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Thread: OUTRAGEOUS

  1. #1
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    OK, fair warning here Venator... sit down and take some blood pressure medication. You're going to explode. Rather than typing everything out again, I'll just let the group read my letter to my police chief. I have gone from slightly annoyed to extremely outraged, back to annoyed, and now somewhere in between. OK, here it is:

    Edit note: I have not sent this letter yet. Am I being too forgiving, am I being a whiner? Either way, I fear the police chief in Eastpointe will after this know me on a personal level for reasons less than ideal. Man, I'm just so pissed again!

    Dear Chief:



    I am writing your this informal letter to express my concerns over an incident which occurred upon my property tonight at approximately 6:00 p.m. While the situation could call for a formal complaint, I am choosing to exercise a balance of understanding and cooperation just as I expect the members of your fine force do in their everyday tasks.



    The situation as it played out is as follows:



    Shortly after arriving home from work, I went to my front porch to smoke a cigarette as my wife is two months pregnant and I no longer smoke in my home. Being a warmer and rather exhausting day today, my cover shirt was the first thing to go as I started to wind down for the evening leaving my pistol partially exposed inside its holster. An officer on patrol came down my street and noticed my weapon. Many would say, and I would agree that it is a great thing that the officer took notice and looked into it. However, it is from here that a chain of unfortunate events took place.



    1.) The officer came upon my property with his weapon already drawn. Now I understand how fast a situation can go bad, but also consider the fact that from the moment the officer put his patrol car into reverse gear, my hands never moved from my sides. Not a huge deal, certainly not worth writing a letter over.

    2.) As the officer was walking up to my porch, he asked if I lived upon the premises, to which I answered yes. The events after this point are where I really start to take issue. The officer could have asked me for my address and see if I could provide it without looking at the house numbers. He could have checked the tags on either of my vehicles before he even approached my property to see if I gave the same name the vehicles were registered to. Rather, the officer came upon my property and requested my identification. Now, I do not have a problem identifying myself under almost any circumstance. But the events taken along with the process created more issues that could have been avoided.

    3.) Because the officer needed my identification which would not be accessible without him having legitimate risk of me reaching my weapon, he chose to disarm me. I do take issue with this due to the fact that I had not broken any law or caused any grief. Most alarming was the method of the disarmament. I understand that officer can probably handle most any type of handgun safely, but the officer had come up to the edge of my flower bed, reached over it and up over the railing to remove the firearm. I feel it well worth making a note that given a worst case scenario, that moment in time could have been a serious disaster should I have not been an honest law-abiding citizen. The officer’s center of gravity had to have been compromised to some extent; it would have been an easy task for the person in that situation to launch a surprise attack on the officer. In addition, what if the officer lost his balance in the middle of lifting my weapon from its holster? Let’s just say everyone is happy neither situation occurred.

    4.) So at this point the officer is assured of his safety and I am requested to go ahead and provide my identification which I did. Now, the next step was the clear cut, absolute no reason for it, outright violation rights. I was then asked to provide my CPL license. There was absolutely no grounds whatsoever for that. It had already been established that I was the legal owner of the property; even without a CPL I would not be in violation of any Michigan law carrying my weapon in any manor.

    5.) While my last issue is not a violation rights, it is perhaps the most disheartening. I was advised that even though I was within my rights and the boundaries of law, I was perhaps exercising bad judgment. Well, if making provisions to protect myself and my family are bad judgment, then you can brand me an idiot.



    It is my sincerest hope that this communication will be seen as an honest attempt to have a productive correspondence. It is my hope that perhaps some of the issues pointed out will be mentioned in future training sessions.



    So that is the bad. However, I would like to also add that the officer, as well as all of the backup units that followed, were cordial and professional in their demeanor. Their investigation, partially unlawful as it may have been, was completed expediently and we parted ways with a wave goodbye. All things being said from my side, I would certainly be happy to hear your viewpoint on the subjects discussed.



    In closing, I would like to again thank the entire force for the service they provide and the sacrifices they make.



