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Unregistered Gun Confiscated

kparker

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ATCSDav's story reminds me of what happened to an acquaintance of mine.

Scene 1: Some years ago he lived in the greater Portland area. His house was broken into and a bunch of his rifles stolen. IIRC, not much else was taken, so somehow somebody knew about his gunsafe and targeted it.

Scene 2: He files a report on the breakin.

Scene 3: He sells his house, moves to the Puget Sound area, and spends 5 or 6 years here.

Scene 4: He moves back to the Portland area, renting at first.

Scene 5: Having decided the move back is going to be a long-term thing, he buys a house.

Scene 6: Portland PD calls or mails him (I forget which) saying he needs to come pick up his rifle as it's been in their property room forever and they're just about to get rid of it.

Turns out that, sometime after Scene 3 (the move to WA) one of the stolen rifles is recovered from a pawnshop. But for some reason (and this makes sense to neither him or me) they can't seem to follow up the now-dead Portland address and find him in his new location. Maybe they just didn't try that hard. So the rifle just sits in their property room. Finally, after he once again becomes a local property owner, Portland PD is doing some kind of annual or final about-to-go-off-to-auction check, and this time his name turns up.



Morris, dude: surely you're on the same side as the rest of us! :)
 

Morris

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I support your right. I've even defended it.

But as I have pointed out before, handguns purchased from dealers are registered in the state. I can run your name and find out whatHANDGUNS you have purchased from FFLs in this state or registered private party sales. I can run a trace on a handgun and find out the most recent listed owner. The blue form you filled out goes to the state.

This is handguns only, nothing on long guns . . . . yet.
 

TechnoWeenie

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Morris wrote:
I support your right.  I've even defended it.

But as I have pointed out before, handguns purchased from dealers are registered in the state.  I can run your name and find out what HANDGUNS you have purchased from FFLs in this state or registered private party sales.  I can run a trace on a handgun and find out the most recent listed owner.  The blue form you filled out goes to the state.

This is handguns only, nothing on long guns  . . . . yet.

I've owned my glock for a few months, purchased at Cabela's, when I was detained unlawfully by PCSO I was 'grilled' for not registering it, and wanting to know 'why it came back to XYZ'.... Then berated/belittled/'educated' on how to be a responsible gun owner... I was told in no uncertain terms that if I didn't register it, he would confiscate it until I could prove ownership. He didn't care that registration is optional. He tried to pull the 'what if it gets stolen' card, apparently my answer of 'I have all the documentation of the sale at my house, I can find the serial number very easily' wasn't good enough for him..


Speaking of which, Morris, I need your opinion on something, IIRC, you're an officer... Anyway you can PM me your cell # or I can PM you mine?
 

LongRider

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Morris wrote:
I support your right. I've even defended it.
I am assuming you mean our right as we are all citizens

Morris wrote:
I can run a trace on a handgun and find out the most recent listed owner. The blue form you filled out goes to the state.
I know folks who only buy FTF for this reason. In case agun grab ever happens that is not the case here. It was bought at a brick and mortar gunshop, so shouldn't her gun have come up as registered
 

Morris

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Speaking of which, Morris, I need your opinion on something, IIRC, you're an officer... Anyway you can PM me your cell # or I can PM you mine?

-----------------------

Yeah, PM me as I am having issues with the board right now in getting PMs to you. Guessing some sort of glitch on my end.
 

tricityguy

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OK, here's a question: What are the laws regarding the police disarming you during a routine traffic stop? If I'm pulled over for something, and I show my ID and CPL, do they have the right to take my gun away from me while I'm detained? I'm curious what the legal repercussions would be if one refused to hand it over. My concern is once they have it, they can just decide they're going to keep it and I'm screwed.

edit: Of course if I don't give it up I could be shot and then I'm definitely screwed, but what do the laws say? Reason I ask is, besides this thread, I've read others where the police take guns "as a safety precaution", run the numbers, etc, when the person either hasn't done anything wrong (MWAG call) or is merely getting a speeding ticket which should have nothing to do with the gun.
 

joeroket

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tricityguy wrote:
OK, here's a question: What are the laws regarding the police disarming you during a routine traffic stop? If I'm pulled over for something, and I show my ID and CPL, do they have the right to take my gun away from me while I'm detained? I'm curious what the legal repercussions would be if one refused to hand it over. My concern is once they have it, they can just decide they're going to keep it and I'm screwed.

edit: Of course if I don't give it up I could be shot and then I'm definitely screwed, but what do the laws say? Reason I ask is, besides this thread, I've read others where the police take guns "as a safety precaution", run the numbers, etc, when the person either hasn't done anything wrong (MWAG call) or is merely getting a speeding ticket which should have nothing to do with the gun.
True the speeding ticket has nothing to do with the gun but the arrest does. Courts have ruled that being issued a citation for speeding does constitute an arrest so I would imagine in the scenario you describe it would be lawful to seize the firearm during the duration of the stop only but for no longer than that.

