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Thread: SC - Carrying in a place that serves alcohol

  1. #1
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    Can someone point a different section of the code that says you can't carry in a place that server alcohol if you have a permit.


    SECTION 16-23-465. Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on-premises consumption.
    In addition to the penalties provided for by Sections 16-11-330 and 16-23-460 and by Article 1 of Chapter 23 of Title 16, a person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm into a business which sells alcoholic liquor, beer, or wine for consumption on the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than two thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
    In addition to the penalties described above, a person who violates this section while carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23, must have his concealed weapon permit revoked.
    16-23-465 is in addition to 16-23-460
    SECTION 16-23-460. Carrying concealed weapons; forfeiture of weapons.
    Any person carrying a deadly weapon usually used for the infliction of personal injury concealed about his person is guilty of a misdemeanor, must forfeit to the county, or, if convicted in a municipal court, to the municipality the concealed weapon, and must be fined not less than two hundred dollars nor more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned not less than thirty days nor more than ninety days. Nothing herein contained may be construed to apply to (1) persons carrying concealed weapons upon their own premises or pursuant to and in compliance with Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 23, or (2) peace officers in the actual discharge of their duties. The provisions of this section do not apply to rifles, shotguns, dirks, slingshots, metal knuckles, or razors unless they are used with the intent to commit a crime or in furtherance of a crime.
    16-23-460 says it doesn't apply if you have a CWP.
    16-11-330 is about robbery. Where is the section that says you can't carry in a restaurant that sells alcohol with a CWP or am I interpreting this wrong?

  2. #2
    mdgary
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    I did notsee where it said "does not apply to CWP" Restaurant Carry

    Click on Each State For Details


    I asked this question sept.14,2008

    South Carolina bans carry in restaurants that serve alcohol,
    but they don't serve alcohol on sunday so my question is:

    Can I carry in the restaurants on sundays sense they can't serve

    alcohol?1swellguy answered

    The only section (that I can find) of the SC Code of laws that mentions possession of firearms in an establishment which serves alcohol is this one:

    SECTION 16-23-465. Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on-premises consumption.
    In addition to the penalties provided for by Sections 16-11-330 and 16-23-460 and by Article 1 of Chapter 23 of Title 16, a person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm into a business which sells alcoholic liquor, beer, or wine for consumption on the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than two thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
    In addition to the penalties described above, a person who violates this section while carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23, must have his concealed weapon permit revoked.
    Notice that 16-23-465 says that it is an "additional penalty." This means for someone who has been convicted of violating the sections of law listed (16-11-330 and 16-23-460 and 16-23 Article 1), none of which involve alcohol. See below.

    SECTION 16-23-460. Carrying concealed weapons; forfeiture of weapons.
    Any person carrying a deadly weapon usually used for the infliction of personal injury concealed about his person is guilty of a misdemeanor, must forfeit to the county, or, if convicted in a municipal court, to the municipality the concealed weapon, and must be fined not less than two hundred dollars nor more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned not less than thirty days nor more than ninety days. Nothing herein contained may be construed to apply to (1) persons carrying concealed weapons upon their own premises or pursuant to and in compliance with Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 23, or (2) peace officers in the actual discharge of their duties. The provisions of this section do not apply to rifles, shotguns, dirks, slingshots, metal knuckles, or razors unless they are used with the intent to commit a crime or in furtherance of a crime.

    I am not a lawyer. I do not know the answer to your specific question, but I can bet any law enforcement would still arrest someone for carrying in an establishment that serves alcohol.



  3. #3
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    "business which sells alcoholic liquor" is not limited to 'on the day in question'.

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    Here is an interesting twist to the discussion. I add it here simply to generate discussion on the subject. A friend of mine who works at the SC Dept of Revenue shared this with me.