    Regards,







    Jeff Sayers



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  2. #2
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    I think the letter is good. I would definitely send it in, as the police acted outside their boundaries, as most people seem to do in regards to open carry. People seem to think that open carry isn't legal, or that there is something blatantly wrong with it. Today for example, I went to the shooting range in Madison Heights, and was told once I got to the gun store, that I was not allowed to open carry in their store unless I was a LEO. I immediately mentioned that every worker in the store was open carrying, and that is is completely legal in the state of Michigan to open carry. I was then told to then read the rules of the store, in which of course, mentioned absolutely nothing of open carry, and only said that if I had a CPL, to please keep my weapon concealed. I do not have a CPL, and therefore, I cannot by law keep my weapon concealed. There is nothing stated that says no firearms, or no open carry. I then proceeded to continue to argue the point, and promptly left the store, shocked that of all places, a gun store made negative mention of my open carry, especially since each of their employees are able to exorcise their 2nd amendment rights, but their customers are apparently not.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    Thanks for the support. I just wonder if perhaps I should make it a formal complaint.

    What really enrages me is the fact that this is beyond an unlawful restriction of open carry. I was on my own private property! I can carry a gun up my butthole if I so choose! And the more I look at the manor in which I was disarmed, the more I realize how unsafe it was. I'll send in pictures later, but the officer had to have reached around six feet from where his feet were, one handed to remove my weapon. Talk about he is lucky I am one of the good guys. He had to have been off-balance when doing so; and at that point the three backup cars were not even there yet!

    I think perhaps I shouldn't have let him disarm me, but my ID was in my wallet, directly underneath my pistol. I just think he could have used an alternative method to verify my status as the homeowner.



    GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

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  4. #4
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    I agree. Being disarmed on your own property seems self-defeating in a way. I would definitely send the letter in. I don't know if it'll have an impact, but it's always worth a try. Even an apology would be nice in my opinion.
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    That sounds annoying, Jeff.

    I think you gave away half the store by not refusing consent.

    It is my personal understanding from viewing the FlexYourRights video that when an LEO asks and you consent, you have waived your rights. You write that he asked and requested. Had you refused consent, you might now have stronger agreement, perhaps even within the department, that you were done wrong.

    This does not prevent you from making a complaint, however. Your First Amendment right to petition the government for redress of grievance does not hinge on the government doing something illegal--if it did, the government could just pass laws endlessly giving themselves more and more power and us less and less to petition about.

    One thing that might strengthen yourposition is: Did the LEO truly ask? Or were they really demands couchedas requests?

    If they were really demands, you should edit to reflect that.

    If not, I might focus the point that you really don't appreciate LEOs pestering you on your own property, telling them not to bother arguing that you could have been a bad guy, because you also could have been the property owner. You might also tell them that next time the officer will meet refused consent every step of the way including access to the property.

    Heck, you could even try saying that further attempts at consensual contact on your own property are unwelcome, and that this letter serves as notification against trespass.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  6. #6
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    I'm ok with officers observing armed folk onprivate property and going on to the property to ask questions, with at least an articulable reasonable suspicion. For instance, do thearmed folk appear to be brandishingor is there something matching the description of recentunresolved burglaries/home invasions/rapes in the vicinity?

    Otherwise, the government has no business interrupting you.

    The officer drawing the weapon may very well have committedan unreasonable displayof force if your weapon remained holstered and your hands did not go near it. There is such a thing as police officers being guilty of the crime of brandishing, while on duty. Didyou feel unreasonably scared and threatened, andare there attorneys willing to look into the facts of your incident, on contingency of course?


    ETA: There should be plenty of attorneys willing to work on contingency, what with the current economy and all.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Let me guess: Double Action? I have taken a strong disliking to that place. I have never heard such gun rag BS and flat out mis-information as in that store/range. Glad to see someone from the hometown is OCing.

    Jeff:

    Personally, I think that requires more than a letter. I think that the letter should be sent as an explanation that accompanies the formal complaint. Eastpointe is already Nazi-esque in governing the day-to-day actions of its residents (cough, code enforcement), and that needs to stop. If you were stopped at the corner store buying milk on the way home, ok. But on Your Front Porch!!! Inexcusable. I am not irate or anything, but a line has to be drawn. I am willing to be stopped on the street to educate the local cops, but my home is my home. He should have know better than to take your gun on your property. If it were me it would be your letter plus a formal complaint, and depending on the response, a lawsuit. If they apologize and get in line, fine. If not, contact a lawyer.

