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Thread: Will this help?

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    Hello, Im new to this forum. I a resident of Sacramento California. I believe the recent gay marriages were legalized because the government figured that it would make LOTS of money from the fees, which it did. I personally feel that it did help the economy with the fees that it brought in. What if California charged a reasonably large fee to get a permit to open carry? California can make lots of money off of a required safety course and money off the permit itself. What would you be willing to pay? I think it would be a point to be made to the state. Just imagine how much money it would bring in. It would blow away the amount that was brought in for the gay marriages in my opinion.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    What if the State of California charged a fee for public speaking? How about a fee to go to church? A fee to pray? How about a tax on air, water and food?

    They would certainly make a mint on all of those things too---

    Why? because they are essential liberties of a human being.

    So then, if we are to tax a liberty such as armed self-defense, let us not stop there- because if you can tax one, you can tax them all. And once you've sucessfully done that, then you can tax it out of existance by raising the fee.

    I think that is a 'no' for me thanks.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
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    I totally understand that reason. I guess I'm just looking at it in a different perspective. I do understand the whole "rights" issue (I do pay when I go to church by the way), however, I'm looking at it as a way of possibilities of getting legalization. I could just whine and pout about it and never see any change because its California, OR I can try and put out a solution and do whatever was possible to get it legalized. Just a theory. So if that was a possibility, it sounds like you would pass up the opportunity to do that because you don't want to pay extra fees? I'm looking at it differently then others are I think. I'm not only looking at it as a chance to express rights, but also to help the economy that is going down. I respect your thoughts, not trying to cause an argument. Thanks for the opinion.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    What is there to legalize? People may already legally open carry a firearm in the State of California, provided they abide by a number of ridiculous restrictions. (Granted, it usually means the firearm must be unloaded.)

    What we need is a concerted effort to decriminalize loaded carry and abolish 'gun-free' zones- such as school zones, public buildings, postal property, State and National parks.

    Here's the other thing- there already is a license available for carrying loaded and exposed. There isnt a single one issued in the State regardless of the fee. You see, this has been regulated into non-existance by both the legislators and the issuing authorities. The only thing keeping thisdemonstration going is that there is no statutory requirement to be licensed to carry afirearm.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    I refuse to ask any politician for any sort of permission to exercise my right to arms. I refuse to be tested or taxed for the same. I would rather have my gun pried out of my cold, dead fingers than to live knowing I participated in the buying/selling of a right.

    That goes for all the rights protected in The Bill of Rights, and a few that are not outlined there.
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    I do understand your point of view as well. I have a hard time putting in words what I'm trying to say. I'm a firm believer in carrying, however, it just seems like the law will never change regardless. I do understand that it is legal to open carry in California, but what good is it if its not loaded? The reason I suggested a course(safety) in order to get permission to carry loaded is because I don't know how wise it is to let certain people carry just because they are not felon's. Not everyone will know how and when to use a weapon in my opinion. Not everyone can make correct calls in a hostile situation. Now as for the fee's, I do understand both of your points of views as well. Hell, why should anyone have to pay extra for anything in this world? What I'm trying to say on that is that there might possibly be ways a politician might look at it and consider the fact that there are so many people pro carry and it might just be a way to open their minds. Money does weird things in this world. Anyhow, take care and good luck.

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    Greeting chemical, and welcome to the forum.

    As you can see from the other answers, coming up with a solution is easy. Coming up with a good one is hard.

    What you need to take into consideration is that people have been responsible for their own protection since the dawn of man. Sure, it makes since to require training...after all...there are a lot of idiots. But I do not agree. Although a trained and skilled person with a gun is more capable of defending themselves, it does not mean that an untrained unskilled person does not deserve the right to defend themselves or their families.

    Taking the course of action you suggest is giving the government more power to restrict our rights than I am comfortable with.

