Handling gun in and out of car

imported post

Nope, it's addressing the most often "complaint" about Glocks that Bear brought up that they don't have a safety... which they do. In fact, they have three. One external and two internal. The only way to disengage the trigger safety is to put your finger properly on the trigger and pull... therefore, if you follow the 4 rules, there should never be an issue.

imported post

Richard6218 wrote:

just_a_car wrote:

For further support of Glock, I dare you to put any other pistol against it in a test like this, especially a 1911: Glock 21 Torture Test - Theprepared.com

As to the safety issue: #1 I have tried to move the trigger (with it unloaded and cleared) as hard as I can without touching the trigger safety and that thing won't budge. #2 How can you have it be unsafe if you're following the 4 rules?

Edit To Add: Here's my account of my G27 with pictures: http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/glock/36716-new-addition-my-collection.html

Click to expand...

Interesting --- I saw the Torture Test online just a few days ago. That's awesome. As to the Four Laws, I hope you're not addressing this to me. These are akin to the Marine Corps Eleven General Orders. Burned into memory for life.

Click to expand...

Just ask the guy's family,who died due to his Glock going off from sliding it inside his waist band, how they feel about Glock and it's lack of safeties.

imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Yep, a lot people thought that socialism and communism were a good idea too, but were they? Glocks have not one safety, even the US Military turned them down. Just because cop shops bought a ton or them, in 9mm no less don't make it the right was to go.Are you aware that the 9mm Luger predates the 45ACP and why the US Military opted for the 45ACP? Of course that was back when the idea was to kill the enemy instead of playing politics.

Click to expand...

Actually Glocks have 3 safeties. I think what Bear is alluding to is the lack of an trigger locking or disabling manual safety. True, Glocks don't have those, just like revolvers don't and many other semi-autos don't.

Neat thing though is if you follow the basic rules of gun safety, it isn't an issue. Now if you like to do stupid sh!t like hang your gun from the hook in a restroom stall or mexican carry, Glock probably isn't the right choice (I would argue if you wish to do such things NO gun would be the right choice...).

As to 9mm vs. .45 issue, I am pretty sure 9mm has sent many more to the grave than .45acp. Current technology has produced some very capable SD ammo. The hole in the argument of .45 over 9mm "because that's what the military use to use" is that military is restricted to ball ammo and cannot use hollow points. If I was restricted to ball ammo I would carry the absolute biggest caliber I could. With quality HP ammo it isn't an issue and as long as you put the shots in the correct place, 9mm will do the trick.

If the 21 is too much weight and you want to stick with .45, try the Glock 30 (10+1) or Glock 36 (6+1). Both are about same physical size as the G19/23, but a little thicker (except the G36).

If you really want to go light weight, but are concerned about power, there are always the .357 snubbies, my M&P340 comes in at under 16 ounces fully loaded. Of course, it is a revolver and doesn't have any safety...

imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Just ask the guy's family,who died due to his Glock going off from sliding it inside his waist band, how they feel about Glock and it's lack of safeties.

Click to expand...

I am pretty sure it went off from something getting stuffed in the trigger guard and having pressure applied, like most guns would. Of course maybe he should have used a holster...

Do you blame the car for the crash when the driver steers it into a tree?

imported post

911Boss wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Just ask the guy's family,who died due to his Glock going off from sliding it inside his waist band, how they feel about Glock and it's lack of safeties.

Click to expand...

I am pretty sure it went off from something getting stuffed in the trigger guard and having pressure applied, like most guns would. Of course maybe he should have used a holster...

Do you blame the car for the crash when the driver steers it into a tree?

Click to expand...

Ahh, make excuse if you wish but it couldn't have happened with a 1911 withit's safeties. Again Glocks have no positive safeties and old Gaston is a frickin' salesman first and foremost. Your analogy isn't even close but, ifthe steering wheel hastwo turns before the wheels turn, then I blame the car designer and anyone that would drive such a vehicle.

imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Ahh, make excuse if you wish but it couldn't have happened with a 1911 withit's safeties. Again Glocks have no positive safeties and old Gaston is a frickin' salesman first and foremost. Your analogy isn't even close but, ifthe steering wheel hastwo turns before the wheels turn, then I blame the car designer and anyone that would drive such a vehicle.

Click to expand...

The ones who blame the gun for going off when they violate the rules of gun safety are the ones making excuses.

It certainly could happen with a 1911. If someone is stupid enough to stuff a pistol in their pants without a holster, or not realize they are stuffing something in the trigger guard, they are stupid enough to not engage a manual safety on a gun that has one. The safety that isn't used is no better than not having a safety. That is especially true for the number ONE safety on any gun, your BRAIN.