    -Rob

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    Let me guess: Double Action? I have taken a strong disliking to that place. I have never heard such gun rag BS and flat out mis-information as in that store/range. Glad to see someone from the hometown is OCing.

    Jeff:

    Personally, I think that requires more than a letter. I think that the letter should be sent as an explanation that accompanies the formal complaint. Eastpointe is already Nazi-esque in governing the day-to-day actions of its residents (cough, code enforcement), and that needs to stop. If you were stopped at the corner store buying milk on the way home, ok. But on Your Front Porch!!! Inexcusable. I am not irate or anything, but a line has to be drawn. I am willing to be stopped on the street to educate the local cops, but my home is my home. He should have know better than to take your gun on your property. If it were me it would be your letter plus a formal complaint, and depending on the response, a lawsuit. If they apologize and get in line, fine. If not, contact a lawyer.

    -Rob
    Yes, it was Double Action. I decided to try their range as opposed to Target Sports' range. I'll not be making that mistake again. The owner of the store was eyeballing my gun the first five minutes I was in the store, but didn't say a word. I shot off some rounds on the range, and one of the ladies behind the counter was the one that informed me of her 'on the spot made up rules'. Maybe she's new, maybe she's just an idiot that doesn't know the law. Either way, I was pretty ticked off that a gun store of all places would have a problem with my OC.

    Edit: Sorry if I've caused a tangent in the thread, it was unintentional.
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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    SNIP But on Your Front Porch!!!
    Somebody has to be creative enough to re-write the lyrics below to fit Jeff's situation.



    Just got home from Illinois;

    Lock the front door, oh boy.

    Got to sit down, take a rest on the porch.

    Imagination sets in, pretty soon I'm singing,

    Doo, doo, doo, looking out my back door.

    There's giants doing cartwheels; statues wearing high heels...

    http://www.yamelo.com/clip/creedence...back-door.html




    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    OK, still can't sleep. Just had a thought to share. Of course, one of the backup officers made the comment about my "perhaps poor judgement". I am wondering, if someone saw me in my backyard taking a roast out of the smoker with a big knife to carve it, would they come screaming over because of a "man with a knife" call?

    Everyone, thanks for your feedback.

    To all the current and retired law enforcement, would a formal complaint result in reprimand of the officer,possiblyup to termination.That is one thing I do not want to see happen. I think. Pretty sure. Can I request that it just be made a matter of record and hope they learn both about respecting my rights and safety for themselves and the public hey serve?

    Anyway:

    Citizen:

    Thnaks for you insight. Now that you mention it, the disarming was actually not a request. It was pretty much just orders. I will have to go back and see if I wrote it up right, I may have skipped a step but theofficer asked if Ilived on the property. I said yes and then I offered the fact that myID was inmy back pocket and he could come and get my ID. Sorry, everyone, but for me I can appreciate that much. I just didn't know how far it would go. I certainly can't refuse them consent, I prefer to work with the police rather than against them. not to mention that a few months back when my coffee pot broke in the middle of the night, I was all too happy to have them over. I protected the bedrooms (my young sister-in-law was here that night too as fate would have it) while they came and cleared the house from the outside.

    Dan:

    I think you are right on with the brandishing. That was actually one of my first comments to my neighbor after they left. I wasn't unreasonably scared or anything, but I did find it to be extremely rude and improper for him to come on my property like that. I think I will address that a little better in a revision.

    Rob and Malignity:

    I think the apology will be my goal. Hell, I don't even care if it just verbal. I just feel it is owed.
    United we STAND!

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    This is flat out, no BS, time for a complaint.I would be as vocal and detailed as possible when filing. The officers were not acting "professionally"! They were acting outside the law and are no better than the criminal trash that they clean up on a daily basis. Their job is to learn and know the law, and guess what? They failed that test. This will get swept under the rug and disappear if something is not done.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Maybe instead of Belle Isle we should have the next gathering in Eastpointe? Just a thought. I think that you should make a formal complaint against the officer, because as cordial and professional as he was, he was doing something illegal. I would also CC this letter to the Mayor and members of city council. my .02

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    What he (the officer) did was not brandishing, it was FELONIOUS ASSAULT !