    Also, I will suggest one thing...they did do exactly what you suggest, but for concealed carry. . . But I ask you...why do you think they have the laws for concealed carry, and not open carry? Because even California was once a frontier land and understood the basic HUMAN RIGHT to defense of ones life and property.

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    chemicalreaction wrote:
    however, it just seems like the law will never change regardless.
    I disagree. We've finally seen it turn around, with the Heller victory. And after we win incorporation, 12031 is in the sights of many people. I think the probability is very high we'll get 12031 repealed or neutered.

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    Well to all that replied so far, thank you for your input. I'm not trying to cause chaos or some type of situation where everyone starts getting aggravated . I've yet to see someone carry open here in Sacramento and would really like to see that . Can someone please keep me posted if something like that does go on someday? I have a very busy schedule but would do my best to make the time. I look forward to meeting lots of you pro gun citizens.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    chemicalreaction wrote:
    Hello, Im new to this forum. I a resident of Sacramento California. I believe the recent gay marriages were legalized because the government figured that it would make LOTS of money from the fees, which it did. I personally feel that it did help the economy with the fees that it brought in. What if California charged a reasonably large fee to get a permit to open carry? California can make lots of money off of a required safety course and money off the permit itself. What would you be willing to pay? I think it would be a point to be made to the state. Just imagine how much money it would bring in. It would blow away the amount that was brought in for the gay marriages in my opinion.
    No, this could only hinder the advancement of liberty in California.

    This state is already overburdened with illogical, counterproductive, parasitical, and generally heinous regulation. I'm not sure I could stand to live here one day longer if the only future prospect for OC "freedom" included a fee, thus making it a privilege.

    California's extensive productivity only creates a fraction of the wealth it should, primarily due to immense overregulation. Money given to the state only serves to enable the government to "do" more (which always entails working for itself and against us) and creates a direct drain on the economy. The people of California cannot afford to pay the government to respect a privilege it is (or soon will be) required to respect.

    I demand my rights to be respected, I do not wish to ask permission for a privilege.


    chemicalreaction wrote:
    I have a very busy schedule but would do my best to make the time. I look forward to meeting lots of you pro gun citizens.
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/9588.html

    Hopefully we'll do another one soon. CA_Libertarian and I have been tossing around the idea of doing something in the Bay Area.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    chemicalreaction wrote:
    I totally understand that reason. I guess I'm just looking at it in a different perspective. I do understand the whole "rights" issue (I do pay when I go to church by the way), however, I'm looking at it as a way of possibilities of getting legalization. I could just whine and pout about it and never see any change because its California, OR I can try and put out a solution and do whatever was possible to get it legalized. Just a theory. So if that was a possibility, it sounds like you would pass up the opportunity to do that because you don't want to pay extra fees? I'm looking at it differently then others are I think. I'm not only looking at it as a chance to express rights, but also to help the economy that is going down. I respect your thoughts, not trying to cause an argument. Thanks for the opinion.
    Would you mind telling me exactly which State Agency gets your money for going to chruch?

    I think you mean to say "I do give when I go to church by the way".

    As far as passing up an opportunity, I would gladly pass up an opportunity to compromise my integrity for Government permission to exercise a RIGHT.

    I would gladly lay down my life to protect that right, but I will not lay down my beliefs that were bought with the blood of good and faithful men, our forefathers.

    They were unwilling to purchase from the British crown the rights that GOD had freely given them.

    I am unwilling to purchase from Sacramento the rights that GOD has freely given me.

    A right that is purchased is a PRIVILEDGE, not a RIGHT.

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    Ok, well if its a right then I would like to see you walk down the street with a loaded gun on the side of your hip. Is it going to happen? When will it ever happen? I'm just curious to know. You'll give up your life to protect that right? Good god, so its that important that you will die in order to carry a gun? Pretty sad. I feel that as a citizen I should have the right as well but I sure wouldn't go as low as to giving up my life.

