Mike
Site Co-Founder
imported post
ACEllis wrote:
ACEllis wrote:
An actionable equal protection and civil rights violation.
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CA illegally requires SSN for gun purchases
- Thread starter RJB
- Start date
ACEllis
Regular Member
imported post
Mike wrote:
But I doubt the BATEF would care he was refusing to put another firearm into the civilian realm.
Believe me, I hated turning down some people for no other reason. One older fellow I had to regretfully inform told me about his time in the Czechoslovakian Army during the 1968 multi-nation Soviet invasion. He fled to America after the fighting to avoid persecution.I ended up buying the Yugo AK he wanted a few days later. He said it reminded him ofthe one he wasissued decades before.
/I know I went way off topic.
Mike wrote:
I always wondered if it was legal trouble waiting to happen. Private business can refuse services and sales to individuals, but under the guiese of their legal status seemed iffy.
But I doubt the BATEF would care he was refusing to put another firearm into the civilian realm.
Believe me, I hated turning down some people for no other reason. One older fellow I had to regretfully inform told me about his time in the Czechoslovakian Army during the 1968 multi-nation Soviet invasion. He fled to America after the fighting to avoid persecution.I ended up buying the Yugo AK he wanted a few days later. He said it reminded him ofthe one he wasissued decades before.
/I know I went way off topic.
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Ironic how someone with a Green Card, who is ineligible for Social Security canhave standing to bring an equal protection case, but when an American from one state is denied his rights to do the exact same thing, while those from other states and even other countries can expect tohave their rights protected, it goes beyond being outrageous.
I have already been through thisattempting toopen bank accounts. The same banks, banks such as Wells Fargo and Bank of America, that are actively going after illegal aliens, who have no SSN's,to open bank accounts, give themcredit cards, and even mortgages, will not even open a simple non-interest bearing checking account for me, because I will not give them a Social Security Number, which no law requires me to give them. Meanwhile they are glad to open accounts for people who are not even in this country legally, and who do not have Social Security Numbers.
And now you say that non-Citizens have equal protection standing for gun rights, but the government says I don't?
Ironic how someone with a Green Card, who is ineligible for Social Security canhave standing to bring an equal protection case, but when an American from one state is denied his rights to do the exact same thing, while those from other states and even other countries can expect tohave their rights protected, it goes beyond being outrageous.
I have already been through thisattempting toopen bank accounts. The same banks, banks such as Wells Fargo and Bank of America, that are actively going after illegal aliens, who have no SSN's,to open bank accounts, give themcredit cards, and even mortgages, will not even open a simple non-interest bearing checking account for me, because I will not give them a Social Security Number, which no law requires me to give them. Meanwhile they are glad to open accounts for people who are not even in this country legally, and who do not have Social Security Numbers.
And now you say that non-Citizens have equal protection standing for gun rights, but the government says I don't?
KBCraig
Regular Member
imported post
Mike wrote:
That might not win a discrimination lawsuit, but it would certainly be introduced.
Mike wrote:
ATF guidance to dealers is that they may refuse to sell to anyone, at any time, for any reason.
That might not win a discrimination lawsuit, but it would certainly be introduced.
KBCraig
Regular Member
imported post
RJB and/or Blackburn (same? different?):
You're absolutely morally and legally correct. But as you've observed, being "correct" doesn't get you your "rights".
Wish I had a solution for you, other than the obvious: move to a free(er) state, as soon as possible.
RJB and/or Blackburn (same? different?):
You're absolutely morally and legally correct. But as you've observed, being "correct" doesn't get you your "rights".
Wish I had a solution for you, other than the obvious: move to a free(er) state, as soon as possible.
Blackburn
Regular Member
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RJB wrote:
RJB wrote:
People from Argentina tend to be very caucasian. Some of them might not even have a spanish accent. Just a suggestion.
Carnivore
Regular Member
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Blackburn wrote:
Lemme share a little secret with ya GOOBER, I'm as common as dirt, Born and raised in Missouri, along with 5 other brothers, Mom and Dad worked hard to get all us boys raised,fed and clothed, when something needed fixed around the house, or on a family vehicle, My Dad did it all, and had 6 boys right there to share in the work..
