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Thread: USCCA Concealed Carry Magazine endorses open carry

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    CCM, a very concealed-friendly magazine, published a two-page article from Mark Walters, a Georgia CCW citizen, in their October 2008 issue. Walters refers to OCDO at least three times, and encourages others who CCW in legal OCW states to OC at least some of the time. He makes a case for education of LE and other citizens, and reminds everyone that their rights are important. Great article, seems like at least some of us CCWers are starting to try to unify with the OC crowd.

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    I just received my issue today and made a reference to it elsewhere on this forum. This was the time that I've seen any magazine with the guts to address open carry as a possibility. All the others say that you are nuts to open carry. He also gave this forum a thumbs-up.

    open4years

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    ToJas wrote:
    CCM, a very concealed-friendly magazine, published a two-page article from Mark Walters,
    [/b]Well it is published by the United States Concealed Carry Association

    This article from a few yrs ago in USCCA/CCM slams OC'ers.
    Packing.org is now defunct.



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    Concealed Carry vs. Open Carry
    Maria Heil


    In September I attended the 19th annual Gun Rights Policy Conference (GRPC). The conference was held in Arlington, Virginia, at the Crystal City Marriott.
    Some attendees wanted to openly carry their firearms during the conference. Now, this seems perfectly logical when you think about it. We were attending a gun conference, and they could legally carry open, so, why not?


    According to the Packing.org website-“In Virginia, one may carry a handgun in the open with no license. Loaded handguns on the seat or dashboard in plain view while in a vehicle are fine. Carrying concealed in places that serve alcohol is prohibited, even licensed, but open carry there is allowed.” Additionally-“Places off-limits while carrying… Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited.”

    There had been an incident in Fairfax, VA just a short time prior to the conference. Two men, apparently in transit to or from a shooting range walked into either a Starbucks or a Subway (reports vary), with their firearms strapped on their sides. Well, the short of it was that people called the police. Not knowing exactly the finer points of the handgun laws, the police confiscated the guns. Needless to say, once word got out and the exact meaning of the law was made known to the officers, the guns were returned.

    So, the people practicing open carry at the conference were less than pleased when they were asked to conceal their handguns. The request apparently came from the hotel, which was within its legal right to make such a request. This resulted in many discussions during the rest of the conference.
    Two “camps” seemed to emerge within the conference, which is very indicative of the gun community itself.

    One camp strives to have, and practice open carry in every state of the nation, while being allowed the concealed carry option as well. The other camp strives to have concealed carry in every state, with open carry being only a secondary concern.
    Most in the open carry camp want to have what they call “Vermont-style carry.”
    According to the Packing.org website, “Vermont is unique in that permits are not required for carry concealed or unconcealed for resident and non-resident alike. Local ordinances vary, though. VT has no statutes concerning concealed carry, nor is there a specific statute that allows it. In the absence of a statute that prohibits it, then it is taken that there is no law against it.”

    Most in the concealed carry camp see a problem with the law, or more specifically, the lack of a law regarding the carrying of firearms in Vermont. Since there is no state law supporting the right to carry, there very well could come the day that the legislature makes a law AGAINST the right to carry. There has to be a law in order to protect the right from those who would infringe upon it.
    While open carry is actually legal in a number of states, is it really a good idea to do so?
    This question was a point of unofficial debate at the conference.
    The open carry camp saw carrying in the open as an opportunity to show others that just because one has a gun, one isn’t intent on committing a crime. Actually, they said that it was one way to show people that gun owners are normal people, and also as a way of initiating dialogue.
    Now, let me tell you what I think, from the prospective of a woman and a mother. First of all, let me say that I conceal carry everywhere I can. I also openly carry only on my property.


    If I was in a Starbucks or a Subway with my children, and men walked in with firearms openly carried, I would probably try to get the kids the heck out of there while I was calling the police. If I were there without the kids, I would probably be watching the armed men very closely while simultaneously preparing myself for confrontation and making my way towards the door. I certainly wouldn’t take time to stop and chat!

    Think about it! What would your reaction truly be? Most likely, if you’re reading this magazine, you own a gun. Can you imagine what the reaction would be from some women or mothers (or even some men) who only know about firearms through the mass media? Odds are it would not be a positive reaction that would initiate informative dialogue.

    The reality of life is that bad people use guns to do bad things. Of course, most of us who own firearms know that firearms are used far more often to prevent crime than they are ever used to commit crime. However, you can’t effectively make that point while scaring the daylights out of people.

    Thanks to 9-11-01, you can now throw in the fact that more people today are looking for suspicious people. This heightened awareness makes people even more nervous when they see an armed person somewhere they don’t expect to see one. Personally, I think openly carrying your firearm anywhere but the range or on your private property is a mistake. When people are scared at the sight of a gun, that impression stays with them, and then damage has been done to the reputation of all gun owners.