It would be interesting to see how many ND's there would be if 1911's were carried in the same numbers as Glocks are. I would be willing to bet that proportionally, Glocks have no more ND's than 1911's.

imported post

911Boss wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Ahh, make excuse if you wish but it couldn't have happened with a 1911 withit's safeties. Again Glocks have no positive safeties and old Gaston is a frickin' salesman first and foremost. Your analogy isn't even close but, ifthe steering wheel hastwo turns before the wheels turn, then I blame the car designer and anyone that would drive such a vehicle.

Click to expand...

The ones who blame the gun for going off when they violate the rules of gun safety are the ones making excuses.

It certainly could happen with a 1911. If someone is stupid enough to stuff a pistol in their pants without a holster, or not realize they are stuffing something in the trigger guard, they are stupid enough to not engage a manual safety on a gun that has one.


It would be interesting to see how many ND's there would be if 1911's were carried in the same numbers as Glocks are. I would be willing to bet that proportionally, Glocks have no more ND's than 1911's.

Click to expand...

You have decide that you are the protector of this forum, from me. But you are now doing exactly what you claim I do. Thisnot only makes you ten times worse than I could ever be but makes you a completehypocrite to boot. I would feel sorry for you except you are below contempt. I even quit responding on the other thread to make you and your other fanatics happy and you continue the rant. You even think making a poll against me makes you important. I truly don't care what you do, but if you keep on you will be the band one and I won't have to do a thing about it either.

imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote

You have decide that you are the protector of this forum, from me. But you are now doing exactly what you claim I do. Thisnot only makes you ten times worse than I could ever be but makes you a completehypocrite to boot. I would feel sorry for you except you are below contempt. I even quit responding on the other thread to make you and your other fanatics happy and you continue the rant. You even think making a poll against me makes you important. I truly don't care what you do, but if you keep on you will be the band one and I won't have to do a thing about it either.

Click to expand...

What does this even have to do with the posts regarding Glocks and 1911s? Are you trying to change the subject?

As I VERY CLEARLY STATED, yes I decided to post about you as you post about others. We are not "exactly" the same. You attack and insult people for no reason other than disagreeing with them or they disagreeing with you. My attack posts are only to you and only in response to one of your posts of such fashion. Nothing hypocritical about that at all. I've admitted my behavior is bad, will you do the same?

You quit responding on the other thread because you had your ass handed to you yet again. You've realized that unlike so many others, I won't be shouted down.

This will end one of two ways, you learn some manners, or one/both of us get b-a-n-n-e-d ("Band" is a group of people playing musical instruments...). Since your bullsh!t has been allowed to collect for over 2000 posts, I am not terribly concerned about being banned.

imported post

You could have 6 safeties and it won't prevent ND. I was walking along the other day when some soldier fired off an ND into a clearing barrel with his M9 just about dusk. The Beretta has a manual safety.

Saw the flash and heard the shot and dropped to the ground (nearly broke my laptop I was carrying at the time) because this was not an area where one should expect gunfire. Scared the scheisse out of me momentarily.

Nothing will prevent an ND if you are careless. If you are careful, have deeply engrained the 4 rules in your brain and reflexes, then lack of a manual external safety is not a problem. If you get complacent, then the chances of an ND go way up no matter what technical control there is. For what it's worth, I really think the US military's insistence on clearing one's weapon every time you go through an ECP is bad policy. (Dozens of times a day for some).

Most security contractors and LEO types here carry Glocks. Does that make them better, or right in all circumstances? No. There's too much personal preference involved to say what is better.

imported post

thebastidge wrote:

Most security contractors and LEO types here carry Glocks. Does that make them better, or right in all circumstances? No. There's too much personal preference involved to say what is better.

Click to expand...

No, it makes them socialists and communists, according to Mr. Bear.

imported post

MetalChris wrote:

thebastidge wrote:

Most security contractors and LEO types here carry Glocks. Does that make them better, or right in all circumstances? No. There's too much personal preference involved to say what is better.

Click to expand...

No, it makes them socialists and communists, according to Mr. Bear.

Click to expand...

Metalhead, You are an ass. I never said that at all, jerk wad. Talk about taking a leap. The copsbought the Glocksbecause they were cheap and you can be sure that was the only consideration.

imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote:

MetalChris wrote:

No, it makes them socialists and communists, according to Mr. Bear.

Click to expand...

Metalhead, You are an ass. I never said that at all, jerk wad. Talk about taking a leap. The copsbought the Glocksbecause they were cheap and you can be sure that was the only consideration.

Click to expand...

As much as I hate to come to bear's defense, it is true, he didn't say they were socialists and communists, he only likened the idea of buying a Glock to the ideas of socialism and communism, the inference being that it is a bad idea.