I started raising my own family at age 19, and worked hard all these years to raise my own kids, and provide for them, and I don't pay out for someone to do the handy work that needs done on my home or vehicles either, I do it all myself, I've never been out of work, and Iserved my country.I've paid income taxes for 31 years of my short meager exhistance, and will continue to do so until my last breath I suspect and that 9 digit number has been in my wallet sinceage 15 and hasn't caused me any grief.Do you even hold a job and pay taxes in this country you call home with out a social security number, or are you a burden to society?
Blackburn wrote:
Lemme share a little secret with ya GOOBER, I'm as common as dirt, Born and raised in Missouri, along with 5 other brothers, Mom and Dad worked hard to get all us boys raised,fed and clothed, when something needed fixed around the house, or on a family vehicle, My Dad did it all, and had 6 boys right there to share in the work..
I started raising my own family at age 19, and worked hard all these years to raise my own kids, and provide for them, and I don't pay out for someone to do the handy work that needs done on my home or vehicles either, I do it all myself, I've never been out of work, and Iserved my country.I've paid income taxes for 31 years of my short meager exhistance, and will continue to do so until my last breath I suspect and that 9 digit number has been in my wallet sinceage 15 and hasn't caused me any grief.Do you even hold a job and pay taxes in this country you call home with out a social security number, or are you a burden to society?
Mike
Site Co-Founder
imported post
RJB wrote:
Here is a quick primer on equal protection for aliens: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/Ftrials/conlaw/alienage.html.
Your last statement is neither accurate nor helpful. You want to restore Section 7 Federal Privacy Act rights in California but under Dittman this is foreclosed in the 9th Cirucit's distrioct courts. You might try to bring your action in california state court and hope they chose not to follow the 9th Cir.'s ruling.
RJB wrote:
Huh? Besides the fact you conflate two separate legal questions, Green Card holders are permament resident aliens, due the same constitutonal rights as US Citizens, and not only elegible for assignment of SSNs, the IRS and other government agencies expect them to have SSNs even though as a **technical matter**, no law requires Americans (citizens and permament residents) to obtain assignment of an SSN to live, work, go to school, or buy a gun.
Here is a quick primer on equal protection for aliens: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/Ftrials/conlaw/alienage.html.
Your last statement is neither accurate nor helpful. You want to restore Section 7 Federal Privacy Act rights in California but under Dittman this is foreclosed in the 9th Cirucit's distrioct courts. You might try to bring your action in california state court and hope they chose not to follow the 9th Cir.'s ruling.
Blackburn
Regular Member
imported post
Carnivore wrote:
With all due respect for your service, you're still being an arrogant grump.
Not only do I pay taxes, but I employ people, and we're not exactly talking about mexicans either.
"this country you call home with out a social security number"
Who said I didn't have one? Are you saying that someone who doesn't have a SSN shouldn't call our country home? Please, explain your line of thought here.
Carnivore wrote:
With all due respect for your service, you're still being an arrogant grump.
Not only do I pay taxes, but I employ people, and we're not exactly talking about mexicans either.
"this country you call home with out a social security number"
Who said I didn't have one? Are you saying that someone who doesn't have a SSN shouldn't call our country home? Please, explain your line of thought here.
jopencarry
Banned
imported post
socialism security.
worst thing to happen to this country and it will never go away
socialism security.
worst thing to happen to this country and it will never go away
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One would think that no American was a Citizen or a Patriot before the Federal Reserve took over our financial system and gave birth to Social Security and the Income tax, not to pay for the cost of government services, but to cover the interest payments on the perpetual and growing debt their scheme was meant to produce.
The word "taxpayer" does not appear anywhere in the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, nor in the Constitution. The definition of the word "taxpayer" in federal law is "anyone who is liable for any Internal Revenue tax". What this means is that the status of a "taxpayer" does not confer any rights at all, it is just someone who assumes or is assigned a portion of the fraudulent public debt incurred through "borrowing" from the Federal Reserve. How anyone would think that being "liable" for anything somehow creates vested inalienable rights is beyond me. People with liabilities do not have rights, they only have obligations. People who think otherwise need to check their assumptions and rethink their logic.