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    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    I am even more pissed this morning. I can't stop thinking about how thiswent down. I am mad at myself for even playing along with the game, I wish I had just gotten up and walked into my house when saw his car go in reverse.

    What is the procedure for filing a complaint?
    United we STAND!

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    JeffSayers wrote:
    I am even more pissed this morning. I can't stop thinking about how thiswent down. I am mad at myself for even playing along with the game, I wish I had just gotten up and walked into my house when saw his car go in reverse.

    What is the procedure for filing a complaint?
    Don't be angry at all with yourself. And don't be too angry about what's already done, it can't be changed. Turn your feelings into determination to do what you think is right (the complaint and/or any other legal remedies).

    Don't be hard on yourself. You were confronted with something pretty much by surprise and you handled it as best you could on the fly. Look at it this way, you have an experience you can reflect on and adjust your behavior as necessary for the future.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    Thanks for the encouragementDan.

    I just hope I am able to think faster in future situations.You know, it wasso easy reading other's stories and quickly thinking about how "I would have reacted", but when a cop walks up to you with a gun drawn, it is an entirely different situation.

    I guess this is proof positive that in a stressful situation you default to your level of training. For me and many, I am sure the only training as far as police confrontations gois to obey orders.
    United we STAND!

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    JeffSayers wrote:
    OK, fair warning here Venator... sit down and take some blood pressure medication. You're going to explode. Rather than typing everything out again, I'll just let the group read my letter to my police chief. I have gone from slightly annoyed to extremely outraged, back to annoyed, and now somewhere in between. OK, here it is:

    Edit note: I have not sent this letter yet. Am I being too forgiving, am I being a whiner? Either way, I fear the police chief in Eastpointe will after this know me on a personal level for reasons less than ideal. Man, I'm just so pissed again!

    Dear Chief:



    I am writing your this informal letter to express my concerns over an incident which occurred upon my property tonight at approximately 6:00 p.m. While the situation could call for a formal complaint, I am choosing to exercise a balance of understanding and cooperation just as I expect the members of your fine force do in their everyday tasks.



    The situation as it played out is as follows:



    Shortly after arriving home from work, I went to my front porch to smoke a cigarette as my wife is two months pregnant and I no longer smoke in my home. Being a warmer and rather exhausting day today, my cover shirt was the first thing to go as I started to wind down for the evening leaving my pistol partially exposed inside its holster. An officer on patrol came down my street and noticed my weapon. Many would say, and I would agree that it is a great thing that the officer took notice and looked into it. However, it is from here that a chain of unfortunate events took place.



    1.) The officer came upon my property with his weapon already drawn. Now I understand how fast a situation can go bad, but also consider the fact that from the moment the officer put his patrol car into reverse gear, my hands never moved from my sides. Not a huge deal, certainly not worth writing a letter over.

    2.) As the officer was walking up to my porch, he asked if I lived upon the premises, to which I answered yes. The events after this point are where I really start to take issue. The officer could have asked me for my address and see if I could provide it without looking at the house numbers. He could have checked the tags on either of my vehicles before he even approached my property to see if I gave the same name the vehicles were registered to. Rather, the officer came upon my property and requested my identification. Now, I do not have a problem identifying myself under almost any circumstance. But the events taken along with the process created more issues that could have been avoided.

    3.) Because the officer needed my identification which would not be accessible without him having legitimate risk of me reaching my weapon, he chose to disarm me. I do take issue with this due to the fact that I had not broken any law or caused any grief. Most alarming was the method of the disarmament. I understand that officer can probably handle most any type of handgun safely, but the officer had come up to the edge of my flower bed, reached over it and up over the railing to remove the firearm. I feel it well worth making a note that given a worst case scenario, that moment in time could have been a serious disaster should I have not been an honest law-abiding citizen. The officer’s center of gravity had to have been compromised to some extent; it would have been an easy task for the person in that situation to launch a surprise attack on the officer. In addition, what if the officer lost his balance in the middle of lifting my weapon from its holster? Let’s just say everyone is happy neither situation occurred.

    4.) So at this point the officer is assured of his safety and I am requested to go ahead and provide my identification which I did. Now, the next step was the clear cut, absolute no reason for it, outright violation rights. I was then asked to provide my CPL license. There was absolutely no grounds whatsoever for that. It had already been established that I was the legal owner of the property; even without a CPL I would not be in violation of any Michigan law carrying my weapon in any manor.