I am sure everyone will agree that socialism and communism are bad, most will also likely agree that despotism and dictatorships are even worse. Of course, those both seem to be more in keeping with bears ideals and manner of behavior.

As far as why so many police departments choose Glock, it isn't just about price. While price is one factor (we are talking about spending your tax dollars after all), I don't know of any police department that would buy a gun without a testing process and it having a proven ability to perform. Bear just likes to over-simplify things because he is so simple himself.

I would love to see someone put a 1911 through half the stuff folks have put Glocks through on torture tests. I doubt any would be able to survive. Sure they are good guns, good caliber, and can be accurate as all hell, but they just flat out are not as reliable and durable as a Glock. When you consider that Glocks can take such abuse, go bang everytime and do it for half the price of the cheapest 1911's, no wonder the 1911 fans are jealous and talk them down.

Hell, bear himself has stated that "The more you criticize me the more credence you give me. If I and what I say didn't really matter, then you would just ignore it. Since you can't, then what I am saying must, by extension have major meaning." So by the all knowing bears own words, Glocks just must be the shizzle since he can't stop harping about how bad he thinks they are...

imported post

Richard6218 wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Richard6218 wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Richard6218 wrote:

Would maybe a .357 be a good compromise? Problem with that is, all the .357's I know of are revolvers, and I'd be looking for a semi.

Click to expand...

If you are looking for an auto, there is always the 40 S&W or the 357 Gapcartridges to get up into the 357 power range. I had a 1911 in 400 Corbon once, but was not impressed with the smaller weight bullets.

Click to expand...

Now you're saying exactly what just_a_car said: he thought the Glock 27 in .40 would be good. I'll be looking into that.

Click to expand...

Actually no, I don't like Glocks for a number of reasons and would never recommend on to anyone. Now a 1911, yes everytime over a Glock.

Click to expand...

Well,this whole discussion has been about myGlock, and except when it was new I have never had a problem with it. And it seems a lot of people don't agree with you. Whatare a couple of your main objections to them?

Click to expand...

Let's get this back on topic. I don't want to get mixed up in you guys' pissing contest, but I'm still working on my original subject, which is to find a lightweight auto in a good caliber bigger than 9mm. I just looked at the HK USP Compact that comes in either 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP. IT DOES have an external safety, weighs 1.53 lbs = 24.5 ozs EMPTY and is 5" tall, which would fit my hand as well as my Glock 21C. Something this small would conceal nicely, too. Downside: HK's are expensive as hell. Question: would it be worth it?

imported post

Richard6218 wrote

Let's get this back on topic. I don't want to get mixed up in you guys' pissing contest, but I'm still working on my original subject, which is to find a lightweight auto in a good caliber bigger than 9mm. I just looked at the HK USP Compact that comes in either 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP. IT DOES have an external safety, weighs 1.53 lbs = 24.5 ozs EMPTY and is 5" tall, which would fit my hand as well as my Glock 21C. Something this small would conceal nicely, too. Downside: HK's are expensive as hell. Question: would it be worth it?

Click to expand...

If you like Glocks, I'd stick with them. I don't think you get much for the extra money with HK.

As I suggested, if you want to stay with the .45, look at the Glock 30 and 36. Both weigh less than the HK. The 30 is 24 oz unloaded and 34 oz loaded while the 36 is 20.1 oz unloaded and 27 oz loaded. That compares with 19.75 oz unloaded/27 oz loaded for the G27 in .40. and 26 oz/38 oz for the G21

If weight is the issue and not size, I stick with something bigger than the 27 just for comfort sake of shooting it.

imported post

There are some ergonomic issues with the USPs that don't fit me well. There are good weapons though and if they fit you ergonomically not a bad choice in any way for an SD sidearm IMO.

My non-9mm carry is an XD45 compact service (4" barrel). I like the versatility of having a short mag (10+1 rd) and a full size mag (13+1 rd) of .45. Unlike say the Glock 30, I can actually get all my fingers onto the grip of the XD short mag (barely), and the full size mag is quite comfortable for shooting.

The XDs have been through a torture test similar to the infamous Glock test:
http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php

I don't care for several things about Glocks ergonomically and I like the additional passive safeties on the XD.

