FNH Five Seven

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I know I'll get some laughs from this but has anyone given thought to carrying this pistol as primary? For those not familiar with it, it fires a 5.7 x 28mm round. These rounds are normally fired via machine gun and this is the only pistol made to fire these rounds.

I own one and I'm impressed at how light the pistol is with a full magazine of 20 rounds. It comes with three magazines so you have 61 rounds available without purchasing more magazines or the +10 round extenders.

There are rounds that can penetrate 58 layers of Kevlar but there are some rounds only available to the miltary and LE. The rounds don't expand but are designed to tumble, providing significant damage without over-penetration. I've yet to take mine to the range but a friend shared his experience and said he shot a thick piece of steel and it punched a perfect hole in it, then shot a watermelon (with the sametype round)and it literally exploded. Yes, I know that a human body isn't equivalent with a watermelon, but still...

Does anyone know of tests in ballistic gellatin with the available rounds? There is a lot to be said for having 21 in the pipe in such a light pistol.

open4years

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I carry this as my primary. Its not a "proven" round and definitely goes against the fat and heavy round mentality, but there have been a few instances that I've read about the round working as planned. Here's my thinking: when a bullet exits a body through over penetration, it is taking along with it unused kinetic energy. If a bullet stops in the body, then all the energy has been transfered to the individual.

Its easy to shoot and get (a) precision followup shot(s) because of its low recoil. Plus it looks nice!

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5.7x28mm Gelatin Tests

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Thanks to both of you. I received my copy of Concealed Carry magazine today and there was a review of the Five Seven. The author apparantly thought that the rounds available to the public were capable of penetrated ballistic vests. He carried out a test using a level 3 vest and, of course, it didn't penetrate. It wasn't designed too as those rounds are only available to the miliary and LE.

I've read that SWAT teams are using this pistol as it seems the bad guys are beggining to wear body armour. They also conducted a study comparing penetration through interior walls. They compared the 5.7x28mm to .45 and the .45 penetrated through more walls than the Five Seven did.

So, we have a tumbling round that penetrates deep enough into a body but doesn't exit. Sounds good to me.

This is off subject but this issue of Concealed Carry had an article about Open Carry which was favorable. The article mentioned this forum.

open4years

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I have carried my 5.7 for a year now. I use a cross breed IWB very comfortable.
When I open carry it I use a level 2 Sherpa it gets some looks. I like the big grip for my large hands and the low recoil. It is a deadly gun. It is the only pistol with riffle ballistics. The 190 ammo from FNH is in a red box for military leo only. There is a blue plastic tip round that frags easy thus crating a large would channel. Good to hunt wild pigs. At close to 3,000 fps it hits hard and then yaws. Like 223 ammo out of an M16
Most self defense gun fight happens at 30 feet or so. The 5.7 pistol goes a tad bit further
(quigley down under)

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Wow, did everyone look at the ballistic tests? It seemed to made much more of a devastating "wound" than a .45 JHP. Did I read the results correct? I'm now convinced, thanks for the input guys and for the great gel tests link.

open4years

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Is the ammo capable of defeating soft armor restricted as AP? Or just the ones with steel penetrators designed to defeat modern infantry armor? I heard that there was civilian legal ammo that could go through soft armor (like most rifle rounds, simply b/c of its high speed), but most manufactures only sold it directly to LEO/Military.

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The recent issue of Concealed Carry Magazine puts that rumour to the test. My understanding has always been that the ammunition that can penetrate body armour is limited to LE and Military. The experiment, in this magazine, test all ammunition availabe to the public and none of them will penetrate a ballistic vest.

I do not wish to shoot LE but it bothers me that SWAT teams are using the Five Seven, with the ballistic penetrating round, as its becoming more common for bad guys to wear ballistic vests. I would like to be able to protect myself against a bad guy wearing a vest, but I understand that if the ammunition is released to the public, it will get in the wrong hands.

So, I guess I'll have to go for a head shot after he is still shooting at me after a taking a few hits....assuming I'm still alive.

open4years

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Indeed. Work on that Mozambique Drill. Here's a good clip on how it can be used. Its a movie clip with Tom Cruise, so take it with a grain of salt, and also, some adult language used, but the 2nd guy he "defends" himself from gets the 1-2 in the center and a 3rd fairly well aimed shot in the head. Ignore the last shot, though, because thats not defensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmKR6evZRQQ

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My understanding has always been that the ammunition that can penetrate body armour is limited to LE and Military.