    5.) While my last issue is not a violation rights, it is perhaps the most disheartening. I was advised that even though I was within my rights and the boundaries of law, I was perhaps exercising bad judgment. Well, if making provisions to protect myself and my family are bad judgment, then you can brand me an idiot.



    It is my sincerest hope that this communication will be seen as an honest attempt to have a productive correspondence. It is my hope that perhaps some of the issues pointed out will be mentioned in future training sessions.



    So that is the bad. However, I would like to also add that the officer, as well as all of the backup units that followed, were cordial and professional in their demeanor. Their investigation, partially unlawful as it may have been, was completed expediently and we parted ways with a wave goodbye. All things being said from my side, I would certainly be happy to hear your viewpoint on the subjects discussed.



    In closing, I would like to again thank the entire force for the service they provide and the sacrifices they make.



    Regards,







    Jeff Sayers


    Do not send this letter, yet.

    I'm working on a more detailed response as to why. Will post when finished.

  18. #18
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    ghostrider wrote:

    Do not send this letter, yet.

    I'm working on a more detailed response as to why. Will post when finished.
    I appreciate it, I will wait for your response.
    United we STAND!

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    First, I will say that you did a good job in a difficult situation. You were caught off guard (shouldn't have been while OC, as situational awareness should be a rule, and that includes being prepared to deal with these encounters, but it happens) in your safe zone at the end of a hot, exhausting day. I keep telling people to read my "wash, rinse, repeat" posts, but it just doesn't seem to be getting across, especially with so many newer members on the forum (maybe I should start a thread on it sometime). Notice that this would have been a great time to have a personal recorder with you, to not only have evidence of what was said, but also to help in remembering the events.

    The fact that what happened didn't involve further legal trouble, makes it a success. I going to take a guess and say that your angry because you feel like you've been "stepped on", and deep down inside you might even blame yourself a little (which may be why you rationalized giving up your rights). Fact is, it's probably a little of both.

    I didn't see anywhere in your OP that you asked the officer for under suspicion of what crime he was detaining you, or his reasonable suspicion for that crime. People are calling for a formal complaint, but without that (the officers stated reasonable suspicion), I see little to complain about (if we wish to hold police accountable to these standards, then we also have to maintain them), other than the lecturing, and safety issues.

    Nevertheless, many have called for a complaint, so lets analyze what there really is to complain about, as well as point out some things in your letter that may (or may not) be helpful.



    JeffSayers wrote:
    1.) The officer came upon my property with his weapon already drawn. Now I understand how fast a situation can go bad, but also consider the fact that from the moment the officer put his patrol car into reverse gear, my hands never moved from my sides. Not a huge deal, certainly not worth writing a letter over.
    If not a "huge deal", or "not worth writing a letter over", then why put it in the letter?

    I also doubt they will give much relevance to, "my hands never moved from my sides."


    JeffSayers wrote:
    2.) As the officer was walking up to my porch, he asked if I lived upon the premises, to which I answered yes. The events after this point are where I really start to take issue. The officer could have asked me for my address and see if I could provide it without looking at the house numbers. He could have checked the tags on either of my vehicles before he even approached my property to see if I gave the same name the vehicles were registered to. Rather, the officer came upon my property and requested my identification. Now, I do not have a problem identifying myself under almost any circumstance. But the events taken along with the process created more issues that could have been avoided.
    Just as we don't care to hear officers lecture us on our mode of carry, I'm sure they will take your remonstrations under the same sort of advisement. He did nothing wrong with asking for your ID. So yes, complaining about it will probably come accross as whining.

    TBH, it sounds a lot like someone who states, "why can't you just shoot him in the leg, instead of kill him?!!":shock:

    JeffSayers wrote:
    3.) Because the officer needed my identification which would not be accessible without him having legitimate risk of me reaching my weapon, he chose to disarm me.
    Did the officer tell you this, or did you just surmise it. If he didn't tell you this, then leave it out, as it is speculation. Furthermore, the officer did not "need" your identification. Keep it simple and state that he disarmed you for officer safety. Not that it means much, because they are allowed to do that.

