going on base

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In the spring of 2003 just before the currently Iraq war broke out, I entered the Quantico, Virginia Marine base with an Armalite M15A2 Carbine and a Kahr PM9 in my trunk.. both unloaded and in cases but not locked up. In addition, I had a Spyderco clip knife (small one) clipped to my right pocket and a baby Ka Bar knife in my passenger side map pocket (forgot about this one).

Since my car did not have a DoD sticker, I was moved to a side area and asked to step out of the car. A marine asked me if I had any other weapons in my car beside the knife he saw clipped to my pocket. I told him that there was a rifle and a handgun in my trunk. They asked me to open the trunk and they inspected my firearms. When they finished, they asked me if I was going to Quantico Arms in 'Q' town to which I replied in the affirmative. The closed my trunk wished me a good day. I asked if I still had my weapons and they said yes.

That was it. No hassle.. just a mild inspection. I can only imagine what the other cars waiting behind me must have thought when a marine pulled my AR-15 out of my trunk.

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"An unregistered firearm"- shades of DC and NYC's Bloomturd:uhoh:

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I didn't know this until a couple of years ago, but an installation commander can regulate the carry of firearms on his installation, from "No. Nothing except cased to/from the armory" to whatever's legal. Given federal regulations, I can't imagine one permitting regular carry, though. He'd have to have his entire base legal staff working on the ramifications.

In 30 years of association in various forms with military installations, I can say Ft Belvoir, strict as it may seem to some in Virginia, is among the more open.

In addition to FB Regulation 190-2, already quoted, there is

FB Regulation 210-28
5-30. Firearms Control
Personally owned firearms and weapons stored in family housing must be registered with the Provost Marshal’s Office. Occupants will comply with Fort Belvoir Regulation 190-2, Motor Vehicle and Firearms Control, 23 Oct 98.

That's where the "registration" comes from.


Edited to fix missing phrase.

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It's true that every installation commander sets his own policy for firearms. The Air Force tends to be the most restrictive. Many Army installations allow hunting, so they obviously allow firearms.

When my oldest was going through Basic and AIT at Fort Knox, and we planned to attend his family day and graduation, I checked with the Law Enforcement Center (the LEC is the new term for the Provost Marshal's Office), and confirmed their policy that I had found online: licensed concealed carry was permitted on post, but not in any buildings. Just secure it in the trunk before going inside.

That was 2005, so don't rely on it if you're visiting Knox in 2008.

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To be honest, I have seen nothing that prohibits civilians from lawfully carrying on a military installation.

Base Commanders can impact the actions of military members on base - that is clear. Regarding civilians employed as federal employees...hmmm. Civilians hired as contractors....another hmmm.

But civilians just visiting - I can't see how they can be punished by something they are not a part of in any way. If they were stopped by the military and then turned over to local civilian police...what would they be charged with? If they were charged with something by the military and went in front of a Federal Magistrate...what would they be charged with?

There must exist something that applies to all federal military installations when it comes to lawful firearm carry on base.

Can anyone cite anything other than base specific info?

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Most likely, upon discovery that a civilian on a military installation possesses a firearm, the civilian will be told (and forced, if necessary) to leave the installation.

On the other hand, the law which may appear to prohibit the possession of firearms in a post office could conceivably be extended to apply to military installations, which are more clearly federal than post offices.

~ Boyd

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Prohibitions of Carrying Firearms or Weapons Open or Concealed onto Federal Installations

As with each citizen’s right to bear arms, there are limits when and where to bear arms. Extreme caution and prudent judgment must be used when deciding to carry a personal firearm or weapon so you must know the law. Virginia concealed carry permits DO NOT apply on MCBQ or any military installation. Before attempting to enter the military installation you must ensure you are in full compliance with the firearms transport rules.
The law involving carrying a firearm or weapon onto federal property is specific and clear. Possession of Firearms and Dangerous Weapons in federal facilities, buildings, or Installations is illegal and is in violation of Section 930, Title 18, United States Code. Law Enforcement personnel, when entering federal facilities, buildings and/or installations must identify themselves prior to entry if armed. Military reserve personnel whose civilian profession require the carrying of a weapon, openly or concealed, are not authorized to carry or bring their duty weapon on a federal installation, into a federal building, or facility. Full time civilian police officers performing drill, annual training, or while in support of an operation, may not bring their duty weapon, open or concealed, onto a federal installation, into a federal building, or facility. Unless the carrying of a concealed weapon is in support of a federal mission, or so directed, weapons will not be brought onto a federal installation, into a federal building or facility.
The following is a list of items that are listed as illegal and may not be carried onto a federal installation or into a federal facility or building.

