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OUTRAGEOUS

JeffSayers

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Thank you for your feedback Ghostrider.

I was hot at the time of my initial writting, and I am very glad I didn't simply email it to the chief as it does need revision.


After getting everyone's feedback, I see now that I need to clean my letter up and be much more concise and factual. Iwill move forward in an informal manor holding further action pending the response.




[align=center]I THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR COMMENTS AND FEEDBACK![/align]
 

Venator

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JeffSayers wrote:
OK, fair warning here Venator... sit down and take some blood pressure medication. You're going to explode. Rather than typing everything out again, I'll just let the group read my letter to my police chief. I have gone from slightly annoyed to extremely outraged, back to annoyed, and now somewhere in between. OK, here it is:

Edit note: I have not sent this letter yet. Am I being too forgiving, am I being a whiner? Either way, I fear the police chief in Eastpointe will after this know me on a personal level for reasons less than ideal. Man, I'm just so pissed again!:cuss:

Dear Chief:



I am writing your this informal letter to express my concerns over an incident which occurred upon my property tonight at approximately 6:00 p.m. While the situation could call for a formal complaint, I am choosing to exercise a balance of understanding and cooperation just as I expect the members of your fine force do in their everyday tasks.



The situation as it played out is as follows:



Shortly after arriving home from work, I went to my front porch to smoke a cigarette as my wife is two months pregnant and I no longer smoke in my home. Being a warmer and rather exhausting day today, my cover shirt was the first thing to go as I started to wind down for the evening leaving my pistol partially exposed inside its holster. An officer on patrol came down my street and noticed my weapon. Many would say, and I would agree that it is a great thing that the officer took notice and looked into it. However, it is from here that a chain of unfortunate events took place.



1.) The officer came upon my property with his weapon already drawn. Now I understand how fast a situation can go bad, but also consider the fact that from the moment the officer put his patrol car into reverse gear, my hands never moved from my sides. Not a huge deal, certainly not worth writing a letter over.

2.) As the officer was walking up to my porch, he asked if I lived upon the premises, to which I answered yes. The events after this point are where I really start to take issue. The officer could have asked me for my address and see if I could provide it without looking at the house numbers. He could have checked the tags on either of my vehicles before he even approached my property to see if I gave the same name the vehicles were registered to. Rather, the officer came upon my property and requested my identification. Now, I do not have a problem identifying myself under almost any circumstance. But the events taken along with the process created more issues that could have been avoided.

3.) Because the officer needed my identification which would not be accessible without him having legitimate risk of me reaching my weapon, he chose to disarm me. I do take issue with this due to the fact that I had not broken any law or caused any grief. Most alarming was the method of the disarmament. I understand that officer can probably handle most any type of handgun safely, but the officer had come up to the edge of my flower bed, reached over it and up over the railing to remove the firearm. I feel it well worth making a note that given a worst case scenario, that moment in time could have been a serious disaster should I have not been an honest law-abiding citizen. The officer’s center of gravity had to have been compromised to some extent; it would have been an easy task for the person in that situation to launch a surprise attack on the officer. In addition, what if the officer lost his balance in the middle of lifting my weapon from its holster? Let’s just say everyone is happy neither situation occurred.

4.) So at this point the officer is assured of his safety and I am requested to go ahead and provide my identification which I did. Now, the next step was the clear cut, absolute no reason for it, outright violation rights. I was then asked to provide my CPL license. There was absolutely no grounds whatsoever for that. It had already been established that I was the legal owner of the property; even without a CPL I would not be in violation of any Michigan law carrying my weapon in any manor.

5.) While my last issue is not a violation rights, it is perhaps the most disheartening. I was advised that even though I was within my rights and the boundaries of law, I was perhaps exercising bad judgment. Well, if making provisions to protect myself and my family are bad judgment, then you can brand me an idiot.



It is my sincerest hope that this communication will be seen as an honest attempt to have a productive correspondence. It is my hope that perhaps some of the issues pointed out will be mentioned in future training sessions.