Our founding documents declare that our rights are GOD-GIVEN, and inalienable. They do NOT come by virtue of us being in the status of DEBTORS, even if that debt is the wholly contrived "national debt".
Our rights are as SOVEREIGNS AND CITIZENS, not as mere "taxpayers", who are only debtors, and whom the Bible says are "servant to the lender". "Taxpayers", being debtors,are servants to the government and the bankers who control it through the issuance of fiat currency and "loaning" it to the government to finance all it's operations.
Taxpayer are not free, they are slaves. A "taxpayer" should be the last thing any true, red-blooded, freedom loving American should ever aspire to be. Ourmain aspiration, second only to being good children of our Creator, should be as CITIZENS, as masters over our servant government, over our own money supply, and as signatories to the binding Social Contract that the Constitution represents.
American Patriots do not aspire to be the servants of the government, but it's masters, and every Citizen the master equally, and over their own lives and property. Anyone who thinks otherwise are poor students of history.
One would think that no American was a Citizen or a Patriot before the Federal Reserve took over our financial system and gave birth to Social Security and the Income tax, not to pay for the cost of government services, but to cover the interest payments on the perpetual and growing debt their scheme was meant to produce.
The word "taxpayer" does not appear anywhere in the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, nor in the Constitution. The definition of the word "taxpayer" in federal law is "anyone who is liable for any Internal Revenue tax". What this means is that the status of a "taxpayer" does not confer any rights at all, it is just someone who assumes or is assigned a portion of the fraudulent public debt incurred through "borrowing" from the Federal Reserve. How anyone would think that being "liable" for anything somehow creates vested inalienable rights is beyond me. People with liabilities do not have rights, they only have obligations. People who think otherwise need to check their assumptions and rethink their logic.
Our founding documents declare that our rights are GOD-GIVEN, and inalienable. They do NOT come by virtue of us being in the status of DEBTORS, even if that debt is the wholly contrived "national debt".
Our rights are as SOVEREIGNS AND CITIZENS, not as mere "taxpayers", who are only debtors, and whom the Bible says are "servant to the lender". "Taxpayers", being debtors,are servants to the government and the bankers who control it through the issuance of fiat currency and "loaning" it to the government to finance all it's operations.
Taxpayer are not free, they are slaves. A "taxpayer" should be the last thing any true, red-blooded, freedom loving American should ever aspire to be. Ourmain aspiration, second only to being good children of our Creator, should be as CITIZENS, as masters over our servant government, over our own money supply, and as signatories to the binding Social Contract that the Constitution represents.
American Patriots do not aspire to be the servants of the government, but it's masters, and every Citizen the master equally, and over their own lives and property. Anyone who thinks otherwise are poor students of history.
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Taxpayers do not have 2nd Amendment rights, just because they are "taxpayers", they have rights, including those under the 2nd Amendment,because they were endowed with them by their Creator, and because, AS CITIZENS, they are guaranteed them by the Constitution.
The misguided notion that people have rights just because they are "taxpayers" is not just misguided, it is DANGEROUS, because it leads people away from any true understanding of the real reasons as to how, where, when, and why they have any rights at all. If you do not understand that, you cannot hope to defend your rights, regardless of whether you have guns or not. All the guns in the worlddo you no good at all if you have no idea who you should be pointing them at. If you do not understand how you got your rights, you cannot recognize when you are losing them, much lessidentify those who are taking them away.
Taxpayers do not have 2nd Amendment rights, just because they are "taxpayers", they have rights, including those under the 2nd Amendment,because they were endowed with them by their Creator, and because, AS CITIZENS, they are guaranteed them by the Constitution.
The misguided notion that people have rights just because they are "taxpayers" is not just misguided, it is DANGEROUS, because it leads people away from any true understanding of the real reasons as to how, where, when, and why they have any rights at all. If you do not understand that, you cannot hope to defend your rights, regardless of whether you have guns or not. All the guns in the worlddo you no good at all if you have no idea who you should be pointing them at. If you do not understand how you got your rights, you cannot recognize when you are losing them, much lessidentify those who are taking them away.
