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Thread: Something from the Norfolk City Council meeting that bothered me..

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    For those of you that were at the council meeting on Tuesday, how do you feel about the individual that told the council that "Sigmond Freud said that fear of weapons is a sign of sexual retardation" (or something to the like)?

    Personally, it bothered me on many levels. Others?

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    "Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual immaturity"

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    I thought it was retarded for him to say that. When I saw it on the news clip, I cringed. He should have had someone proof read his "speech" prior to actually delivering it. IMHO.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I had an opportunity to speak with the individual prior to the meeting. He stated that he was not "up to speed" with what was going on and what the history of NPD and City Council was. I introduced him to Philip and a few others who discussed specifics and isues with him for a few minutes. He and I spoke for another few seconds concerning the number of trips to City Council meetings to express concern/displeasure about the behavior of the NPD.

    From my short conversation with him I got the impression that he was upset not only about how NPD had treated Dan Moore, but about something else to do with how the City Council was or was not doing what he saws the Council's "job" - a word he used several times.

    My impression was that he was unacustomed to public speaking, was quite upset about a number of things that City Council had done or not done, and was in search of a quick way of telling City Council how he felt. My impression, again, was that he "grabbed" for and used the Freudian comment instead of using much more socially inappropriate words.

    My never-humble opinion was that his statement hurt the "cause" much less than the ramblings of the gentleman who was desparately trying to see things from every possible side and not pick a side himself. This was the gentleman who, among other things, suggested that HRT bus drivers be issued CHPs and carry "because of the bad things that happen on buses."

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    Reverend73 wrote:
    I thought it was retarded for him to say that. When I saw it on the news clip, I cringed. He should have had someone proof read his "speech" prior to actually delivering it. IMHO.
    I had the exact same reaction when I saw the video.

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    It's true. Fear ofweapons is a sign of sexual immaturity'. This is the reason politicianswill screw you at every opportunity without your consent or knowledge. They get their jollies... and you get... nothing.

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    bayboy42 wrote:
    For those of you that were at the council meeting on Tuesday, how do you feel about the individual that told the council that "Sigmond Freud said that fear of weapons is a sign of sexual retardation" (or something to the like)?

    Personally, it bothered me on many levels. Others?
    How did it bother you? You're not going anti on us are you?

    And did Freud actually say that fear of weapons is a sign of sexual retardation? That kook!

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    bayboy42 wrote:
    For those of you that were at the council meeting on Tuesday, how do you feel about the individual that told the council that "Sigmond Freud said that fear of weapons is a sign of sexual retardation" (or something to the like)?

    Personally, it bothered me on many levels. Others?
    How did it bother you? You're not going anti on us are you?

    And did Freud actually say that fear of weapons is a sign of sexual retardation? That kook!
    I believe what he said was "immature", although I have never verified the quote. But either way I agree that it is immaturity at least if not sexual, just plain immaturity. I remember the first time I picked up a gun that a friend had bought specifically for self protection, ie to shoot someone. I'd handled guns for years, and loved to shoot. But when I picked it up it was like an electric shock went through me and I had to set it back down again. It bothered me, the idea of killing someone with it, but I also recognized that this was immature, that in this world there really is evil and sometimes the only way to deal with it is to kill it. I now carry a deadly weapon everywhere.

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      • This is not a statement that appears in any translation of any of Freud's works. It is a paraphrase of a statement from the essay "Guns, Murders, and the Constitution" (February 1990) by Don B. Kates, Jr. where Kates summarizes his views of passages in Dreams in Folklore (1958) by Freud and David E. Oppenheim, while disputing statements by Emmanuel Tanay in "Neurotic Attachment to Guns" in a 1976 edition of The Fifty Minute Hour: A Collection of True Psychoanalytic Tales (1955) by Robert Mitchell Lindner:




      Dr. Tanay is perhaps unaware of — in any event, he does not cite — other passages more relevant to his argument. In these other passages Freud associates retarded sexual and emotional development not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons. The probative importance that ought to be attached to the views of Freud is, of course, a matter of opinion. The point here is only that those views provide no support for the penis theory of gun ownership.

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    I was furious.

    That bozo did nothing at all to help us. Instead he gave our opponents a stick to beat us with, and they'll certainly use it.

    BTW, Freud probably did NOT say that. See http://instapundit.com/archives2/004388.php

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    When I saw the video, I was really hoping that he wasnt with you guys.....was he wearing a sticker?
    James Reynolds

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    Whether or not Freud said that, the psychodynamic approach to psychology is retarded in and of itself.

    I'm hoping the individual realized that didn't help.