So that is the bad. However, I would like to also add that the officer, as well as all of the backup units that followed, were cordial and professional in their demeanor. Their investigation, partially unlawful as it may have been, was completed expediently and we parted ways with a wave goodbye. All things being said from my side, I would certainly be happy to hear your viewpoint on the subjects discussed.



In closing, I would like to again thank the entire force for the service they provide and the sacrifices they make.



Regards,







Jeff Sayers
The BP medication wasn't enough. Get off my property comes to mind. Guns draw is the part I am most outraged at. The disarming and asking for the CPL is a close second. I would start with a letter...see how they react and then if you need to make a formal complaint do so. Right know is a learning opportunity for the PD, see how they deal with it. If you complain formally they have ways of retribution you may not like. All that was needed was for the LEO to ask you if you lived there. Ask your name so he could match it to the address and that was it. Or he could have asked your wife to say that you both owned the property and that should have been it. But back-up, disarming, etc.. crap.
 

cmdio

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DanM wrote:
The roleplaying is best done in person, but is at least somewhat effective over the phone as well, if distance from your buddy is a factor. Also, I think it would be a good thing to have at our picnics and gatherings, for those who wish to participate. You know, "over there is frisbee, over there is horseshoes, and over there is LEO interaction roleplaying for those who wish to perfect their technique. :)
This is a great idea for our gatherings, especially to the newer people to OC (Me included), I bet I would feel alot more confident about my ability to deal with LEOs after a few sessions.
 

SpringerXDacp

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Just a thought,

Use a recording device. Have a friend, relative, etc,record the typical questions made by a LEO during an encounter. Playback the recording to practice the encounters.
 

Citizen

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JeffSayers wrote:
SNIP The officer came upon my property with his weapon already drawn.


Whoa!

I missed evaluating that the first time, through.

That changes things.

There is case law about intimidating circumstances and whether an officer has a drawn gun, I'm almost certain.

Without being able to rememberwhich court opinion(s), I'm convinced you were unlawfully Terry Stopped on your own front porch. I don't care whether 1/2 the cop'sverbal communications were phrased as requests.

Also, based on my understanding of the courts, the standard issomething close to: "Based on the totality of the circumstances, would a reasonable person feel free to disregard the officer's inquiries and walk away?"

Who? I repeat. WHO? is going to disregard a police officer with a drawn gun asking questions?


Edited to add: I saw Dan's earlier post about the officer having a drawn gun being an unreasonable use of force. I'm not sufficiently familiar with the law to be able to say. But, I'm rather certain it makes it a Terry Stop. Since there seems to be no reasonable suspicion of a crime, I'd also say it was an unlawful Terry Stop.

If you're thinking about taking legal action. It might not be a bad idea to ask a moderator (Mike or JPierce)to delete this thread.
 

ghostrider

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Venator wrote:
The BP medication wasn't enough. Get off my property comes to mind. Guns draw is the part I am most outraged at. The disarming and asking for the CPL is a close second. I would start with a letter...see how they react and then if you need to make a formal complaint do so. Right know is a learning opportunity for the PD, see how they deal with it. If you complain formally they have ways of retribution you may not like. All that was needed was for the LEO to ask you if you lived there. Ask your name so he could match it to the address and that was it. Or he could have asked your wife to say that you both owned the property and that should have been it. But back-up, disarming, etc.. crap.
Something else to add to what Venator wrote. Remember that danbus not to long ago received a settlement from Norfolk for actions similar to what happened to Jeff. Checking with a lawyer before doing or saying anything else would not be a bad idea.
 

DanM

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SpringerXDacp wrote:
Just a thought,

Use a recording device. Have a friend, relative, etc,record the typical questions made by a LEO during an encounter. Playback the recording to practice the encounters.

Good idea. If you are practicing your interaction technique alone, this would probably help you visualize yourself as the lawfully armed citizen better, sincethe "officer" would be externalized to the playback device.
 

JeffSayers

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Citizen wrote:
Also, based on my understanding of the courts, the standard issomething close to: "Based on the totality of the circumstances, would a reasonable person feel free to disregard the officer's inquiries and walk away?"