Carnivore
Regular Member
imported post
RJB wrote:
You've taken 1 worg from my reply and pretended as though this whole topic has turned to not having god given rights if you don't pay taxes, so you can let go of thinking thats what I'm trying to drive home, because it's not..
I could care less if you have a S.S.N. and pay taxes or not, I was simply replying to Blackburn as to his misjudgement that I'm an elitist.
that said, I didn't bring up the subject of Greencards/Argentines/caucasions/ or anything racially indicative, so thats a subject I'll leave to the three of ya'll
I just simply replied to if you really want to purchase in Ca. legally, you're gonna have to comply. If I was a California lawmaker thinge would be a lot different out there for sure..
Good day !
RJB wrote:
You've taken 1 worg from my reply and pretended as though this whole topic has turned to not having god given rights if you don't pay taxes, so you can let go of thinking thats what I'm trying to drive home, because it's not..
I could care less if you have a S.S.N. and pay taxes or not, I was simply replying to Blackburn as to his misjudgement that I'm an elitist.
that said, I didn't bring up the subject of Greencards/Argentines/caucasions/ or anything racially indicative, so thats a subject I'll leave to the three of ya'll
I just simply replied to if you really want to purchase in Ca. legally, you're gonna have to comply. If I was a California lawmaker thinge would be a lot different out there for sure..
Good day !
ACEllis
Regular Member
imported post
I KBCraig wrote:
I KBCraig wrote:
I suspected something like this would be the case.
Blackburn
Regular Member
imported post
Carnivore wrote:
No, you turned it into
GOSH DURN IT IF YAAAALL DONT HAVE YER GOL DARN SSNS THEN YEW MUST NAWT BE UHMERICAN CITIZENS.
Carnivore wrote:
No, you turned it into
GOSH DURN IT IF YAAAALL DONT HAVE YER GOL DARN SSNS THEN YEW MUST NAWT BE UHMERICAN CITIZENS.
Carnivore
Regular Member
imported post
Show me a quote where I typed that.
Show me a quote where I typed that.
Blackburn
Regular Member
imported post
"this country you call home with out a social security number"
says it all.
"this country you call home with out a social security number"
says it all.
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Carnivore wrote:
Carnivore wrote:
Carnivore
Regular Member
imported post
Blackburn wrote:
NOT !!
Where's the mention that you're not a citizen without a S.S.N.
Blackburn wrote:
NOT !!
Where's the mention that you're not a citizen without a S.S.N.
imported post
Carnivore said:
"Do you even hold a job and pay taxes in this country you call home with out a social security number, or are you a burden to society?"
Let me first translate the implications of the above statement:
"If you have no SSN, you are a parasite"
Did you know that no SSN is required BY LAW to work or even pay taxes? Only uninformed "sheeple" demand it.
Did you know that there are hundreds of different taxes, and many, if not most, are perfectly reasonable and legitimate, and require no SSN to pay?
Take the gasoline tax. I think it is perfectly reasonable that gasoline be taxed to pay for road construction and maintenance. There is a clear connection of the one to the other, and if you do not want to pay for the roads, all you have to do is not buy gas and not drive on them. Those who drive on them, by all means, should be the ones who pay for them.
Take the property tax. I think it is perfectly reasonable that homeowners be taxed to pay for public schools, local emergency services, and public utilities. They are the ones who are suing those services, and the availability of those services add great value to their homes when they go to sell them.
Take the sales tax. Taxes on the sale of non-essential goods and particularly luxury items, I feel are also perfectly legitimate, because they are locally determined, and can be avoided by simply not purchasing luxury items.
I pay many taxes, including two out of the three categories above, and certainly any and all that I am legally liable for, in any case. I pay some kind of tax every time I spend a penny on almost anything. I work hard for living to support myself and pay those taxes.
Just as the SSA has said, no law requires a Citizen to obtain or use a SSN to live and work in the United States. I take them seriously at their word, and it is unfortunate that most Americans can't face thefacts, because their own cowardice leads them to wrongfully persecute and deny their fellow Citizens of what they have have every right to. In the end, they ignorantly screw themselves as well in the process, making sure we are ALL screwed. Misery loves company.