    Furthermore, you earlier gave other options for why the officer did not need your ID, and expressed your discontent with the request, now your saying he "needed" it.




    JeffSayers wrote:
    I do take issue with this due to the fact that I had not broken any law or caused any grief.
    This reason with which you "take issue" with it, is irrelevant. What matters is that the officer can articulate a reasonable suspicion that a crime is a foot, and that you are a suspect in that crime. Did you ask him for what crime he was detaining you for? Did you ask him to state his reasonable suspicion? Without that information, your belief that you'd broken no law, or caused any grief is irrelevant.


    JeffSayers wrote:
    Most alarming was the method of the disarmament.
    That is a good point to start. Demonstrate you concern for both your safety and that of the officer. There have been many reports on officers having trouble with retention holsters, and the proper handling of various handguns unfamiliar to them. This is something that should be addressed.



    JeffSayers wrote:
    I understand that officer can probably handle most any type of handgun safely
    Really! Have you read many of the reports of officers disarming citizens. I submit that it's an area where they need more training.

    If this is just speculation on your part, then leave it out and stick to only relevant points.



    JeffSayers wrote:
    but the officer had come up to the edge of my flower bed, reached over it and up over the railing to remove the firearm. I feel it well worth making a note that given a worst case scenario, that moment in time could have been a serious disaster should I have not been an honest law-abiding citizen. The officer’s center of gravity had to have been compromised to some extent; it would have been an easy task for the person in that situation to launch a surprise attack on the officer. In addition, what if the officer lost his balance in the middle of lifting my weapon from its holster? Let’s just say everyone is happy neither situation occurred.
    This right here is the heart of your complaint. It focuses on officer safety (they probably don't care about your safety). However, understand that they will give the officer the benefit of the doubt having not been there. How easy would it have been for the officer to just come up on your porch?



    JeffSayers wrote:
    So at this point the officer is assured of his safety and I am requested to go ahead and provide my identification which I did.
    No problem there. They can ask. While I think it worthwhile to complain about him demanding it, I doubt they'll have a problem with it.

    JeffSayers wrote:
    Now, the next step was the clear cut, absolute no reason for it, outright violation rights. I was then asked to provide my CPL license. There was absolutely no grounds whatsoever for that. It had already been established that I was the legal owner of the property; even without a CPL I would not be in violation of any Michigan law carrying my weapon in any manor.
    No problem with that, and it's not a violation of your rights. He can ask anything he wants (for the most part). What matters is you gave it to him. You make it sound like you let him intimidate you, and are now angry because his attempt at intimidation was successful. They are trained to do that, so I doubt complaining about it will do much good, but will likely come across as that "whining" that your trying to avoid.

    Now, had you refused to provide ID, and CPL, and then gotten into trouble over it, then you might have a complaint.

    JeffSayers wrote:
    While my last issue is not a violation rights, it is perhaps the most disheartening. I was advised that even though I was within my rights and the boundaries of law, I was perhaps exercising bad judgment. Well, if making provisions to protect myself and my family are bad judgment, then you can brand me an idiot.
    They probably will. Don't leave them that opening. Simply state that it is unprofessional to editorialize on the law, and out of place to lecture you on proper judgment.


    JeffSayers wrote:
    So that is the bad. However, I would like to also add that the officer, as well as all of the backup units that followed, were cordial and professional in their demeanor.
    First you point out unprofessional behavior, then you tell them they were professional. Lecturing you on the poor judgment of OC is not professional. Don't dress it up.


    JeffSayers wrote:
    Their investigation, partially unlawful as it may have been,
    How do we know it was unlawful? I've seen nothing in your OP to indicate so.



    You may well have a valid complaint against an unlawful detention, but without more information we just don't know. If your serious about this, then it would be best to get the FOIA work going to get the proper documents of the encounter to better know what, exactly happened. Once you have that material/info, you'll be better prepared to file a complaint.


    Look People,

    I understand that this looks like he was unlawfully detained, and his rights violated, but without more information, we really can't make any kind of determination that is worthy of a complaint. Sure, we can speculate, and we'd probably be correct in our speculation, but that doesn't mean a hill of beans if he (or anyone else) plans to take it through official channels.