Who? I repeat. WHO? is going to disregard a police officer with a drawn gun asking questions?

I certainly was not going to disregard the commands coming from the gun. Pardon my naivety, but I am not sure I understand exactly what a "Terry Stop" is. I'm sure someone could explain it to me?

I can't see this requiring court action. And if it does, so be it. I live my life as an open book and thissituation should be no different.
 

Citizen

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JeffSayers wrote:
Citizen wrote:
Also, based on my understanding of the courts, the standard issomething close to: "Based on the totality of the circumstances, would a reasonable person feel free to disregard the officer's inquiries and walk away?"

Who? I repeat. WHO? is going to disregard a police officer with a drawn gun asking questions?

I certainly was not going to disregard the commands coming from the gun. Pardon my naivety, but I am not sure I understand exactly what a "Terry Stop" is. I'm sure someone could explain it to me?

I can't see this requiring court action. And if it does, so be it. I live my life as an open book and thissituation should be no different.

The term Terry Stop refers to police stopping, frisking, and if present, removing a weapon for the safety of the officer and those nearby.

This is a fundamental 4th Amendment opinion by the US Supreme Court.

You can read it at the link. Might as well get started on the right foot and add both the opinion and the website to your browsers Favorites. You will definitely find yourself referring to Terry over and over again.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0392_0001_ZO.html

For full understanding, read it a couple times or more. And don't forget to read the concurring opinions and dissents.
 

ghostrider

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JeffSayers wrote:
I certainly was not going to disregard the commands coming from the gun. Pardon my naivety, but I am not sure I understand exactly what a "Terry Stop" is. I'm sure someone could explain it to me?

I can't see this requiring court action. And if it does, so be it. I live my life as an open book and thissituation should be no different.
A "Terry Stop" is what it's called when an officer detains you. It's so named from the court decision of Terry v. Ohio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio


There are different levels of interaction/investigation with police.

First is voluntary interview. This is when an officer may stop or ask you questions, but you are free to leave at any time. These are probably most common. These can last as long as either party is willing.

Second is when you are being detained. This is typically called the Terry Stop. For this to take place, the officer needs to be able to articulate reasonable suspicion that a crime either has been committed, is in progress, or is about to be committed (They were holding you under a Terry Stop). During the Terry Stop, the suspect (that's you in this case) is not free to leave, and is under investigation. These may last up to about 20 minutes, but any longer is not view favorably by the courts. The officer should either make an arrest, or release the suspect.

The next step in officer interaction/investigation is arrest. This takes place when the officer has evidence (not suspicion) that you have committed a crime.

In your case, we don't know what the officers RS (or the crime for the detainment for that matter) was. That is only one of the reasons why I strongly suggest that you obtain good legal consul if possible, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to follow another poster's suggestion about having the thread deleted. You may have a possible case. danbus was detained at gunpoint outside a bank, and the city ended up settling out of court for $10K. The more you reveal on the internet, the more damage you could do to your case.
 

JeffSayers

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ghostrider wrote:
In your case, we don't know what the officers RS (or the crime for the detainment for that matter) was. That is only one of the reasons why I strongly suggest that you obtain good legal consul if possible, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to follow another poster's suggestion about having the thread deleted. You may have a possible case. danbus was detained at gunpoint outside a bank, and the city ended up settling out of court for $10K. The more you reveal on the internet, the more damage you could do to your case.

Thank you for the explanation of a Terry stop, pretty straightforward.

I do however hold to my lifelong stance of an open book. Facts are facts and I do not expect this to be a trial issue anyway.
 

Citizen

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ghostrider wrote:
SNIP Second is when you are being detained. This is typically called the Terry Stop. For this to take place, the officer needs to be able to articulate reasonable suspicion that a crime either has been committed, is in progress, or is about to be committed (They were holding you under a Terry Stop). During the Terry Stop, the suspect (that's you in this case) is not free to leave, and is under investigation.
Agree with Ghostrider.

