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CA illegally requires SSN for gun purchases

Citizen

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Are private purchases an option for you?

Or do all firearms purchases in California have to go through a dealer?
 

RJB

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The right to keep and bear arms is NOT a right at all if you must firstengage ina privilege by applying for and using a Social Security number in ordertoexercise it!

THE EXERCISE OF A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT CANNOT BE MADE DEPENDENT UPON THE EXERCISE OF A PRIVILEGE WITHOUT EFFECTIVELY TURNING THAT RIGHT INTO A PRIVILEGE!

THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID THAT NO ACT OF LEGISLATION, RULE MAKING, OR REGULATION CAN CONVERT A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT INTO A PRIVILEGE!

Yet, here I stand before you, a prime example of how the government is doing exactly that, doing so routinely, and without any penalty whatsoeverfor doing so.

So what other basic rights can we be effectively stripped of for the crime of daring to live as a natural born, unenumerated, Citizen inhabitant of the land?

I would say that since it is the 2nd Amendment that guarantees the individual the means to defend all his other rights, that if the SSN has the power to deny us that right, that it gains the power to destroy ALL our rights.

The Supreme Court has said that the Constitution says I have a right to keep and bear arms, in the form of common firearms.

The Supreme Court has said that my rights cannot be converted into privilege.

Yet, my rights are being denied and turned into privileges, denying me my right to those firearms.

Forgive me if the only conclusion I can logically reach from this experience is that the Constitution is no longer worth the paper it is written on, and the "rule of law" only applies to the extent that it can be used by the criminals in government and industry to control us and rob us of our rights, primarily by converting them into privileges, if not outright, then in effect.

Having established that, and furthered by argument of necessity, would it be unreasonable to think I would be perfectly within my rights, as both an American and a human being,to obtain any firearm I deem necessary, by any means necessary, short of theft or harming another innocent Citizen to get it?
 

AnaxImperator

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Thundar wrote:
Leave California without the intent to return. Take up residence in another state. Enjoy the liberty that your newstate affords you.If you get sick of your new state go to another state or return to your original state.:)

Exactly why I decided not to return to Florida, and to live in Colorado instead. Florida doesn't force me to pay State taxes, but Colorado's firearm laws are a lot more lenient.

That, and when SHTF, there's a lot more empty space to disappear into. ;)

Besides, you don't wanna be in the Democratic People's Republic of California when it breaks off to go hang out with Hawaii.
 

marshaul

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RJB wrote:
Having established that, and furthered by argument of necessity, would it be unreasonable to think I would be perfectly within my rights, as both an American and a human being, to obtain any firearm I deem necessary, by any means necessary, short of theft or harming another innocent Citizen to get it?

Morally? Any who would object have no "morality".

Legally? I'd say you have standing and a valid argument, but I wouldn't want to go to court over it unless I had the cash to win.
 

Carnivore

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Unless your a Fugitive,if you really want the firearm without changing states of residence, I personally would go ahead and fill in the line for S.S.N. and make my purchase. God knows you won't be the first person to fill in the S.S.N. block and you won't be thelast.. any transaction you make other than Cash can be traced back to you anyway. the electricity /water/credit cards/check book/cameras at traffic lights/practically every business you patronize has you oncamera..

I know I know your rights are being violated,But you do have a right not to purchase a firearm, and thus far thats exactly what your accomplishing..
 

Blackburn

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Carnivore wrote:
Unless your a Fugitive,if you really want the firearm without changing states of residence, I personally would go ahead and fill in the line for S.S.N. and make my purchase. God knows you won't be the first person to fill in the S.S.N. block and you won't be thelast.. any transaction you make other than Cash can be traced back to you anyway. the electricity /water/credit cards/check book/cameras at traffic lights/practically every business you patronize has you oncamera..