    Jeff,

    There is something else I want to add. This is possible "lawyer material". Before sending any letter, it would be best if you contacted a lawyer about it. That way he'll know how to best handle the incident. Get the FOIA stuff, and take it to the lawyer. If my read on this is correct, then this was nothing but straight up harassment and intimidation. If that's true, and you continue to OC, then there's a good chance there will be more of the same. Best to get the history on record now, then to wait until it's too late, or less effective.

  20. #20
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    JeffSayers wrote:
    I just hope I am able to think faster in future situations.You know, it wasso easy reading other's stories and quickly thinking about how "I would have reacted", but when a cop walks up to you with a gun drawn, it is an entirely different situation.
    Absolutely. So, how does one increase one'schances of properly executing LEO interaction, when in an actual situation? Practice. Here are some suggestions:

    While practicing by yourself isn't optimum, at least audibly speakingtypical or expected police questions and your responses does begin to accustom your mind and mouth to being coordinated for aninteraction.

    Optimally, roleplay with someone else. Take turns being the "officer" and the "lawfully armed citizen." The "officer" should randomly roleplay a calm, professional officer who knows the law or an overreacting officer who is ignorant of the law. This allows the "citizen" to practice either being willingly compliant in conversingwith an officerandgoing along with reasonablerequests or going into a strict mode of "open carry is legal in Michigan . . . am I being detained? . . . am i free to go?"

    The roleplaying is best done in person, but is at least somewhat effective over the phone as well, if distance from your buddy is a factor. Also, I think it would be a good thing to have at our picnics and gatherings, for those who wish to participate. You know, "over there is frisbee, over there is horseshoes, and over there is LEO interaction roleplaying for those who wish to perfect their technique.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  21. #21
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    Thank you for your feedback Ghostrider.

    I was hot at the time of my initial writting, and I am very glad I didn't simply email it to the chief as it does need revision.


    After getting everyone's feedback, I see now that I need to clean my letter up and be much more concise and factual. Iwill move forward in an informal manor holding further action pending the response.




    I THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR COMMENTS AND FEEDBACK!
    United we STAND!

  22. #22
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    JeffSayers wrote:
    OK, fair warning here Venator... sit down and take some blood pressure medication. You're going to explode. Rather than typing everything out again, I'll just let the group read my letter to my police chief. I have gone from slightly annoyed to extremely outraged, back to annoyed, and now somewhere in between. OK, here it is:

    Edit note: I have not sent this letter yet. Am I being too forgiving, am I being a whiner? Either way, I fear the police chief in Eastpointe will after this know me on a personal level for reasons less than ideal. Man, I'm just so pissed again!

    Dear Chief:



    I am writing your this informal letter to express my concerns over an incident which occurred upon my property tonight at approximately 6:00 p.m. While the situation could call for a formal complaint, I am choosing to exercise a balance of understanding and cooperation just as I expect the members of your fine force do in their everyday tasks.



    The situation as it played out is as follows:



    Shortly after arriving home from work, I went to my front porch to smoke a cigarette as my wife is two months pregnant and I no longer smoke in my home. Being a warmer and rather exhausting day today, my cover shirt was the first thing to go as I started to wind down for the evening leaving my pistol partially exposed inside its holster. An officer on patrol came down my street and noticed my weapon. Many would say, and I would agree that it is a great thing that the officer took notice and looked into it. However, it is from here that a chain of unfortunate events took place.



    1.) The officer came upon my property with his weapon already drawn. Now I understand how fast a situation can go bad, but also consider the fact that from the moment the officer put his patrol car into reverse gear, my hands never moved from my sides. Not a huge deal, certainly not worth writing a letter over.

    2.) As the officer was walking up to my porch, he asked if I lived upon the premises, to which I answered yes. The events after this point are where I really start to take issue. The officer could have asked me for my address and see if I could provide it without looking at the house numbers. He could have checked the tags on either of my vehicles before he even approached my property to see if I gave the same name the vehicles were registered to. Rather, the officer came upon my property and requested my identification. Now, I do not have a problem identifying myself under almost any circumstance. But the events taken along with the process created more issues that could have been avoided.

