.
    So what you can do is move to another state that respects Section 7 of the Federal Privacy Act, make a home there for a spell, buy some guns without disclosing your SSN, if any, and then move back to CA.

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    Mike wrote:
    Legba wrote:
    An Amish guy wanted to buy a gun but they don't have photo IDs. I called the ATF and they said too bad -no ID, no gun.
    he should buy in a pri9vate sale then - lawful in ohio and most states.
    That's true, but he was from out of state and I just work as a dealer, so as an interested party, I didn't encourage him to go to flea markets in his home state. I doubt he'll be reading this forum either.

    -ljp

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    Well...I was looking through the PC 12071 in relation to what is required. In the actual section of
    PC12071 (3)(C) Unless the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the
    firearm presents clear evidence of his or her identity and age to the dealer.
    It then later....MUCH later attempts to define "clear evidence"

    PC12071(20)(G)(c) (1) As used in this article, "clear evidence of his or her identity and age" means either of the following:
    (A) A valid California driver's license.
    (B) A valid California identification card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles.
    California Vehicle Code in relation to needing SSN:
    PC12800. Every application for an original or a renewal of a driver's license shall contain all of the following information:
    (a) The applicant's true full name, age, sex, mailing address, residence address, and social security account number.
    12801. (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the department shall require an application for a driver's license to contain the applicant's social security account number and any other number or identifier determined to be appropriate by the department.
    From what I can tell there is no way around this requirement. I know that when I moved to CA from VA it was a problem. They would not accept my VA DL as valid ID...but then when I got all my proper forms they asked for my VA DL. ...Anyway...I digress....Here is my real problem with this....A SSN was only supposed to be tracking your contributions to the SS.....now it is a personal tracking system...You can't do anything without it.

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    Notice that the citations of California law do NOT state that a Social Security number can be required for a California Identification Card, which is one of the onlytwo forms of identification required for firearms purchases.

    Neither does federal law, Title 42, section 666, the so-called "Deadbeat Dads" law, specify that state issued I.D. cards as targeted documents requiring the SSN. They are nowhere mentioned.

    So, if neither federal nor statelaw creates a SSN requirement for a California state issued I.D.WHY can't I just get a California I.D. card without a Social Security number and use it for my gun purchases?

    Apparently, just because some petty and tyrannical state bureaucrats say so.

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    Are private purchases an option for you?

    Or do all firearms purchases in California have to go through a dealer?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    The right to keep and bear arms is NOT a right at all if you must firstengage ina privilege by applying for and using a Social Security number in ordertoexercise it!

    THE EXERCISE OF A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT CANNOT BE MADE DEPENDENT UPON THE EXERCISE OF A PRIVILEGE WITHOUT EFFECTIVELY TURNING THAT RIGHT INTO A PRIVILEGE!

    THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID THAT NO ACT OF LEGISLATION, RULE MAKING, OR REGULATION CAN CONVERT A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT INTO A PRIVILEGE!

    Yet, here I stand before you, a prime example of how the government is doing exactly that, doing so routinely, and without any penalty whatsoeverfor doing so.

    So what other basic rights can we be effectively stripped of for the crime of daring to live as a natural born, unenumerated, Citizen inhabitant of the land?

    I would say that since it is the 2nd Amendment that guarantees the individual the means to defend all his other rights, that if the SSN has the power to deny us that right, that it gains the power to destroy ALL our rights.

    The Supreme Court has said that the Constitution says I have a right to keep and bear arms, in the form of common firearms.

    The Supreme Court has said that my rights cannot be converted into privilege.

    Yet, my rights are being denied and turned into privileges, denying me my right to those firearms.

    Forgive me if the only conclusion I can logically reach from this experience is that the Constitution is no longer worth the paper it is written on, and the "rule of law" only applies to the extent that it can be used by the criminals in government and industry to control us and rob us of our rights, primarily by converting them into privileges, if not outright, then in effect.

    Having established that, and furthered by argument of necessity, would it be unreasonable to think I would be perfectly within my rights, as both an American and a human being,to obtain any firearm I deem necessary, by any means necessary, short of theft or harming another innocent Citizen to get it?

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    Thundar wrote:
    Leave California without the intent to return. Take up residence in another state. Enjoy the liberty that your newstate affords you.If you get sick of your new state go to another state or return to your original state.
    Exactly why I decided not to return to Florida, and to live in Colorado instead. Florida doesn't force me to pay State taxes, but Colorado's firearm laws are a lot more lenient.

    That, and when SHTF, there's a lot more empty space to disappear into.

    Besides, you don't wanna be in the Democratic People's Republic of California when it breaks off to go hang out with Hawaii.

  24. #24
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    RJB wrote:
    Having established that, and furthered by argument of necessity, would it be unreasonable to think I would be perfectly within my rights, as both an American and a human being,Â*to obtain any firearm I deem necessary, by any means necessary, short of theft or harming another innocent Citizen to get it?
    Morally? Any who would object have no "morality".

    Legally? I'd say you have standing and a valid argument, but I wouldn't want to go to court over it unless I had the cash to win.

  25. #25
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    Unless your a Fugitive,if you really want the firearm without changing states of residence, I personally would go ahead and fill in the line for S.S.N. and make my purchase. God knows you won't be the first person to fill in the S.S.N. block and you won't be thelast.. any transaction you make other than Cash can be traced back to you anyway. the electricity /water/credit cards/check book/cameras at traffic lights/practically every business you patronize has you oncamera..

    I know I know your rights are being violated,But you do have a right not to purchase a firearm, and thus far thats exactly what your accomplishing..

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