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    mpg9999 wrote:
    Reverend73 wrote:
    I thought it was retarded for him to say that.* When I saw it on the news clip, I cringed.** He should have had someone proof read his "speech" prior to actually delivering it.* IMHO.
    I had the exact same reaction when I saw the video.*
    Same reaction here, too.

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    Well, funny thing about freedom: you can't control what comes out of other peoples' mouths. Any time you do something like this in public, you run the risk of a wild card speaker saying something you wish he wouldn't. About the only thing you can do is try to be careful of who you asociate with, and try to talk to people afterwards and persuade them to coordinate with friends in the future. But you can't force him.

    When we showed up with ~400 people in Richmond on Lobby Day, I admit I had some apprehension about what would happen. Surely in that many people there must be a crackpot or two? Things worked out pretty well, though, only one guy started to say something dumb and the folks around him talked him out of it. But I don't think you can expect to get that lucky every time.

    Just roll with it and do your best.

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    You can lead a horse to water... I told him, push-come-to-shove, to just say he agree with what everyone else had said.

    I don't remember Freud being brought up by anyone else.

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    VCDL President wrote:
    You can lead a horse to water... I told him, push-come-to-shove, to just say he agree with what everyone else had said.

    I don't remember Freud being brought up by anyone else.
    You cant hold everyone's hand Phil
    James Reynolds

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    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sigmund...#Misattributed
    • A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.
      • This is not a statement that appears in any translation of any of Freud's works. It is a paraphrase of a statement from the essay "Guns, Murders, and the Constitution" (February 1990) by Don B. Kates, Jr. where Kates summarizes his views of passages in Dreams in Folklore (1958) by Freud and David E. Oppenheim, while disputing statements by Emmanuel Tanay in "Neurotic Attachment to Guns" in a 1976 edition of The Fifty Minute Hour: A Collection of True Psychoanalytic Tales (1955) by Robert Mitchell Lindner:
    Dr. Tanay is perhaps unaware of — in any event, he does not cite — other passages more relevant to his argument. In these other passages Freud associates retarded sexual and emotional development not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons. The probative importance that ought to be attached to the views of Freud is, of course, a matter of opinion. The point here is only that those views provide no support for the penis theory of gun ownership. Due to misreading of this essay and its citations, this paraphrase of an opinion about Freud's ideas has been wrongly attributed to Freud himself, and specifically to his 10th Lecture "Symbolism in Dreams" in General Introduction to Psychoanalysis on some internet forum pages: alt.quotations, uk.politics.guns, talk.politics.guns, can.talk.guns , etc.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    When we showed up with ~400 people in Richmond on Lobby Day, I admit I had some apprehension about what would happen. Surely in that many people there must be a crackpot or two? Things worked out pretty well, though, only one guy started to say something dumb and the folks around him talked him out of it. But I don't think you can expect to get that lucky every time.

    Just roll with it and do your best.
    There was one guy mocking their singing, which I thought improper of good social discourse. Remember the really bad feedback they were having with their PA system? I tried to get them to move the speakers in "front" of their microphones, which should have solved the problem, but no one listened. Overcome evil with good is the old saying.

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    marshaul wrote:
    mpg9999 wrote:
    Reverend73 wrote:
    I thought it was retarded for him to say that. When I saw it on the news clip, I cringed. He should have had someone proof read his "speech" prior to actually delivering it. IMHO.
    I had the exact same reaction when I saw the video.
    Same reaction here, too.
    I picked this post almost at random--there are several posts that would work. I fail to see how anybody could cringe at the statement on the video. (Which I watched, by the way.) While Freud didn't specifically say what the gentleman thought he did, who among us could possibly think that fear of weapons is NOT a sign of immaturity after reading a few of the hysterical anti-gun screeds that pop up from time to time?

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    Flyer22 wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    mpg9999 wrote:
    Reverend73 wrote:
    I thought it was retarded for him to say that. When I saw it on the news clip, I cringed. He should have had someone proof read his "speech" prior to actually delivering it. IMHO.
    I had the exact same reaction when I saw the video.
    Same reaction here, too.
    I picked this post almost at random--there are several posts that would work. I fail to see how anybody could cringe at the statement on the video. (Which I watched, by the way.) While Freud didn't specifically say what the gentleman thought he did, who among us could possibly think that fear of weapons is NOT a sign of immaturity after reading a few of the hysterical anti-gun screeds that pop up from time to time?
    It's not about the truth of the statement, it's about how it came off.

    This wasn't a meeting of gun-owners sitting around congratulating each other on how right we are, it was a meeting to convince other people to respect our position. Since the audience is implicitly people who are not in agreement with us, it would behoove us to consider our speech from their perspective.