    I don't pay a state agency to go to church. That wasn't the question though. I was asked if I pay to go to church. Never did the word state agency come up. Yes, I do pay when I go to church though every Sunday morning at 11 am mass.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    chemicalreaction wrote:
    Ok, well if its a right then I would like to see you walk down the street with a loaded gun on the side of your hip. Is it going to happen? When will it ever happen? I'm just curious to know. You'll give up your life to protect that right? Good god, so its that important that you will die in order to carry a gun? Pretty sad. I feel that as a citizen I should have the right as well but I sure wouldn't go as low as to giving up my life.

    I don't pay a state agency to go to church. That wasn't the question though. I was asked if I pay to go to church. Never did the word state agency come up. Yes, I do pay when I go to church though every Sunday morning at 11 am mass.
    Yes, if it is a right we should be seeing lots of people walk down the street with a loaded gun on their hip. We, unfortunately are not seeing a whole lot of participation in the excersize of rights. Americans have slowly and steadily given up their independencefor comfort.I am often guilty of such compromises.

    Our government was created solely to protect our rights. What we have today is a perversion of what we we are entitled to. Our Republic has been turned into a Socialist Oligarchy where our representatives seek out new ways to redistributewealth from those who earned it to the indigent, the lazy, the handicapped and to already obscenely wealthy banks and corporations. Much of this is done with the consent of a population made stupid by watching television and attending public schools, who believe that there is nothing wrong with giving away other people's money for charity, for public works that will never benefit them, for a military that goes overseas to protect other lands, and to service interest on debts that cannot be repaid.

    The answer to our State budget woes is not to continue the pattern of taxation of life and liberty- but to slash expenses and cut state services and programs.

    The moment we accept taxation on our essential liberities, we have surrendered them. We have allowed government to get a foot into the door of regulating them into oblivion. What's more, is this form of taxation is certain to have diminishing returns... the added hassle, the increased cost is a disincentive that will create fewer, not more taxpayers. It would be impossible to sustain a revenue stream that would satisfy the ever-increasing need of government.

    The question has been asked of gunowners from time to time- "What would you do if the government came to confiscate your guns?" And that is really what your questions above are really asking. Government is capable of using a number of tools to seperate a gun owner from his property- unconstitutional laws, the color of law in the form ofthreats of arrest, coersion, stiff fines and penalties, and the possibility of being killed by authorities imposing the governments will.

    This is where the line is drawn in the sand, you may stand only on one side or the other as there is no middle ground. You can live as a disarmed slave, subordinate to usurpers and thugs or you can make a stand in defense of liberty and lay your life on the line in opposition to tyrany. This isnt about dying to carry a gun... this is about protecting your self-determination, your freedom to choose. For me, I'd sooner die than to have someone force upon me their will, or allow them to seize what they have no lawful right to. If everyone felt like that, perhaps we would be living under a different government. I dont see that as such a 'low' thing to do.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    "The mark of an immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel

    While I would rather leave California and join a movement like the free state project rather than loose my weapons, we are at the point of having to give our lives in a fight for freedom. True, our rights have been severely trampled on by our government to the point where we can no longer live humbly for our cause as we will be individually targeted by LE and our rights will be stripped away one by one as we feed jet fuel to the media's fire against open carry in California, however we can still fight this injustice if we act as a single entity.

    We need organization across all of California. We can't afford memos being sent throughout California LE districts referring to open carriers as terrorists. Our efforts will have an exponentially greater positive effect if we carry often as a group, spending time together to coordinate our efforts into not just OCing during our daily lives, but taking part in a united effort to educate the people around us.

    We need the help of the NRA on this, and I'm not paying my membership fees to be ignored. Let's get their attention, and the best way to do so is to be organized.

    Theseus has already agreed to attempt a new LA county meeting when he returns from vacation. What days will you be available to attend a meeting? I know for sure I will be available on Sunday.