Seizing a weapon because of a MWAG call, I think, is a no no because there is no RAS for the stop therefore no justification for the detainment.
 

XD45PlusP

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joeroket wrote:
tricityguy wrote:
OK, here's a question: What are the laws regarding the police disarming you during a routine traffic stop? If I'm pulled over for something, and I show my ID and CPL, do they have the right to take my gun away from me while I'm detained? I'm curious what the legal repercussions would be if one refused to hand it over. My concern is once they have it, they can just decide they're going to keep it and I'm screwed.

edit: Of course if I don't give it up I could be shot and then I'm definitely screwed, but what do the laws say? Reason I ask is, besides this thread, I've read others where the police take guns "as a safety precaution", run the numbers, etc, when the person either hasn't done anything wrong (MWAG call) or is merely getting a speeding ticket which should have nothing to do with the gun.
Courts have ruled that being issued a citation for speeding does constitute an arrest so I would imagine in the scenario you describe it would be lawful to seize the firearm during the duration of the stop only but for no longer than that.

Seizing a weapon because of a MWAG call, I think, is a no no because there is no RAS for the stop therefore no justification for the detainment.

Not in Wa State....

"Although the police officers may have had sufficient cause to make an
investigatory stop, these circumstances did not cumulatively rise to the level of
probable cause required to effectuate a fullcustodial arrest.Here,Officers
Robinson and Scott arrested Jones for failure to obey, a misdemeanor traffic
violation. Failure to obey alone is not an offense for which a vehicle's driver
may be lawfully taken into full custodial arrest. Further, therecord does not
present any additional factors or circumstances justifying a custodial arrest.The
officers were only authorized to make an arrest (investigatory stop) that was
limited in scope and duration to that reasonably necessary to issue and serve
Jones with a citation and notice to appear. "

http://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/index.cfm?fa=opinions.showOpinion&filename=601725MAJ

Also, please look at State v Ladson. A very important case here in this state.

In State v. Ladson, 138 Wn.2d 343 (1999), police officers on a proactive gang patrol selectively used traffic infractions to initiate contact for intelligence gathering. While suspecting the driver was involved in drugs, the police stopped a vehicle for expired tabs and searched passenger Thomas Ladson’s jacket, finding a firearm. Ladson was arrested and searched which resulted in the discovery of cash and marijuana. The Court rejected the rational from Whren, found a pretextual traffic stop and suppressed evidence obtained subsequent to the stop.


http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/supreme/138wn2d/138wn2d0343.htm

Based upon Article I Section 7 Of The WA ST Constitution,

and RCW 46.64.015 and RCW 10.31.100

Please see:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.64.015

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=10.31.100

It can be confusing,

Is it a "Seizure" or "Detention" or "Arrest" or "Full Custodial Arrest" or "Investigatory Stop" etc.....

We all know the police can, and will do whatever they want, but when it gets to court, or the prosecutor, things change quite fast.

XD
 

tricityguy

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because there is no RAS for the stop
True, but while there may be RAS for a speeding ticket stop, there is still no RAS for seizing legally owned items from my vehicle, even if such seizure is only temporary. Nobody would accept a cop taking your wallet, jacket, or other object from you other than your license & registration, so why should we accept it when they take our firearms?

I'm of the opinion that, without a warrant to search the vehicle, they're not going to take a damn thing out of it except for the essential documentation I'm required to give them (license, registration, proof of insurance and CPL). Of course, if they elect to do it anyway, there's clearly little I can do to stop them other than file a complaint or lawsuit, but I will most certainly protest what I believe would be an illegal search & seizure of my property.

This is all very acedemic in nature at this point; I haven't been pulled over in years and would be on my best behavior if I were, yes sir, no sir, etc. Still, I like to be prepared with what my response ought to be in any given situation.
 

joeroket

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I will have to research more case law on my own. I have seen case law that is of an opposite opinion as you are quoting. As far as State vs Ladsen goes it is not even applicable to what was asked. That case found that the stop was a pretext stop and not just a random traffic stop.
 
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