Those ignorant job providers who turn awayjob applicantsjust because they will not provide a Social Security number, when no law requires it,are the ones breaking the law, not those who only seek an honest day's work in exchange for an honest day's pay without it. I own 100% of my own labor, and am completely within my rights to sell it to whomever I choose, and they have a 100% right to enter into a private contract with me to buy it, the Right to Contract also being protected by the Constitution. I do not need the government's permission, in the form of the SSN, to make private contracts to sell my own labor, in my own country, to private individuals and companies. If I worked for the government as an "employee", or was a government contractor, that would be another story.
So, you see, the list of rights negatively affected by the SSN grows and grows. And more and more, 2nd Amendment rights are now being affected. How long till no one can do anything, or go anywhere, without the damnable number, embedded in a microchip, implanted deeply within your body? If we do not want things to end up there, then we MUST stop it now, by force of arms if necessary. The time to resist is NOW. If we wait until the storm troopers are at the door, with the military medical officer ready to forcibly inject us, then itwill betoo late.
There is a good reason why they have now targeted 2nd Amendment rights for tying to the SSN. It is so that they can control and eventually eliminate those rights, and with them, the ability to successfully resist further encroachments on what little remains of our basic liberty.
Carnivore said:
"Do you even hold a job and pay taxes in this country you call home with out a social security number, or are you a burden to society?"
Let me first translate the implications of the above statement:
"If you have no SSN, you are a parasite"
Did you know that no SSN is required BY LAW to work or even pay taxes? Only uninformed "sheeple" demand it.
Did you know that there are hundreds of different taxes, and many, if not most, are perfectly reasonable and legitimate, and require no SSN to pay?
Take the gasoline tax. I think it is perfectly reasonable that gasoline be taxed to pay for road construction and maintenance. There is a clear connection of the one to the other, and if you do not want to pay for the roads, all you have to do is not buy gas and not drive on them. Those who drive on them, by all means, should be the ones who pay for them.
Take the property tax. I think it is perfectly reasonable that homeowners be taxed to pay for public schools, local emergency services, and public utilities. They are the ones who are suing those services, and the availability of those services add great value to their homes when they go to sell them.
Take the sales tax. Taxes on the sale of non-essential goods and particularly luxury items, I feel are also perfectly legitimate, because they are locally determined, and can be avoided by simply not purchasing luxury items.
I pay many taxes, including two out of the three categories above, and certainly any and all that I am legally liable for, in any case. I pay some kind of tax every time I spend a penny on almost anything. I work hard for living to support myself and pay those taxes.
Just as the SSA has said, no law requires a Citizen to obtain or use a SSN to live and work in the United States. I take them seriously at their word, and it is unfortunate that most Americans can't face thefacts, because their own cowardice leads them to wrongfully persecute and deny their fellow Citizens of what they have have every right to. In the end, they ignorantly screw themselves as well in the process, making sure we are ALL screwed. Misery loves company.
Those ignorant job providers who turn awayjob applicantsjust because they will not provide a Social Security number, when no law requires it,are the ones breaking the law, not those who only seek an honest day's work in exchange for an honest day's pay without it. I own 100% of my own labor, and am completely within my rights to sell it to whomever I choose, and they have a 100% right to enter into a private contract with me to buy it, the Right to Contract also being protected by the Constitution. I do not need the government's permission, in the form of the SSN, to make private contracts to sell my own labor, in my own country, to private individuals and companies. If I worked for the government as an "employee", or was a government contractor, that would be another story.
So, you see, the list of rights negatively affected by the SSN grows and grows. And more and more, 2nd Amendment rights are now being affected. How long till no one can do anything, or go anywhere, without the damnable number, embedded in a microchip, implanted deeply within your body? If we do not want things to end up there, then we MUST stop it now, by force of arms if necessary. The time to resist is NOW. If we wait until the storm troopers are at the door, with the military medical officer ready to forcibly inject us, then itwill betoo late.
There is a good reason why they have now targeted 2nd Amendment rights for tying to the SSN. It is so that they can control and eventually eliminate those rights, and with them, the ability to successfully resist further encroachments on what little remains of our basic liberty.