    Concealed carry, on the other hand, can actually help improve the reputation of all gun owners. First of all, when someone who was carrying concealed stops a crime, it makes all gun owners look like heroes. In such a situation, the criminal did not know there was an armed person, nor did the other people present. Most often, the result in such a case is that the criminal is thwarted and any other people are made safe thanks to a gun they did not even know was present. Even a liberal anti-gunner (maybe deep, deep down) would be happy that a concealed gun had been present when he or she had been at the mercy of a criminal.

    So, what we have is open carry, in which probably 90% of the time could result in a negative perception of gun owners, versus concealed carry, in which probably 90% of the time results in no change in perception of gun owners what so ever. Then there is the estimated 8-9% of the time that concealed carry results in a very favorable perception of gun owners when the gun is used to stop a crime.

    Open carry = 90% negative perception, and maybe 9% where people actually start a dialogue (depending upon where the open carry takes place). Concealed carry = 90% no change in perception and 8-9% positive perception (again, depending upon the specific situation).

    I’ll stick with concealed carry and try to change people’s minds about guns through my grassroots activism. For most of four years I was ‘the face’ associated with Second Amendment Sisters. I personally have been told by a number of women that because they heard me on the radio, or saw me on TV, they were motivated to either change their minds, or become more vocal in preserving our rights. They saw me as a very normal everyday person, like them, and that’s what will help us in this battle to save our Second Amendment rights.

    I guess what I’m saying is that ‘in your face’ doesn’t benefit our side nearly as well as ‘in your mind’. So, don’t ‘get in their faces’, rather, get in their minds!
    Maria Heil is the mother of three teenagers and one pre-teen. She is also the former National Spokesperson for the Second Amendment Sister




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    EDIT:
    I needed to make a few changes to my comments.

    [line]

    This is a snip from the current article.

    Open Carry: A Good Idea?
    Mark Walters
    I have a question for all of you: Do those of you who live in "open carry" (OC) states actually carry openly from time to time? Obviously the very title of this publication lends itself to our carrying concealed weapons but many of us do live in states where some form of OC is considered legal. I have to admit, it is an idea that I have been flirting with lately. . . . keep reading



    [line]


    Pic removed since it provided a link to a pay membership site.

    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Agent19 wrote:
    When people are scared at the sight of a gun, that impression stays with them, and then damage has been done to the reputation of all gun owners.
    :shock:Oh my god. I can't beleive that she actually wrote that. Hey Agent19, thanks for posting that. It's incredible how even fellow gun owners, especially those who carry regularly for SD will talk about grabbing their kids and heading for the door when a fellow gun owner walks in doing nothing wrong.
    President/ Founding Member
    Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League
    www.laopencarry.org

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    I have a question for all of you: Do those of you who live in "open carry" (OC) states actually carry openly from time to time? Obviously the very title of this publication lends itself to our carrying concealed weapons but many of us do live in states where some form of OC is considered legal. I have to admit, it is an idea that I have been flirting with lately. . . . keep reading


    Absolutely, I open carry. I carried openly when it was a right to do so without a permit, even though I had one and still have one. I disagreed that a permit was needed to open carry.

    I also do not react the way you do when I see an exposed firearm. If the person is wearing a gun, in a holster, attached to themselves, I don't hear alarm bells. If a person walks in with a gun in an outstretched hand, waving it around, then the bells go off, just as they would if someone suddenly (with nothing going on) pulled a gun from concealment and threatened others with it.

    I'm shocked that you would call the police if you saw someone carrying openly. Isn't open carry legal in your state? How would you feel if someone happened to glimse your gun while concealed and called the police? I know of a gun store owner who was carrying a 1911, with rubber grips, under a untucked shirt. He got on a marta bus and after awhile the bus stopped and officers got on, guns drawned, screaming: "Who has the gun?" He put his hand on his gun and looked around for the bad guy to discover that it was him. His shirt had caught on the rubber grips and someone saw the gun and called the police.

    What if he was carrying openly, sitting there minding his business reading a magazine? Or if he was carrying on a friendly conversation with someone? I doubt the police would be called.

    I have NEVER had the police called on me and I've been carrying openly since 1995 and concealed before that. I've had store security check on me twice and a few of the public say: "I hope you are a good guy." But all that stopped when I began wearing a black belt, black holster and a black gun that is more inline with what the public perceives as "okay" since local law enforcement wears something similiar. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to impersonate an officer, but I would rather blend in and be perceived as a good guy. When someone asks me if I'm LE, I tell them no and educate them on gun rights in my state. Or sometimes I will just pull out my PI badge and skip the lecture, depending on the situation and the fear shown.

    I wish that you would support ALL carry rights, not just the one you prefer, but I respect and appreciate your opinion and thoughts.

    open4years

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    yale wrote:
    Maria Heil wrote:
    When people are scared at the sight of a gun, that impression stays with them, and then damage has been done to the reputation of all gun owners.
    Hey Agent19, thanks for posting that.
    When I read that article yrs ago I thought about dropping my subscription but did not because of all the othergood/positive info from the magazine

    The current article is positivenot dribble based on irrational fears.
    My kids got a kick seeing themselves in a magazine.