The heart of the matter is that it is involuntary. Though short of an arrest, you are, for the purposes of the 4th Amendment, seized. See Terry vs Ohio.

By involuntary, I don't mean that you have to answer questions. I mean that you are not free to leave. This is another way of saying the officer can use force to make you stay.

I'm not certain, but I wouldn't be surprised if physical resistance didn't result in anobstruction charge. Hitting the officer would likely result in an assault charge, I should think.
 

ghostrider

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JeffSayers wrote:
The tricky thing is where would I have gone if I left? I was already home!

Maybe my situation could be renamed a "Mommy Stop" because I was grounded and couldn't leave the house!
Right, really no place for you to "leave" too. You could have asked them to leave, or "please leave my property".

Of course, you could also invited them in to have tea and crumpets. :D
 

Citizen

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JeffSayers wrote:
The tricky thing is where would I have gone if I left? I was already home!

Maybe my situation could be renamed a "Mommy Stop" because I was grounded and couldn't leave the house!

The part about being free to leave is based on the premise that you would continue about your business, I should think.

The heart of the matter, though, is the compulsory/involuntary aspect.

I shouldn't think it would matter if you were in a restaurant eating at a table. No court is going to say that whetheryou wereseized hinges on the fact that you didn't leaveyour half-finished steak and walk out; thus, since you didn't leave your steak, you voluntarily remained for the encounter.
 

Tucker6900

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For the first time, I disagree with you Brian. Jeff is supposed to rethink making a formal complaint due to the possibility of more harrassment? A formal complaint from a lawyer is due in this situation. I totally agree with ghostrider on this. Contact a lawyer and start the process that way. Dont send the letter to the chief.

Im starting to wonder how many "Learning experiences" were are going to allow these police departments to have before it gets to be too many. I for one think that it has already gone too far. With the departments and officers already not doing their jobs (I.E. Its not our job to teach the officers the law), I think we have already given them enough slack. Its time to stop this game of cat and mouse and move on to get the problem fixed, permanently. Enough of this screwing around.






Venator wrote
Right know is a learning opportunity for the PD, see how they deal with it. If you complain formally they have ways of retribution you may not like.
 

SQLtables

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Tucker6900 wrote:
For the first time, I disagree with you Brian.  Jeff is supposed to rethink making a formal complaint due to the possibility of more harrassment?  A formal complaint from a lawyer is due in this situation.  I totally agree with ghostrider on this.  Contact a lawyer and start the process that way.  Dont send the letter to the chief.

Im starting to wonder how many "Learning experiences" were are going to allow these police departments to have before it gets to be too many.  I for one think that it has already gone too far.  With the departments and officers already not doing their jobs (I.E. Its not our job to teach the officers the law), I think we have already given them enough slack.   Its time to stop this game of cat and mouse and move on to get the problem fixed, permanently.  Enough of this screwing around.






Venator wrote
Right know is a learning opportunity for the PD, see how they deal with it.  If you complain formally they have ways of retribution you may not like.

Ya know, I was on the fence, but after reading your post, I agree. I find it very hard to believe that there is a PD in Michigan that hasn't at least heard of OC... at least from the media. There's no excuse anymore.
 

Tucker6900

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SQLtables wrote:
Tucker6900 wrote:
For the first time, I disagree with you Brian. Jeff is supposed to rethink making a formal complaint due to the possibility of more harrassment? A formal complaint from a lawyer is due in this situation. I totally agree with ghostrider on this. Contact a lawyer and start the process that way. Dont send the letter to the chief.

Im starting to wonder how many "Learning experiences" were are going to allow these police departments to have before it gets to be too many. I for one think that it has already gone too far. With the departments and officers already not doing their jobs (I.E. Its not our job to teach the officers the law), I think we have already given them enough slack. Its time to stop this game of cat and mouse and move on to get the problem fixed, permanently. Enough of this screwing around.






Venator wrote
Right know is a learning opportunity for the PD, see how they deal with it. If you complain formally they have ways of retribution you may not like.