    3.) Because the officer needed my identification which would not be accessible without him having legitimate risk of me reaching my weapon, he chose to disarm me. I do take issue with this due to the fact that I had not broken any law or caused any grief. Most alarming was the method of the disarmament. I understand that officer can probably handle most any type of handgun safely, but the officer had come up to the edge of my flower bed, reached over it and up over the railing to remove the firearm. I feel it well worth making a note that given a worst case scenario, that moment in time could have been a serious disaster should I have not been an honest law-abiding citizen. The officer’s center of gravity had to have been compromised to some extent; it would have been an easy task for the person in that situation to launch a surprise attack on the officer. In addition, what if the officer lost his balance in the middle of lifting my weapon from its holster? Let’s just say everyone is happy neither situation occurred.

    4.) So at this point the officer is assured of his safety and I am requested to go ahead and provide my identification which I did. Now, the next step was the clear cut, absolute no reason for it, outright violation rights. I was then asked to provide my CPL license. There was absolutely no grounds whatsoever for that. It had already been established that I was the legal owner of the property; even without a CPL I would not be in violation of any Michigan law carrying my weapon in any manor.

    5.) While my last issue is not a violation rights, it is perhaps the most disheartening. I was advised that even though I was within my rights and the boundaries of law, I was perhaps exercising bad judgment. Well, if making provisions to protect myself and my family are bad judgment, then you can brand me an idiot.



    It is my sincerest hope that this communication will be seen as an honest attempt to have a productive correspondence. It is my hope that perhaps some of the issues pointed out will be mentioned in future training sessions.



    So that is the bad. However, I would like to also add that the officer, as well as all of the backup units that followed, were cordial and professional in their demeanor. Their investigation, partially unlawful as it may have been, was completed expediently and we parted ways with a wave goodbye. All things being said from my side, I would certainly be happy to hear your viewpoint on the subjects discussed.



    In closing, I would like to again thank the entire force for the service they provide and the sacrifices they make.



    Regards,







    Jeff Sayers


    The BP medication wasn't enough. Get off my property comes to mind. Guns draw is the part I am most outraged at. The disarming and asking for the CPL is a close second. I would start with a letter...see how they react and then if you need to make a formal complaint do so. Right know is a learning opportunity for the PD, see how they deal with it. If you complain formally they have ways of retribution you may not like. All that was needed was for the LEO to ask you if you lived there. Ask your name so he could match it to the address and that was it. Or he could have asked your wife to say that you both owned the property and that should have been it. But back-up, disarming, etc.. crap.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  23. #23
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    DanM wrote:
    The roleplaying is best done in person, but is at least somewhat effective over the phone as well, if distance from your buddy is a factor. Also, I think it would be a good thing to have at our picnics and gatherings, for those who wish to participate. You know, "over there is frisbee, over there is horseshoes, and over there is LEO interaction roleplaying for those who wish to perfect their technique.
    This is a great idea for our gatherings, especially to the newer people to OC (Me included), I bet I would feel alot more confident about my ability to deal with LEOs after a few sessions.

  24. #24
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    Just a thought,

    Use a recording device. Have a friend, relative, etc,record the typical questions made by a LEO during an encounter. Playback the recording to practice the encounters.

  25. #25
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    JeffSayers wrote:
    SNIP The officer came upon my property with his weapon already drawn.

    Whoa!

    I missed evaluating that the first time, through.

    That changes things.

    There is case law about intimidating circumstances and whether an officer has a drawn gun, I'm almost certain.

    Without being able to rememberwhich court opinion(s), I'm convinced you were unlawfully Terry Stopped on your own front porch. I don't care whether 1/2 the cop'sverbal communications were phrased as requests.

    Also, based on my understanding of the courts, the standard issomething close to: "Based on the totality of the circumstances, would a reasonable person feel free to disregard the officer's inquiries and walk away?"

    Who? I repeat. WHO? is going to disregard a police officer with a drawn gun asking questions?


    Edited to add: I saw Dan's earlier post about the officer having a drawn gun being an unreasonable use of force. I'm not sufficiently familiar with the law to be able to say. But, I'm rather certain it makes it a Terry Stop. Since there seems to be no reasonable suspicion of a crime, I'd also say it was an unlawful Terry Stop.

    If you're thinking about taking legal action. It might not be a bad idea to ask a moderator (Mike or JPierce)to delete this thread.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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