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Not by law, AP ammo is designated by law by certain materials in its construction that are used in AP bullets (usually a steel core), the actual legal defintion has nothing to do with the round's actual ability to penetrate armor.

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open4years wrote:

I would like to be able to protect myself against a bad guy wearing a vest, but I understand that if the ammunition is released to the public, it will get in the wrong hands.

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Yep, because bad guys can't get full-auto either. Bans sure do work! Hell for that matter, thank God bad guys aren't allowed to have guns period!

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nova wrote:

open4years wrote:

I would like to be able to protect myself against a bad guy wearing a vest, but I understand that if the ammunition is released to the public, it will get in the wrong hands.

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Yep, because bad guys can't get full-auto either. Bans sure do work! Hell for that matter, thank God bad guys aren't allowed to have guns period!

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You are absolutely correct. There is a point to be made that if the police feel the need to protect themselves with ballistic vest penetrating rounds, that maybe we should to. Aren't we then being denied the same level of self-defense as LEO's have?

Criminals will always find a way to get what they want while the good guys (us) abide by the laws. Heck, even if I go through with getting a ballistic vest, the bad guy may have some of those "illegal" bullets.

Now I am paranoid.

open4years

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My first introduction to the FN was by a friend of mine a while back (about a year ago?) who had just gotten one (plus the extended clip). We were out on a ranch just killing a day when he handed it to me saying 'here is the latest and greatest bla bla...' "Run the Clip". (Let me qualify slightly by saying that I have known this individual for years, he is responsible for much of my shooting and firearms experience and I trust him completely) so I took the gun, picked a target and started firing. I 'count' my rounds as I go and am used to no more than 11 rds (1911 with extended mag). Since I was under instruction to "run the clip" I continued firing, losing count, and wondering if the thing was ever going to run out of bullets!!! 30 rds is a BUNCH!!!
At the time I really didn't think much about the gun. It was a 'neat toy' if you will, but didn't go on my 'list'. Recently, since the 'need (want) a new gun' bug hit me, I have determined to look at all options. This one came back to light. My biggest issue with this gun now is that there seems to be only ONE gun chambered for this round!? And it is not a small gun! If OC was legal here (Texas) then I might consider it, but in the OC scenario, I still think I would prefer a nice 1911! However, I do feel that if this round had a smaller gun to go through that it would quickly become a popular choice, I would at least give it some serious consideration! And the argument of 'fewer rounds' due to a 'smaller' gun I think would be moot with this one as well... I see absolutely no reason to feel that I need to carry 40-90 rounds (standard clip 20 rds, +1 backup = 40rds; extended clip 30 rds + option to carry 2 bkps = 90 rds)

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FN makes an expensive line of carbines that take the same round as well. I carry an FNP-9 as a primary carry piece. Nice stuff. They had the good sense to back John Browning back in the day, so they must know something.

-ljp

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i love my PS90, it is a fun gun to shoot

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Legba wrote:

FN makes an expensive line of carbines that take the same round as well. I carry an FNP-9 as a primary carry piece. Nice stuff. They had the good sense to back John Browning back in the day, so they must know something.

-ljp

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Whether or not people like the caliber (5.7) FN does make some fine guns. I've wanted an FNP-40 for a long time but never got around to it.

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You can get 5.7mm ammo that penetrates soft armor. 'Armor Piercing' ammo is ammo made with specific materials, not just fmj.

I like the 5.7 but I prefer Glocks/Sigs. If the Hughes Ammendment is ever done away with I'm definitely picking up a P90 though!