Ya know, I was on the fence, but after reading your post, I agree. I find it very hard to believe that there is a PD in Michigan that hasn't at least heard of OC... at least from the media. There's no excuse anymore.
Exactly!

If you were involved in a major industry, such as Law enforcement, Automotive, Banking; if something was affecting how you will be doing your job, your going to hear about it. Regardless of how far away it happened, what part of the company it happened to, its going to eventually affect how you do your job.

These departments should be audited and investigated for "Up to date" training and studying of the law. We're leaving it up to them to police themselves to do their jobs properly. And we should expect NO LESS.

What happens when we commit a crime or break a rule? We get charged, arrested, prosecuted, and sentenced. We DONT get a written letter telling us that what we did was wrong, and we need to do something to change the way we work. We should pursue their crimes as they pursue ours.
 

Venator

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Tucker6900 wrote:
For the first time, I disagree with you Brian. Jeff is supposed to rethink making a formal complaint due to the possibility of more harrassment? A formal complaint from a lawyer is due in this situation. I totally agree with ghostrider on this. Contact a lawyer and start the process that way. Dont send the letter to the chief.

Im starting to wonder how many "Learning experiences" were are going to allow these police departments to have before it gets to be too many. I for one think that it has already gone too far. With the departments and officers already not doing their jobs (I.E. Its not our job to teach the officers the law), I think we have already given them enough slack. Its time to stop this game of cat and mouse and move on to get the problem fixed, permanently. Enough of this screwing around.






Venator wrote
Right know is a learning opportunity for the PD, see how they deal with it. If you complain formally they have ways of retribution you may not like.
I think each department should get one chance. Unlessit so outrageous as to be pure negligence (an arrest) or an injury (physical or monetary) was caused. After that the gloves should come off.

And for others, my warning in regards to a complaint and retribution is real and should be weighed by each person. If you live in a small community it's likely that you couldl be targeted with "legitimate" harassment, i.e., tickets, seat-belts, etc.. that person has to determine if it's worth it. If someone has a confrontation with a PD that's out of town, that risk of harassment is less. Each person should be aware of this before they decide on a course of action. That's all I was trying to relate. Each person can take more or less than the next.
 

ghostrider

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Venator wrote:
Tucker6900 wrote:
For the first time, I disagree with you Brian. Jeff is supposed to rethink making a formal complaint due to the possibility of more harrassment? A formal complaint from a lawyer is due in this situation. I totally agree with ghostrider on this. Contact a lawyer and start the process that way. Dont send the letter to the chief.

Im starting to wonder how many "Learning experiences" were are going to allow these police departments to have before it gets to be too many. I for one think that it has already gone too far. With the departments and officers already not doing their jobs (I.E. Its not our job to teach the officers the law), I think we have already given them enough slack. Its time to stop this game of cat and mouse and move on to get the problem fixed, permanently. Enough of this screwing around.






Venator wrote
Right know is a learning opportunity for the PD, see how they deal with it. If you complain formally they have ways of retribution you may not like.
I think each department should get one chance. Unlessit so outrageous as to be pure negligence (an arrest) or an injury (physical or monetary) was caused. After that the gloves should come off.

And for others, my warning in regards to a complaint and retribution is real and should be weighed by each person. If you live in a small community it's likely that you couldl be targeted with "legitimate" harassment, i.e., tickets, seat-belts, etc.. that person has to determine if it's worth it. If someone has a confrontation with a PD that's out of town, that risk of harassment is less. Each person should be aware of this before they decide on a course of action. That's all I was trying to relate. Each person can take more or less than the next.
I have to agree with Brian on this. I don't think he is saying to not do anything, but to just be aware of the potential problems it may facilitate. In Jeff's case, it's a very legitimate concern to bring up since Jeff has indicated that the reason he gave the officer his ID was because he doesn't want to make any waves with the PD in his community. This is a very real concern that people should take into account when they decide to OC. That isn't to say that one should not take legal action, or file a complaint, just that they should be aware of what can happen if they chose that path.
 
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