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    chemicalreaction wrote:
    Ok, well if its a right then I would like to see you walk down the street with a loaded gun on the side of your hip. Is it going to happen? When will it ever happen? I'm just curious to know. You'll give up your life to protect that right? Good god, so its that important that you will die in order to carry a gun? Pretty sad. I feel that as a citizen I should have the right as well but I sure wouldn't go as low as to giving up my life.

    I don't pay a state agency to go to church. That wasn't the question though. I was asked if I pay to go to church. Never did the word state agency come up. Yes, I do pay when I go to church though every Sunday morning at 11 am mass.
    Yes it is a right. Come on up to my neck of Kern County and we can walk down the sidewalk together with loaded openly carried guns.

    As far as being willing to give up my life for my rights, yes I am. But like the french resistance fighters were, not like the Islamofacist Suicide Bombers are. I prefer to fight the battles that I can win and survive. But if it ever came down to the "authorities" coming to take away all of our guns...well you know there are some lines that they would be foolish to cross, even if the cost were my life. I served 20 years active duty military, and have been in situations where I could have been required to lay my life down "To Support and defend the Constitution against ALL ENEMIES, foreign, or DOMESTIC." I see the majority of the gun laws in California as being unconstitutional. They were written by Domestic enemies. I will defend against them by fighting to get those laws overturned. By supporting those efforts with my money, my time, and if it ever gets to that point, my life.

    Oh yeah, the question was "Do you pay TO (in order to be able to) go to church." Not "Do you pay (tithe/offering/voluntary gift/poor box) when you go to church". There is a difference. If you pay to go to church, and you happen to show up on Sunday without you "fee" you get turned away, no ticket, no admission. If you pay when you go to church, then you are free to attend even if you haven't a penny to your name.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    VigilanceOfFreedom wrote:
    "The mark of an immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
    "A man without a cause worth dying for is not fit to live." —Martin Luther King, Jr.

    I just got back from a get together with about 21 other OC supporter, the majority of whom were open carrying down in San Diego. We were practicing "Civil Obedience" as we were in complete compliance with the law. We were seen by many people walking by and possible hundreds of patrons over the 5 hours we were there. Nobody freaked out, nobody called in SWAT. It was a good meeting where ordinary people got to see other ordinay people with guns on their sides.

    I get to the meetups that I can fit into my schedule. This one just happened to be on a day when I could drive 450 miles round trip to eat lunch and discuss open carry and help educate and encourage some of the newer folks who have yet to OC.

    Now is not the time for Civil Disobedience as it is counterproductive to the cause. But so is capitulation by begging for more ways in which the Government can regulate our carry and more ways that we must ask permission from our "sovreign leaders".

    Once the Nordyke case is settled, and incorporation is won, then a time for Civil Disobedience maycome. Well timed, and well documented instances of people violating unconstitutional laws for the sole purpose of having them overturned and wiped off of the California Penal Code.

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    Decoligny wrote
    "A man without a cause worth dying for is not fit to live." —Martin Luther King, Jr.
    Touche my friend! I'm glad to hear everything went well. Unfortunately, my schedule did not allow me the time to make it to San Diego. I hope we can organize a similar display in the South Bay area. Thank you for representing those of us who could not make it for one reason or another.

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    chemicalreaction wrote:
    Ok, well if its a right then I would like to see you walk down the street with a loaded gun on the side of your hip. Is it going to happen? When will it ever happen? I'm just curious to know. You'll give up your life to protect that right? Good god, so its that important that you will die in order to carry a gun? Pretty sad. I feel that as a citizen I should have the right as well but I sure wouldn't go as low as to giving up my life.
    So, it is your opinion that rights are determined by what you can get away with without ******* off the authorities? So blacks didn't have the right to ride in the front of the bus until Rosa Parks put her life and liberty on the line? I object to your logic! The rights we are born with can be infringed upon, but never erased from existance. We are merely enduring systematic repression in some states.

    As for giving life and liberty in the fight for rights...