    SECTION 61-4-10. Nonalcoholic beverages defined.
    The following are declared to be nonalcoholic and nonintoxicating beverages:
    (1) all beers, ales, porters, and other similar malt or fermented beverages containing not in excess of five percent of alcohol by weight;
    (2) all beers, ales, porters, and other similar malt or fermented beverages containing more than five percent but less than fourteen percent of alcohol by weight that are manufactured, distributed, or sold in containers of six and one-half ounces or more or the metric equivalent; and
    (3) all wines containing not in excess of twenty-one percent of alcohol by volume.
    The SC Code of Law defines "Nonalcoholic beverages" in the above section. I'm told there are different types of liquor licenses in SC, like one just for selling beer & wine or for hard liquor & mixed drinks etc. Most oriental restaurants for example, have a license to serve beer & wine only.

    Different sections of law can "define" the same term differently, but there is no definition of "alcoholic beverages" in the CWP law. So what can we infer from this? Does this mean that restaurants in SC which sell beer & wine (but not hard liquor) do not fall under "business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on-premises consumption" as noted in Section 16-23-465 ?

    This could generate some lively and interesting discussion here.

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    Interesting fact but flawed unless I am missing something. The only place I can find referencing carrying with with or without a permit into a place that sells alcohol is 16-23-465 which says

    Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on-premises consumption.


    This Section is and Additional Penalty for violating Section 16-23-460 and does cover Beer and Wine. However Section 16-23-460 says:

    Nothing herein contained may be construed to apply to (1) persons carrying concealed weapons upon their own premises or pursuant to and in compliance with Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 23,


    This would infer to me that neither 16-23-460 or 16-23-465 apply to someone holding a CWP.

    Is there another law covering the carry of weapons either with or without a permit in the SC Code? This is the only reference I can find on it.

    I know that the AG's office issued a statement on it a while back and I read it. However I could not tell if they ever said that it really was illegalas they pointed to the intent of the Legilature severl times and made several references to it rather that stating that it was actually in the law. I have heard through the grapevine that the AG has told Highway Patrolmen and SLED officers not to make arrests for this as it was unenforcable and they did not want to try and test it in court.

  6. #6
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    SECTION 16-23-465. Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on-premises consumption.
    In addition to the penalties provided for by Sections 16-11-330 and 16-23-460 and by Article 1 of Chapter 23 of Title 16, a person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm into a business which sells alcoholic liquor, beer, or wine for consumption on the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than two thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
    In addition to the penalties described above, a person who violates this section while carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23, must have his concealed weapon permit revoked.


    The first sentence states "unlawfully carrying a pistol or firearm",If you have a permit then you are LAWFULLY carrying a pistol or firearm.

    So why does the last sentence state "must have his CWP revoked?

    My guess would be that women can carry in such places without having HER permit

    revoked,Sense it only states HIS meaning a MALE.

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    SECTION 61-4-10. Nonalcoholic beverages defined. The following are declared to be nonalcoholic and nonintoxicating beverages: (1) all beers, ales, porters, and other similar malt or fermented beverages containing not in excess of five percent of alcohol by weight;
    Beers range from 1% Alcohol By Volume, to the vast majority at 4% - 6% ABV to ~20% but I don't know how the yeasts might be kept alive to get that high.

    (3) all wines containing not in excess of twenty-one percent of alcohol by volume.
    Depending on the meaning of 'is'...no, no, I mean 'wine', only fortified wines can get above ~14% ABV.

    I have had wine in an individual serving box of 500 ml (travels in a pannier great!) and know that there are 4-packs of 6-ish oz. screw tops marketed but the vast majority of wines are sold in 750 ml. (3/4 liter) bottles or larger.

    Note that these products are defined by law to not be alcoholic.



  8. #8
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    mdgary wrote:
    SECTION 16-23-465. Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on-premises consumption.
    In addition to the penalties provided for by Sections 16-11-330 and 16-23-460 and by Article 1 of Chapter 23 of Title 16, a person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm into a business which sells alcoholic liquor, beer, or wine for consumption on the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than two thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
    In addition to the penalties described above, a person who violates this section while carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23, must have his concealed weapon permit revoked.


    The first sentence states "unlawfully carrying a pistol or firearm",If you have a permit then you are LAWFULLY carrying a pistol or firearm.

    So why does the last sentence state "must have his CWP revoked?