I know I know your rights are being violated,But you do have a right not to purchase a firearm, and thus far thats exactly what your accomplishing..
fail
 

Carnivore

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Blackburn wrote:
Carnivore wrote:
Unless your a Fugitive,if you really want the firearm without changing states of residence, I personally would go ahead and fill in the line for S.S.N. and make my purchase. God knows you won't be the first person to fill in the S.S.N. block and you won't be thelast.. any transaction you make other than Cash can be traced back to you anyway. the electricity /water/credit cards/check book/cameras at traffic lights/practically every business you patronize has you oncamera..

I know I know your rights are being violated,But you do have a right not to purchase a firearm, and thus far thats exactly what your accomplishing..
fail
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#30

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"Looks to me like the whole state fails, What the hell are ya hiding by not giving your social anyway it's connected to everything else they require in the first place.. all the way to your thumb print if you've ever had to be bonded for employment..

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"Everything California requires of a purchase qualification is overkill aside from a drivers license, I've bought 10 guns in 90 days before, and never gave my social once until this last Shotgun purchase, and thats only because I wanted to make sure all the B.S. was accoplished within 24 hrs. so I could use the new shotgun on a dove hunt.
 

RJB

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I am most definitely NOT a convicted felon, nor am I a fugitive from the law. I have sufficient documentation and personal references that my identity is NOT in doubt to any reasonable person. I am not looking for anonymity, or to be "untraceable". I WANT the government to know I am armed, so that the rest of my rights will be respected. My life is an open book, more so than most, though apparently still not open enough for the criminal fascist government control freaks.

I have a valid U.S. Passport. I have certified copies of my birth certificate. There are public school and university records. I have vehicle title and registration documents. I have fingerprints, which will match perfectly those the government already has on file.

If necessary, I could show up every day at a Notary Public for the period required for establishing legal residency, and have the notary certify my continuous presence in the state for that period. I could phone the DOJ every day and the phone records would show the calls originating in California. I could take a photo of myself standing in front of a Post Office, holding a daily newspaper, every day for the required time period. Etc, etc.There are lots and lots of ways to prove my identity and residency. So why does California only permit two? Because both of them create a demand for an SSN that the law would otherwise prohibit, while the other methods would not!

But why should I send in $20 to pre-screen and waste weeks or months of my time waiting for determination, only to have to do it all over again at purchase? Am I not to be presumed innocent before guilty? Why doesn't the government have to prove anything to me first?

If they say I have the right to keep and bear firearms, then I want them to prove it to me by allowing me to do so, otherwise, why should I believe them? The government always says one thing out one side of its mouth, and the opposite out the other. It is not to be believed, nor trusted.

No, I do not need to waste $20 and up to 3 months of my time "pre-screening" when I KNOW to an absolute undisputable certainty, and can easily provethat I have a RIGHT to keep and bear firearms.

I do not have or use a Social Security Number,which the SSA says no law requires me tohave in order to live and work in my own country, the USA.

I do not have a California Driver's License or I.D. Card, which no law requires me to have to live and work in the USA, including California. Both documents require providing the Social Security Number, which no law requires me to have, in order to obtain, creating an indirect "requirement" that would otherwise be prohibited if it were made directly.

Again, I am in 100% full legal possession of my rights, including those under the 2nd Amendment.

So how is it that the government can ASSUME that I am not in full possession of my rights, subject to me availing myself of one of their many privileges? Isn't some level of evidence, such as Probable Cause, or Reasonable Suspicion, necessary to deprive a Citizen of a fundamental Right?

Because Social Security is a privilege, The Social Security Number may be demanded only when the demand is avoidable, such as when applying for a government granted benefit, or other PRIVILEGE, such as an unemployment claimor a driver's license. To avoid the demand, all one needs to do is not avail oneself of the applied-for privilege.

But my RIGHT to keep and bear arms is NOT a privilege. IT IS A RIGHT. This is why on the federal forms, it says the Social Security Number is OPTIONAL. If they were to demand the number, it would be struck down in the courts as unconstitutional. Believe me, if they even thought for a moment they could demand the SSN for firearms purchses, they would. That they make it optional means there is a very good legal reason why they are FORCED to do so.