    And from the perspective of someone who doesn't already agree that fear of weapons is a sign of sexual immaturity, him saying that would come off as a childish and insulting, not as a valid point. Trust me; I'm inclined to agree with the alleged Freud quote, and it still came off as childish and insulting to me. That is not the way to win over an audience. And remember, that was the point: to convince an audience, not deliver self-congratulatory monologues.

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    marshaul (13 October 2008 Monday 03:00) says:

    That is not the way to win over an audience. And remember, that was the point: to convince an audience, not deliver self-congratulatory monologues.
    Thank you.

    I mean no offense to the gentleman who made the remark under discussion; not everyone speaks well in public (or at all). Still, there are situations where if one is not good at something, perhaps one should not do it -- even if it is one's right to do so.

    Unless there's a really interesting October surprise on the horizon, it looks like we're in for an Obama presidency. Whatever else that means, it can't be good for RKBA, and IMHSHO there's going to need to be a lot of grassroots work just to stay where we are now. Put simply, we need more people to be on our side. Calling them names won't help -- maybe especially if the names are true.

    If you haven't read Raging Against Self Defense by Dr. Sarah Thompson, I think it would be worth your time. Note especially what Dr. Thompson says about dealing with fearful anti-RKBA people. Maybe they shouldn't be afraid of us, but they are. We need them to be less afraid, not more.

    There is absolutely no reason whatever that one can't be courteous and reasonable while holding strongly to one's position. It is particularly good for our side for the general public to perceive people who walk around with visible firearms as courteous and reasonable. You don't have to dress like a yuppie or apologize for exercising your rights, but staying polite and reasonable will do much more for Our Side than some of the alternatives.

    Courtesy and reason. They're not the law, they're just Really Good Ideas. Especially if you are armed.

    regards,

    GR

    PS: As to famous quotations ... has anyone actually seen that Freud quotation in an unabridged copy of Freud's works? Using bogus quotes or statistics, however inadvertently, can blow your credibility like you wouldn't believe. We don't need that either.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sigmund...#Misattributed
    • A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.
      • This is not a statement that appears in any translation of any of Freud's works. It is a paraphrase of a statement from the essay "Guns, Murders, and the Constitution" (February 1990) by Don B. Kates, Jr. where Kates summarizes his views of passages in Dreams in Folklore (1958) by Freud and David E. Oppenheim, while disputing statements by Emmanuel Tanay in "Neurotic Attachment to Guns" in a 1976 edition of The Fifty Minute Hour: A Collection of True Psychoanalytic Tales (1955) by Robert Mitchell Lindner:

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    While reading this thread the image that came to my mind was one of every VCDL member standing up a speaking for a moment in front of City Council.

    Some would prepare and rehearse their three minute speech.

    Most would stand up and speak a well though out sentence or two. Short and to the point.

    Some would simply approach the microphone and state that they agree with everything that VCDL members have said.

    Could you imagine the difference if we had 50+ people speaking! Say ten well rehearsed three minute speeches, thirty short and to the point, and ten more just to say they agree!



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    Gentleman Ranker wrote:
    marshaul (13 October 2008 Monday 03:00) says:

    That is not the way to win over an audience. And remember, that was the point: to convince an audience, not deliver self-congratulatory monologues.
    but staying polite and reasonable will do much more for Our Side than some of the alternatives.
    I was going to say something else but I have to say I agree. Polity is a foremost character of civil society. I've heard somewhere that manners is a consideration for the feelings of others. How would you feel if someone didn't fairly consider your thoughts on a subject or unfairly made light of them? (LEO229 does not actually wear short short hot pants! AFAIK) Being "polite" is always being cognizant of others.

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    Even if Freud had said it, it was a bad cite to authority. Freud has been much maligned by throughout the psychological and psychiatric professions and educational venues. The majority of people who have had a college psych class or have read Psychology Today have heard Freud dismissed as misogynistic and irrelevant without any attempt to place his theories in the historical context of his being on the vanguard of a new scientific approach to mental health and understanding (yes, I was a psych major and am an admirer of Freud and have read most all of his English translated works).

    The point is that among the more formally educated people who would be inclined to be anti-gun, Freud is very much likely to be seen as a false authority rather than a trusted authority. It would be loosely akin to an anti-gunner using Sarah Brady as an authority to influence the opinions of 2A supporters. The moment the abhorrent authority is cited the entire point and the speaker himself are dismissed in the minds of listeners. So I too agree that the quote, even if it were accurate, was less than helpful. The fact that it is not entirely accurate on top of citing to a likely noxious authority for the audience makes it even less helpful. Clearly the man had no malicious intent to our cause making his comment unfortunate rather than something else.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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