    My guess would be that women can carry in such places without having HER permit

    revoked,Sense it only states HIS meaning a MALE.
    Good catch there. I can't figure it out either so your interpretation makes about as much sense and anything else. I think I have the AG letter at home so I will try to post it tonight.

  9. #9
    mdgary
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    This alcohol law is BS .I don't drink any alcoholic beverages and alcohol has never and will never control any aspect of my personal life. That said, What would be safer a law abiding citizen with a gun permit and a gun in a bar that serves alcohol,Or a person that sits atthebar and gets drunk and drives his own drunk ass home?





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    South Carolina bans carry in restaurants that serve alcohol,
    but they don't serve alcohol on sunday so my question is:

    Can I carry in the restaurants on sundays sense they can't serve

    alcohol?
    ...premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on-premises consumption.
    Seems to me that if a business is prohibited from selling on Sunday, then they aren't selling and no one on the premises is consuming. The business does not fit that description on that day.

    JMO, though. I'm not an attorney.


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    Pamiam wrote:
    South Carolina bans carry in restaurants that serve alcohol,
    but they don't serve alcohol on sunday so my question is: Can I carry in the restaurants on sundays sense they can't serve alcohol?
    ...premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on-premises consumption.
    Seems to me that if a business is prohibited from selling on Sunday, then they aren't selling and no one on the premises is consuming. The business does not fit that description on that day. JMO, though. I'm not an attorney.
    I believe that businesses licensed for sale of alcohol for on premises consumption are prohibited to armed citizens, whether or not it's for sale or not or being consumed or not. There is a reason for attorneys.

  12. #12
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    There is also the issue of the "additional penalty" verbiage and being tied in with the other statutes, specifically criminal issues such as robbery.

    I do have a personal "expert" contact on this subject, and have sent an email inquiry.

    If someone legitimately and soberly used a firearm in such an establishment in a bona fide self defense situation, I can't imagine an SC jury penalizing them for it, legal technicalities notwithstanding.

    Sidenote: I've been an SC resident for 11 years and have yet to serve on a jury. I'm thinking about asking for an application at this point. lol


  13. #13
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    Got the reply back from my "expert" contact. In a nutshell, he says "Nope. Can't do that".

    Snarl. That's just wrong.


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    Pamiam wrote:
    Sidenote: I've been an SC resident for 11 years and have yet to serve on a jury. I'm thinking about asking for an application at this point. lol
    Do you play the lottery? The probabilities are comparable.

    You have no chance of winning a lottery if you don't play. Your chances are only slightly improved if you do play. Consider a state sized lottery in which the chance of winning before you play is 1/3,000,000. After you buy your ticket your chance is now 1/3,000,001. YMMV

    Jury pools are drawn from the largest population samples possible with adequate contact data. I was SC resident for thirty+ years and in three jury pools and empaneled twice.

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    I have been eligible to serve on a jury not for about 40 years and have been summoned about 10 times and actuallyserved forabout a dozen cases. One year I was summoned twice and told the judge that I had just served six months earlier. She said sorry but that was a different court. My wife is to scheduled to serve on a case Friday morning but I expect that case to be pled without a trial at the last minute.

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    OK, I had to go research this for myself. I found it amazingly un-SC like that one cannot carry into a restaurant simply because it has a bar.

    Here is what I found:

    Section 16, which is about "Crimes and Offenses", -23-465 actually says, "Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on-premises consumption: In addition to the penalties provided for by Sections 16-11-330 and 16-23-460 and by Article 1 of Chapter 23 of Title 16, a person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm into a business which sells alcoholic liquor, beer, or wine for consumption on the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than two thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

    Section 16-11-330: Robbery and attempted robbery while armed with deadly weapon: http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t16c011.htm


    Section 16-23-460: Any person carrying a deadly weapon usually used for the infliction of personal injury concealed about his person is guilty of a misdemeanor, must forfeit to the county, or, if convicted in a municipal court, to the municipality the concealed weapon, and must be fined not less than two hundred dollars nor more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned not less than thirty days nor more than ninety days. Nothing herein contained may be construed to apply to (1) persons carrying concealed weapons upon their own premises or pursuant to and in compliance with Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 23, or...

    Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 2
    3
    lists the rules and regs on CWP.
    Section 23-31-215 (M) contains a list of places where cc is prohibited to CWP holders, and establishments which serve alcohol is not on the list. http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t23c031.htm

    Further, Article 6, further down the page,speaks to using a firearm while under the influence: http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t23c031.htm


    [line]
    The way I'm reading this, establishments which serve alcohol are not on the prohibited list for cwp holders. However, if one commits a crime with a firearm in such an establishment, additional penalties are provided by law, cwp notwithstanding. Further penalties are assessed if using a firearm while under the influence.

    Am I confused?


  17. #17
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    Pamiam wrote:
    OK, I had to go research this for myself. I found it amazingly un-SC like that one cannot carry into a restaurant simply because it has a bar.

    Here is what I found:

    Section 16, which is about "Crimes and Offenses", -23-465 actually says, "Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on-premises consumption: In addition to the penalties provided for by Sections 16-11-330 and 16-23-460 and by Article 1 of Chapter 23 of Title 16, a person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm into a business which sells alcoholic liquor, beer, or wine for consumption on the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than two thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

    Section 16-11-330: Robbery and attempted robbery while armed with deadly weapon: http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t16c011.htm


    Section 16-23-460: Any person carrying a deadly weapon usually used for the infliction of personal injury concealed about his person is guilty of a misdemeanor, must forfeit to the county, or, if convicted in a municipal court, to the municipality the concealed weapon, and must be fined not less than two hundred dollars nor more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned not less than thirty days nor more than ninety days. Nothing herein contained may be construed to apply to (1) persons carrying concealed weapons upon their own premises or pursuant to and in compliance with Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 23...

    Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 2
    3
    lists the rules and regs on CWP.
    Section 23-31-215 (M) contains a list of places where cc is prohibited to CWP holders, and establishments which serve alcohol is not on the list. http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t23c031.htm

    Further, Article 6, further down the page,speaks to using a firearm while under the influence: http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t23c031.htm


    [line]
    The way I'm reading this, establishments which serve alcohol are not on the prohibited list for cwp holders. However, if one commits a crime with a firearm in such an establishment, additional penalties are provided by law, cwp notwithstanding. Further penalties are assessed if using a firearm while under the influence.

    Am I confused?

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    You have hit upon what was in the OP and I have heard that the SCAG has told the State LEO not to arrest anyone for carrying in a bar with a CWP that the law was unenforceable. I thought that I had the AG opinion on it but cannot find it.

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    I may give SLED a call next week and ask them about it, just for confirmation.

    I have asked some CWP instructors, and they are teaching that it is unlawful.



  20. #20
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    CWP instructors will teach CYA.

    If you are going to go out on a limb they certainly do not want their name used in court...bad business.



    I agree with that stance, I think it is legal for us, as CWP holders. I have herd there was a "formal" interpretation of the law, that said otherwise.

    I saw the post but do not recall which site it was from. Let us know...

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    Its time to step up and call the legislators. The session is about to begin. We all know about the open carry bill thats being introduced. Many of us are of the mind that it wont pass but there are other things we can get done this year. Rest. carry is one thing we should be able to get done. Picking up our kids at school is another.

    Im ready to make the effort.

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    I'm with you.

    I never did make that call. Life got in the way. But it is still on my todo list. I'll post when I have more info.


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    would it be possible to post the names and email addresses of our elected officials per the districts that they repesent, so that we can contact these people about OC and carrying in restaurants, etc....???? :what:

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    should have made this statement before sending the last one.... here in Easley, my State Senator is Larry Martin (great guy) and my State Rep is Rex Rice, he never answered any of my emails, so i can't tell you if he's a 2nd Amendment supporter or not. so if any of you live in this area, contact them. :celebrate

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    dan-da-man wrote:
    would it be possible to post the names and email addresses of our elected officials per the districts that they repesent, so that we can contact these people about OC and carrying in restaurants, etc....???? :what:
    http://www.scstatehouse.gov/countyde.../cntymast.html

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