The Socialist state of California is doing nothing less than an end run around the Constitution by requiring and allowing only forms of identification that in turn require the use of the SSN, making all gun purchases in that state dependent upon a privilege. Any right that is made subject to a privilege, is no longer a right, but a privilege. It is no different than the government unilaterally declaring that Citizens no longer have gun rights, because under this program, they don't, all they have is a privilege, which the government has every right to deny or rescind, at any time.

I might add that when the refusal to "voluntarily" avail oneself of a state privilege carries with it as a consequence the loss of a fundamental right, then that privilege is no longer "voluntary". It is made mandatory by the unacceptable cost of not "volunteering", which is the loss of rights.

What the government wants, AT ALL COSTS, IS FOR THE ENTIRE POPULATION TO BE ENUMERATED and unarmed, and all our former rights be made subject to providing the number, converting them to privileges.What the government wants is to eliminate ALL inalienable rights, and replace them with privileges, wholly subject to their control. This is the only reason the Social Security Number exists at all, and we are the worst kind of fools for thinking we could bite into the danglingcarrot,tie ourselves to that system, through the number, and not lose our rights, and perhaps everything else we hold dear.

What amazes me most is that so-called gun rightsactivists are not outraged and all over this issue. They say they support individual gun rights, but then they go tepid and limp when it comes to the SSN being so easily connected to exercising the right, which effectively destroys the right and turns it into a mere privilege, which government can thengrant, deny, or rescind on the whim of any petty bureaucrat.

I think people need to study closely the definitions of the words "right" and "privilege" and really come to a clear understanding of the difference, because I suspect that most Americans no longer even know the difference, and that is whay we are losing our rights.
 

Blackburn

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Carnivore wrote:
Blackburn wrote:
Carnivore wrote:
Unless your a Fugitive,if you really want the firearm without changing states of residence, I personally would go ahead and fill in the line for S.S.N. and make my purchase. God knows you won't be the first person to fill in the S.S.N. block and you won't be thelast.. any transaction you make other than Cash can be traced back to you anyway. the electricity /water/credit cards/check book/cameras at traffic lights/practically every business you patronize has you oncamera..

I know I know your rights are being violated,But you do have a right not to purchase a firearm, and thus far thats exactly what your accomplishing..
fail
What the hell are ya hiding
shotgun on a dove hunt.


Typical elitist.
 

Carnivore

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RJB wrote:
I am most definitely NOT a convicted felon, nor am I a fugitive from the law. I have sufficient documentation and personal references that my identity is NOT in doubt to any reasonable person. I am not looking for anonymity, or to be "untraceable". I WANT the government to know I am armed, so that the rest of my rights will be respected. My life is an open book, more so than most, though apparently still not open enough for the criminal fascist government control freaks.

I have a valid U.S. Passport. I have certified copies of my birth certificate. There are public school and university records. I have vehicle title and registration documents. I have fingerprints, which will match perfectly those the government already has on file.

If necessary, I could show up every day at a Notary Public for the period required for establishing legal residency, and have the notary certify my continuous presence in the state for that period. I could phone the DOJ every day and the phone records would show the calls originating in California. I could take a photo of myself standing in front of a Post Office, holding a daily newspaper, every day for the required time period. Etc, etc.There are lots and lots of ways to prove my identity and residency. So why does California only permit two? Because both of them create a demand for an SSN that the law would otherwise prohibit, while the other methods would not!

But why should I send in $20 to pre-screen and waste weeks or months of my time waiting for determination, only to have to do it all over again at purchase? Am I not to be presumed innocent before guilty? Why doesn't the government have to prove anything to me first?

If they say I have the right to keep and bear firearms, then I want them to prove it to me by allowing me to do so, otherwise, why should I believe them? The government always says one thing out one side of its mouth, and the opposite out the other. It is not to be believed, nor trusted.