• Firearms (of any type unless declared and cleared by the installation Provost Marshal)
• Explosive Weapons
• Machine Guns
• Short Barrelled Firearms
• Firearm Silencer
• Switchblade Knives
• Knuckles
• Armor Piercing Ammunition
• Chemical Dispensing Devices
• Zip Guns
• Clubs or Night Sticks
• Illegal Knives

Source: Defense Link - http://www.defenselink.mil/

Consent to Search (Typical example)
Commanders of military installations, aircraft, or vessels may authorizepersonnel to conduct searches of personsor property upon entry to or exit from the installation, aircraft, or vessel. The justification for the search is the need to make sure the security, military fitness, or good order and discipline of thecommand is maintained. Any person and their property entering is subject to search. [line]http://tinyurl.com/4hqls5

Yata hey

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To go along with what Grapeshot justed posted, if you are a civillian or a military dependant and the Military catches you with a unauthorized weapon and charge you with it you go to federal court over the issue, not state court. This is the same for any laws that are broken on a military base.

During the few times I lived on Military Housing at Camp Pendleton, it was no problem to have my guns on base as long as I registered them with PMO, if I lived in the barrocks I had to check them into the Armory.

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Renegade wrote:

To be honest, I have seen nothing that prohibits civilians from lawfully carrying on a military installation.

Base Commanders can impact the actions of military members on base - that is clear. Regarding civilians employed as federal employees...hmmm. Civilians hired as contractors....another hmmm.

But civilians just visiting - I can't see how they can be punished by something they are not a part of in any way. If they were stopped by the military and then turned over to local civilian police...what would they be charged with? If they were charged with something by the military and went in front of a Federal Magistrate...what would they be charged with?

There must exist something that applies to all federal military installations when it comes to lawful firearm carry on base.

Can anyone cite anything other than base specific info?

Click to expand...

In many jurisdictions, people committing a crime / breaking a law of any sort on base will be turned over to the local police department.

For example (unless it changed yet again), getting a ticket for speedingat NOB Norfolk is just like getting a speeding ticket out in town.

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... and here is where a test case for Title 18, 930 (d) (3) comes into play:

3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes

Click to expand...

Self Defense is a 'lawful purpose', is it not? SCOTUS says so.

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docwatson wrote:

snip.....
Self Defense is a 'lawful purpose', is it not? SCOTUS says so.

Click to expand...

And so it would be in a court room but you are in violation the instant you enter - actual self-defense is not viable issue at that point.

Yata hey

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Grapeshot wrote:

docwatson wrote:

snip.....
Self Defense is a 'lawful purpose', is it not? SCOTUS says so.

Click to expand...

And so it would be in a court room but you are in violation the instant you enter - actual self-defense is not viable issue at that point.

Yata hey

Click to expand...

So a security system is only providing security when someone is trying to break in?

That's like saying police are only law enforcement when they are actively enforcing laws.

Having a gun on your person *IS* self-defense. The very presence of it is self-defense. It automatically projects deterrence which is a known form of self-defense, one that is actively used by the US Military and US Government.


*edit for spelling*

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darthmord wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

docwatson wrote:

snip.....
Self Defense is a 'lawful purpose', is it not? SCOTUS says so.

Click to expand...

And so it would be in a court room but you are in violation the instant you enter - actual self-defense is not viable issue at that point.

Yata hey

Click to expand...

So a security system is only providing security when someone is trying to break in? The "security system" providing such is not the question. If there is no disallowed action, there is no penalty.

That's like saying police are only law enforcement when they are actively enforcing laws. No it's not.

Having a gun on your person *IS* self-defense. The very presence of it is self-defense. It automatically projects deterrence which is a known form of self-defense, one that is actively used by the US Military and US Government.
No it is not. It is carrying a tool (passive) that is available for self-defense (active). *Is* is an inactive verb (passive - intransitive) while *defend* is an active verb (transitive).

*edit for spelling*

Click to expand...

Bill Clinton would love that response.

Nevertheless that *is* the difference and I am done with this - carry on if you wish.

The point still remains relative to the OP that bringing a weapon onto a military installation is in most cases illegal and punishable.

Yata hey

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SouthernBoy wrote:

In the spring of 2003 just before the currently Iraq war broke out, I entered the Quantico, Virginia Marine base with an Armalite M15A2 Carbine and a Kahr PM9 in my trunk.. both unloaded and in cases but not locked up. In addition, I had a Spyderco clip knife (small one) clipped to my right pocket and a baby Ka Bar knife in my passenger side map pocket (forgot about this one).