    I can't think of any gentle way to put it, but any person unwilling to die for their rights is a coward. They are not deserving of the rights the courageous men and women will win for them.

    Now, that does not mean that loss of liberty or life is the only way to fight for our rights. In fact, as a peace-loving person, I would much prefer to regain our rights through peaceful activism rather than violence. However, if ever there comes a time where violence is our only recourse, you can bet my guns will be pried from my cold, dead fingers.

    I'm sure the authorities are relieved to know you'll give up your rights at the prospect of discomfort. I will give them no such comfort. I would rather be dead than an enslaved coward.

    Give me liberty, or give me death.
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    Better to go the 'save money' route....
    If enough good guys OC, then the prison population expense will drop.
    Courts would be freed up, and they can brag about the savings.
    Of couse they wouldn't need as many bad cops to harrass people, that is a
    governments loss, but mostly win/win.



  20. #20
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    VigilanceOfFreedom wrote:
    "The mark of an immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
    Great source for the quote: Wilhelm Stekel - obscure psychologist, briefly associated with Freud- cause of death: suicide.

    Guess he couldn't even find a cause he was willing to live humbly for.

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    I guess he couldn't, but even people with great causes don't live by the code they preach, for example, MLK cheated on his wife . Anyway I didn't plan to argue over the lifestyle of others...

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    ConditionThree wrote:
    What if the State of California charged a fee for public speaking?

    actually here in fresno, ca one must obtain a permit and write out a complete detailed plan of what you will do and talk about to the local police before you can do a (peaceful) public demonstration.

    the problem is that we are already slowly loosing all of our rights and we dont notice because they take such small steps in doing so. inch by inch we loose without notice.

    Ex.2 reasonable bail? on average only 20% of people get under $5,000 bail. 24% get between $10,000 and $24,999, while 23% get $50,000 or more. If that is resonable bail then we all must have some pretty big sock drawers!

    Ex.3 the obvious reason we are all here on these forums is because gun laws being to invasivel; let alone the extreme trouble one must go through to even own a firearm. the state does so to discourage ownership all together.

    Honestly i can ramble on and on about how the government slowly siphons away our rights until all we become are walking consumers that lack the ability to operate something we just bought out of impulse becausea colorful advertisement justtold us to.

    i get worked up easilyabout these things.

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    So if you tell police dept that your having a peaceful demonstration pertaining to the right to open carry, they can tell you no even though you have the right to carry a unloaded weapon? I wonder if Sacramento is the same way. That sucks

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    chemicalreaction wrote:
    So if you tell police dept that your having a peaceful demonstration pertaining to the right to open carry, they can tell you no even though you have the right to carry a unloaded weapon? I wonder if Sacramento is the same way. That sucks

    if im not mistaken, it is a city ordnance. so although its an extreme abuse of our 1st amendment right, they still get away with it.

    1. because theres less people there to review the ordnance then there is compared to a national law, so people are less likely to notice or even try to apeal the law.

    2. people see it as a good thing because people dont know the difference between peaceful and violent protest/assembly. people think protest and see budhist burning themselves, or hippies fighting roit cops. so they think an ordnance banning it would be good.


    which goes along with gun control. people think: no guns=no violence

    when we see it differently: no guns=no ability ofself defense


    tricky tricky.


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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    "...it just seems like the law will never change regardless."'The LAW" is unconstitutional... written and enforced by Domestic Enemies (as has been observed previously). The 'law' has been in place for so long it's accepted as 'legitimate'. It is not. It is in violation of the US Constitution. Few care. Most think that Rights are granted by government anyway. (They are not)

    I have 'paid' for a state issued Permit to carry concealed. I do not pay to 'carry' (loaded) in the free exercise of my pre-existing Right as recognized by the US and Arizona Constitutions to defend myself if need be. You 'pay' for a privledge... or license... butNEVER a Right. That payment has already been paid in full...with the blood of American patriots.

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