No, I do not need to waste $20 and up to 3 months of my time "pre-screening" when I KNOW to an absolute undisputable certainty, and can easily provethat I have a RIGHT to keep and bear firearms.

I do not have or use a Social Security Number,which the SSA says no law requires me tohave in order to live and work in my own country, the USA.

I do not have a California Driver's License or I.D. Card, which no law requires me to have to live and work in the USA, including California. Both documents require providing the Social Security Number, which no law requires me to have, in order to obtain, creating an indirect "requirement" that would otherwise be prohibited if it were made directly.

Again, I am in 100% full legal possession of my rights, including those under the 2nd Amendment.

So how is it that the government can ASSUME that I am not in full possession of my rights, subject to me availing myself of one of their many privileges? Isn't some level of evidence, such as Probable Cause, or Reasonable Suspicion, necessary to deprive a Citizen of a fundamental Right?

Because Social Security is a privilege, The Social Security Number may be demanded only when the demand is avoidable, such as when applying for a government granted benefit, or other PRIVILEGE, such as an unemployment claimor a driver's license. To avoid the demand, all one needs to do is not avail oneself of the applied-for privilege.

But my RIGHT to keep and bear arms is NOT a privilege. IT IS A RIGHT. This is why on the federal forms, it says the Social Security Number is OPTIONAL. If they were to demand the number, it would be struck down in the courts as unconstitutional. Believe me, if they even thought for a moment they could demand the SSN for firearms purchses, they would. That they make it optional means there is a very good legal reason why they are FORCED to do so.

The Socialist state of California is doing nothing less than an end run around the Constitution by requiring and allowing only forms of identification that in turn require the use of the SSN, making all gun purchases in that state dependent upon a privilege. Any right that is made subject to a privilege, is no longer a right, but a privilege. It is no different than the government unilaterally declaring that Citizens no longer have gun rights, because under this program, they don't, all they have is a privilege, which the government has every right to deny or rescind, at any time.

I might add that when the refusal to "voluntarily" avail oneself of a state privilege carries with it as a consequence the loss of a fundamental right, then that privilege is no longer "voluntary". It is made mandatory by the unacceptable cost of not "volunteering", which is the loss of rights.

What the government wants, AT ALL COSTS, IS FOR THE ENTIRE POPULATION TO BE ENUMERATED and unarmed, and all our former rights be made subject to providing the number, converting them to privileges.What the government wants is to eliminate ALL inalienable rights, and replace them with privileges, wholly subject to their control. This is the only reason the Social Security Number exists at all, and we are the worst kind of fools for thinking we could bite into the danglingcarrot,tie ourselves to that system, through the number, and not lose our rights, and perhaps everything else we hold dear.

What amazes me most is that so-called gun rightsactivists are not outraged and all over this issue. They say they support individual gun rights, but then they go tepid and limp when it comes to the SSN being so easily connected to exercising the right, which effectively destroys the right and turns it into a mere privilege, which government can thengrant, deny, or rescind on the whim of any petty bureaucrat.

I think people need to study closely the definitions of the words "right" and "privilege" and really come to a clear understanding of the difference, because I suspect that most Americans no longer even know the difference, and that is whay we are losing our rights.


All that said, Do you have a Social Security Number?
 

Blackburn

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Carnivore wrote:
All that said, Do you have a Social Security Number?

Plenty of people don't have SSNs. Just because most parents sign their kids up immediately after birth to get the tax deduction doesn't mean everyone does.

Does it bother you that much that they don't?

BootLicking.jpg
nom nom nom
 

Blackburn

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Carnivore wrote:
Wow that picture does you a little more justice than i had originally assumed of you, I had you pegged more for a C*Ck Sucker !!

Actually, that's meant to beyou.

Keep nom nom nomming those boots.
 