    Our own JPierce took the pic of me and my family at the VCDL picnic

    So much for the Internet being anonymous, which I never was.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    open4years wrote:
    Your comments.

    open4years
    :?Who are you addressing??

    I didn't write either article.
    Maria's articleis garbage imho.
    Mark's article is not, again imho.
    Are you able to read Marks article in full?
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Agent19 wrote:
    open4years wrote:
    Your comments.

    open4years
    :?Who are you addressing??

    I didn't write either article.
    Maria's articleis garbage imho.
    Mark's article is not, again imho.
    Are you able to read Marks article in full?
    My apologies Agent19, I thought you posted those comments. Now I see that you were posting an article. It got my blood boiling! Blame it on my being a newbie here or being an idiot. Sorry

    open4years

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    We are ok.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I'm rather surprised USCCA published a pro-OC article. They are VERY MUCH a CC-only organization.

    In fact, Tim Schmidt (founder) published an e-article this week about a "wardrobe malfunction" which exposed his firearm, and how to avoid such. Unfortunately, I deleted the e-mail, and I can't find it on his site.

    Not knocking USCCA so much; they seem to be good at what they do, but I find many of the assumptions they make in articles or other published pieces to be simply irrelevant in light of OC.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Tess wrote:
    In fact, Tim Schmidt (founder) published an e-article this week about a "wardrobe malfunction" which exposed his firearm, and how to avoid such. Unfortunately, I deleted the e-mail, and I can't find it on his site.


    Some people just don't get it.

    Tim, do you read your own magazine.

    I won't renew my subscriptionif this type of stuff continues, I let all the others lapse because of similar nonsense.





    [line]
    Here is Tim's e-article


    October 15th, 2008

    Good afternoon, Marco!

    You're never going to believe what happened to me yesterday. Hopefully you'll read this and can take something away from my mistake!

    It all started early that morning while I was deciding what T-Shirt to wear for the day. I settled on just a plain white T-shirt (you know, the kind you get in packs of five from the store).

    Now I usually don't wear these plain T-shirts because of how short they are. See, I carry in the "appendix position" on my belt (just to the right of my belt buckle) and if my shirt is too short, I run the risk of exposing the handle of my pistol...

    But- I figured I'd just be in my office all day anyway, so what could it hurt? Besides, I had woken up kind of late, and I was in a hurry to get out of the house.

    Well, after I just couldn't concentrate in my office, I decided to pack my laptop up and go to a wireless-internet cafe to work for a few hours.

    When I arrived, I ordered a 16oz coffee and found a table against the wall towards the rear of the shop. While I was sitting down, I brushed this poster/banner they had hanging on the wall, and knocked one side of it off the thumb tack that it was being held up by.

    Without even thinking, I reached way up above my head with both hands, and hung it back up. As soon as I started bringing my arms back down, I felt my shirt bunching up, and I realized what had just happened.

    I quickly turned to face the wall while reaching down to fix my shirt. I glanced down, and sure enough, the handle of my handgun was completely exposed.

    After I fixed is (while acting as normal as possible) I looked around, and miraculously nobody had seen.

    This story could have ended a LOT worse than it did. It just goes to show you that you can NEVER let your guard down!

    Tim Schmidt
    USCCA - Founder


    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Isn't that a big deal in some states like TX. My understanding is that in TX, printing or accidental exposure of your sidearm can get you cited. I think FL has similar laws or at least interpretations. One of my friends who lives there said a few years ago that printing or accidental exposure was a big deal with LEO but isn't so much anymore. Now whether that is a legal matter or his interpretation I didn't pursue.

    I guess my question is, being that I do not know where Tim Schmidt lives, couldn't it be that where he is that this is a big honking deal and could get him in big trouble whereas in other places with little to no restriction on OC nobody would care?
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    I guess my question is, being that I do not know where Tim Schmidt lives, couldn't it be that where he is that this is a big honking deal and could get him in big trouble whereas in other places with little to no restriction on OC nobody would care?
    Jackson, WI. I believe.
    That may be the case but this isa national magazine.
    There are more states that allow OC than don't.:?
    This e-article came out after the OCT. issue that supports OC.

    http://www.opencarry.org/opencarry.html



    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    I am a member of USCCA and have bben ever sense they started up. Yes i read tim's artical and if you read there forum you find other stories there to. I can relate to it as i have had a malfunction too. I was on my motorcycle when it happened to me. I carry everwhere i go. BUT if we could here i would OPC all the time. We have guy's who work in a gun store who open carry ever place they go and no swat team's no one FREAK'S out. I agree if they guy is waving it around or acting stupid then call the cops. I the guy is buying a pop and a burger then so what.

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