XD45 compact service fully loaded w/230 gr: short mag (11rds) ~36-37 oz, full size mag (14 rds) ~39oz

Just throwing it out there. I haven't read the entire thread because of the OT stuff so I'm just responding to Richard's last post so this may have been covered.

imported post

Thanx to both of you, 911 and deep- for the stats. For me, as I described, the issue is weight, and I need to accomplish a significant drop from the 38 ozs of my G21 loaded. The HK model and also the G30 and G27 seem to be about as light as can be found without sacrificing stopping power. It looks like a 4-5 oz decrease can be had with these models. I need to think on this for a while and try to shoot some of the prospects. Trouble is, there isn't an indoor range with rentals anywhere near where I live. Maybe I'll take a whole day and go down to Bellevue to the range where I used to go --- can't remember the name now but they have lots of rentals and a good indoor range.

imported post

It's Wade's... Prices are a bit steep, but they do have a lot of rentals.

imported post

I don't want to get mixed up in you guys' pissing contest

Click to expand...

It's not strictly their pissing contest. Bear is a mean old goat who has a record of randomly attacking many people on this forum, including me, whom he attacked unprovoked when I was a fresh new member (hell, I'm still new here). When Bear stops pissing on everyone, we'll stop pissing back. The solution to the garbage littering this forum is entirely up to Bear, the man who starts it damn near every time.

Glocks: I don't like them. I've never fired one, but I handled a few at a gun store and they seemed like cheap pieces of sh!t to me. Just my opinion. They almost turned me off on poly guns altogether. Then I found Springfield Armory... I love my XD9, and will certainly buy more of their weapons (XD40 or 45 next).

imported post

tricityguy wrote:

I don't want to get mixed up in you guys' pissing contest

Click to expand...

It's not strictly their pissing contest. Bear is a mean old goat who has a record of randomly attacking many people on this forum, including me, whom he attacked unprovoked when I was a fresh new member (hell, I'm still new here). When Bear stops pissing on everyone, we'll stop pissing back. The solution to the garbage littering this forum is entirely up to Bear, the man who starts it damn near every time.

Glocks: I don't like them. I've never fired one, but I handled a few at a gun store and they seemed like cheap pieces of sh!t to me. Just my opinion. They almost turned me off on poly guns altogether. Then I found Springfield Armory... I love my XD9, and will certainly buy more of their weapons (XD40 or 45 next).

Click to expand...

Look! tricityguy and I disagree on Glocks, yet he didn't call me any names or question my intelligence. Another interesting point, he LIKES XD's. Me? I don't like XD's. I had one for a while and just didn't like it plain and simple. It worked ok, shot where you pointed it and all, but it just wasn't comfortable to me. Bit my hand and just felt odd.

He didn't say Glocks were pieces of sh!t (stated as fact), he said they felt like one to him, and even noted it was his opinion.

Now did I sling insults at either XD's, the man who deisgned them, the people who buy them, or tricityguy for his preference? No, no I didn't. Bear take note, that is mature, adult discourse.

imported post

911Boss wrote:

tricityguy wrote:

I don't want to get mixed up in you guys' pissing contest

Click to expand...

It's not strictly their pissing contest. Bear is a mean old goat who has a record of randomly attacking many people on this forum, including me, whom he attacked unprovoked when I was a fresh new member (hell, I'm still new here). When Bear stops pissing on everyone, we'll stop pissing back. The solution to the garbage littering this forum is entirely up to Bear, the man who starts it damn near every time.

Glocks: I don't like them. I've never fired one, but I handled a few at a gun store and they seemed like cheap pieces of sh!t to me. Just my opinion. They almost turned me off on poly guns altogether. Then I found Springfield Armory... I love my XD9, and will certainly buy more of their weapons (XD40 or 45 next).

Click to expand...

Look! tricityguy and I disagree on Glocks, yet he didn't call me any names or question my intelligence. Another interesting point, he LIKES XD's. Me? I don't like XD's. I had one for a while and just didn't like it plain and simple. It worked ok, shot where you pointed it and all, but it just wasn't comfortable to me. Bit my hand and just felt odd.

He didn't say Glocks were pieces of sh!t (stated as fact), he said they felt like one to him, and even noted it was his opinion.

Now did I sling insults at either XD's, the man who deisgned them, the people who buy them, or tricityguy for his preference? No, no I didn't. Bear take note, that is mature, adult discourse.

Click to expand...

I've done some pretty good shooting with my G21. Only thing I'm looking for now is to reduce the weight on my hip when I'm carrying, otherwise I'd be pretty pleased with what I have. HOWEVER, just before this back pain thing came up I was looking at the Springfield XD(M) 9mm with a 19+1 mag. It isn't even available yet, but I was drooling over it. But it's a full size service piece and wouldn't help the problem with the weight. Now the picture has changed, and that's why I'm looking for something in a compact.

As to the little war going on, you may not have seen the battle I had with Bear a month or so ago. I was so fed up I quit even reading this board. I know what you mean about how he attacks people, but that's how he is. The key is not to counterattack because that only makes it worse.