RJB

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Sounds just like the government:

Demand and exercise your rights and instantly become a criminal suspect. What need for privacy if you are doing nothing wrong? What need for guns when the government has better ones and is there to protect you?

As if you have to be doing something wrong just because youare concernedyour rights!

And that is EXACTLY how the government wants people to think. They want you to think that only criminals are concerned for andexercise their rights.

This is totally a$$-backwards thinking for any American who claims to value their own liberty and to respect the rights and liberty of others.

It is the kind of thinking that only benefits the criminals in government who want you to think it. It assumes guilt, rather than presuming innocence, which is SUPPOSEDLY the very basis for our system of law.

Well, do you have curtains on your windows and locks on your doors?

If so, what are YOU hiding?

Since you want to cover your windows and lock your doors, why shouldn't we just assume that it is because you are hiding criminal activity? After all, if you had nothing to hide, you wouldn't need them, would you?
 

RJB

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Mike,

I just read Dittman and it refers again and again to a case in which the individual is an applicant for a driver's license or some professional license, in Dittman's case, an acupuncture license, all of which are issued as PRIVILEGES,and therefore subject to regulation. Rights are not subject to regulation. Nowhere does it address those who are wrongfully being forced to apply for, obtain, use, and provide a SSN in order to exercise a RIGHT.

On that basis, since I am not applying for any license to exercise any privilege, Dittman cannot and does not apply.
 

JSK333

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He's already said several times that he does not have a SSN.

Since you appear to have pointed out the loophole in CA law, it would seem your next step would be State court. Can't you file the paperwork yourself if you cannot afford an attorney?

In the meantime, as others have suggested, a private sale may be a good option if CA doesn't regulate those too yet.
 

Mike

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RJB wrote:
Mike,

I just read Dittman and it refers again and again to a case in which the individual is an applicant for a driver's license or some professional license, in Dittman's case, an acupuncture license, all of which are issued as PRIVILEGES,and therefore subject to regulation. Rights are not subject to regulation. Nowhere does it address those who are wrongfully being forced to apply for, obtain, use, and provide a SSN in order to exercise a RIGHT.

On that basis, since I am not applying for any license to exercise any privilege, Dittman cannot and does not apply.
it is no teh facts that matter - it is the holding. The opinion clearly establishes that the 9th Cir. feels Section 7 is inapplicable to state governments - they are mistaken, but that's the law in federal courts out your way.
 

RJB

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To answer the question, no, I do not "have" a Social Security Number.

I do not believe anyone "has" a SSN. I believe it"has" them.

The numberidentifies an account created by the government, and sitting in a government computer. The computer belongs to the government, as does the account, and the account number. There is no "money" sitting in the account. You are owed NOTHING by the government for any contribution you have made, willingly, or not. Social Security payments areallocated by Congress each year, and they can lawfully decide to pay out absolutely nothing any time they wish. There is no contractual obligation for the U.S. government to pay out anything because it is not a contract, nor is it an "insurance" policy, despite the fact that politicians are constantly saying it it. IT ISN'T. The Supreme Court has ruled that Social Security is just another income tax. PERIOD.

Any Social Security Card says on its back side: "This card is the property of the Social Security Administration and must be returned upon request."

If it was YOUR number, YOUR card, and YOUR account, YOUR money, you could do anything you want with it, so long as no harm is done to anyone else. But it is NOT yours, never was, and never will be, and that is why they can tell you what you can and cannot do with it.

It is not OUR number, it is THEIRS.
 

RJB

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As for private purchases in California, they must all go through licensed gun dealers, and suffer the same requirements.
 

ACEllis

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I worked for a gundealer for a short while in Colorado, and we didn't sell handguns or anything that would be an "assault weapon" to people presenting a Californian ID based purely on the notion that we didn't want it to come back to us from an overzealous bureaucrat.

Bloomberg going after Virginian gun-dealers is a perfect example. But my boss didn't sell to Green card holders either after VT. In the end, it only hurts his bottom line.
 
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