Since my car did not have a DoD sticker, I was moved to a side area and asked to step out of the car. A marine asked me if I had any other weapons in my car beside the knife he saw clipped to my pocket. I told him that there was a rifle and a handgun in my trunk. They asked me to open the trunk and they inspected my firearms. When they finished, they asked me if I was going to Quantico Arms in 'Q' town to which I replied in the affirmative. The closed my trunk wished me a good day. I asked if I still had my weapons and they said yes.

That was it. No hassle.. just a mild inspection. I can only imagine what the other cars waiting behind me must have thought when a marine pulled my AR-15 out of my trunk.

Click to expand...

That was because the provost issued an order to the MP's to let civilians get to the civilian base surrounded by the base. You can get almost anything through the gate if you are going to Q-town. They can't deny you. You will get escorted though.

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Remember, that once you enter a military base, you become subject to search and seizure. That's what those big signs out front tell you when you pull up to the gate.

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.

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Anything they don't have in the UCMJ can be charged under article 134 - commonly referred to as the "catch all" article.

Article 134 encompasses offenses that are not specifically listed in the Manual for Courts-Martial, That is to say, "all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty,". Article 134 is often considered to be a "catch-all" for various offenses that aren't necessarily covered by the other articles in the UCMJ. Article 134 offenses include disloyal statements, abusing public animal, adultery, bigamy, bribery and graft, drinking liquor with prisoner, fleeing scene of accident, fraternization, gambling with subordinate, et al. It’s colloquially referred to as the “Write your own law” or “Don’t be stupid” article, and reflect acts that are not specifically listed, but nevertheless committed, by military personnel that negatively impact the service, unit, etc.

Click to expand...

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Code_of_Military_Justice

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Grapeshot wrote:

Prohibitions of Carrying Firearms or Weapons Open or Concealed onto Federal Installations

As with each citizen’s right to bear arms, there are limits when and where to bear arms. Extreme caution and prudent judgment must be used when deciding to carry a personal firearm or weapon so you must know the law. Virginia concealed carry permits DO NOT apply on MCBQ or any military installation. Before attempting to enter the military installation you must ensure you are in full compliance with the firearms transport rules.
The law involving carrying a firearm or weapon onto federal property is specific and clear. Possession of Firearms and Dangerous Weapons in federal facilities, buildings, or Installations is illegal and is in violation of Section 930, Title 18, United States Code. Law Enforcement personnel, when entering federal facilities, buildings and/or installations must identify themselves prior to entry if armed. Military reserve personnel whose civilian profession require the carrying of a weapon, openly or concealed, are not authorized to carry or bring their duty weapon on a federal installation, into a federal building, or facility. Full time civilian police officers performing drill, annual training, or while in support of an operation, may not bring their duty weapon, open or concealed, onto a federal installation, into a federal building, or facility. Unless the carrying of a concealed weapon is in support of a federal mission, or so directed, weapons will not be brought onto a federal installation, into a federal building or facility.
The following is a list of items that are listed as illegal and may not be carried onto a federal installation or into a federal facility or building.

• Firearms (of any type unless declared and cleared by the installation Provost Marshal)
• Explosive Weapons
• Machine Guns
• Short Barrelled Firearms
• Firearm Silencer
• Switchblade Knives
• Knuckles
• Armor Piercing Ammunition
• Chemical Dispensing Devices
• Zip Guns
• Clubs or Night Sticks
• Illegal Knives

Source: Defense Link - http://www.defenselink.mil/

Consent to Search (Typical example)
Commanders of military installations, aircraft, or vessels may authorizepersonnel to conduct searches of personsor property upon entry to or exit from the installation, aircraft, or vessel. The justification for the search is the need to make sure the security, military fitness, or good order and discipline of thecommand is maintained. Any person and their property entering is subject to search.
[line]
http://tinyurl.com/4hqls5

Yata hey

Click to expand...

Thanks grapeshot, though I couldn't get your tinyurl link to work or find the source text at defenselink.mil.

I believe the provided text is wrong. Section 930, Title 18, USC addresses Possession of Firearms and Dangerous Weapons in Federal Facilities, but says nothing about Federal Installations.

If there is some overarching document addressing Federal Installations, I'd like to see it, but I don't see where Section 930, Title 18, USC is it.

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Bill in VA wrote:

Also remember that once you enter a US military facility you fall under thelegal umbrella of the Uniform Code of Military Justice...a far different rubric than state/local law, US Code, and even the US Constitution to an extent. Military law and civil law are two completely different animals and a right you may have under one does not necessarily translate into a right under the other.

Click to expand...

No, as a civilian, you are not. The mere act of you, a civilian, being present on a military or naval installation does not make you subject to the code. Pls see, http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htmin particular, 802. ART. 2. PERSONS SUBJECT TO THIS CHAPTER.


Edit to correct spelling.

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Wow, triple tap....