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Gator5713 wrote:

My first introduction to the FN was by a friend of mine a while back (about a year ago?) who had just gotten one (plus the extended clip). We were out on a ranch just killing a day when he handed it to me saying 'here is the latest and greatest bla bla...' "Run the Clip". (Let me qualify slightly by saying that I have known this individual for years, he is responsible for much of my shooting and firearms experience and I trust him completely) so I took the gun, picked a target and started firing. I 'count' my rounds as I go and am used to no more than 11 rds (1911 with extended mag). Since I was under instruction to "run the clip" I continued firing, losing count, and wondering if the thing was ever going to run out of bullets!!! 30 rds is a BUNCH!!!
At the time I really didn't think much about the gun. It was a 'neat toy' if you will, but didn't go on my 'list'. Recently, since the 'need (want) a new gun' bug hit me, I have determined to look at all options. This one came back to light. My biggest issue with this gun now is that there seems to be only ONE gun chambered for this round!? And it is not a small gun! If OC was legal here (Texas) then I might consider it, but in the OC scenario, I still think I would prefer a nice 1911! However, I do feel that if this round had a smaller gun to go through that it would quickly become a popular choice, I would at least give it some serious consideration! And the argument of 'fewer rounds' due to a 'smaller' gun I think would be moot with this one as well... I see absolutely no reason to feel that I need to carry 40-90 rounds (standard clip 20 rds, +1 backup = 40rds; extended clip 30 rds + option to carry 2 bkps = 90 rds)

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I believe that FNH will introduce a smaller version of the Five Seven. How much this reduces the velocity and the effectiveness of the round will be discovered then. But it would probably still appeal to me.

open4years

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They recently came out with a .45 with 14 rounds in the magazine, plus two more magazines come with it as is there standard. I own a Para-Ordinance (spelling?) P14-45 that also has 14 rounds in the magazine. I carried it openly for several years but it was HEAVY!

I'm pretty convinced that the Five-Seven will be my primary from now on, but I would like to at least hold their .45. If you look at the catalog, you will notice that the desert tan color makes the gun weigh a bit less than the other colors! This is true in the Five-Seven.

I have a black Five-Seven as it was all they made when I bought it. Now they make it in different colors, including tan, with night sights but the night sights have to be ordered with the gun, you can not buy night sights from them. I e-mailed and asked if I could send my gun back for night sights to be added, but no reply.

I can't justify buying a new Five-Seven unless the gun shop will take this one back as I haven't fired it yet. (I know, I'm commiting a major violation by carrying a gun that I haven't fired yet. But I have a back-up that I have fired.)

open4years

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AnaxImperator wrote:

5.7x28mm Gelatin Tests

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There's a great deal of reliance on temporary wound channels to get the job done, if you judge it by those tests.

Even more importantly...

If you have to shoot to defend your life, what's easier to explain in court: the run of the mill .45 ACP firing 3 rounds, killing the bad guy or the "cop-killer FiveseveN using military style armor piercing ammunition" where you fired 22 rounds into the guy?

Just look at how many gun enthusiasts were mistaken in this thread alone about 5.7 ammunition. Heck, the CC magazine was even testing the rumor. What do you think an ignorant "jury of your peers" is going to think about the 5.7?

Legal liability aside, you risk your life carrying something like a FiveseveN as your primary defense weapon. Just look at the gelatin tests on that website:

If you examine the permanent wound channel, you have essentially a 0.376" diameter 9.6" deep channel. This is indeed adequate penetration, but the diameter of the permanent wound channel leaves a great deal to be desired. Even with the best gelatin results indicating a 0.376" dia. x 9.6" deep wound channel, that's only11.34 square inches of surface area he's bleeding from and that's in a best case scenario too.


The same site lists some tests done with the .45 ACP. Even using the least desirable gelatin results from that site, you get 0.659" dia. and 10.9" penetration. (from a Glock 30 with a 3.8" barrel fired into bare gelatin). That results in 22.56 square inches of surface area he's bleeding from. Again, this is worst-case scenarither ammunition tested showed much better penetration andexpansion. (16" penetration at 0.75" diameter, for example).

I'd feel much safer carrying a .45 ACP that will double the surface area of the wound channel (and more than double the volume). Granted, without proper shot placement you're still relying on the bad guy to bleed out, but that happens quite a bit faster when he's got a bigger hole to bleed from.

The goal of defensive shooting is to positively end the threat to your life. Waiting for the bad guy to bleed to death out of a 0.376" diameter hole isn't exactly good for your health. You can not safely rely on tumbling to accomplish the wound channel damage you need. Only two of the four shotsfrom the FiveseveN indicated tumbling occurred.Tumbling is a random event that you can't depend on when your life is at risk. Who cares if you can carry 25+ rounds of ammunition. If you have to use all of it to stop someone, "self-defense" might behard to justify.