FNH Five Seven

open4years · Nov 14, 2008

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shad0wfax wrote:

AnaxImperator wrote:

5.7x28mm Gelatin Tests

Click to expand...

There's a great deal of reliance on temporary wound channels to get the job done, if you judge it by those tests.

Even more importantly...

If you have to shoot to defend your life, what's easier to explain in court: the run of the mill .45 ACP firing 3 rounds, killing the bad guy or the "cop-killer FiveseveN using military style armor piercing ammunition" where you fired 22 rounds into the guy?

Just look at how many gun enthusiasts were mistaken in this thread alone about 5.7 ammunition. Heck, the CC magazine was even testing the rumor. What do you think an ignorant "jury of your peers" is going to think about the 5.7?

Legal liability aside, you risk your life carrying something like a FiveseveN as your primary defense weapon. Just look at the gelatin tests on that website:

If you examine the permanent wound channel, you have essentially a 0.376" diameter 9.6" deep channel. This is indeed adequate penetration, but the diameter of the permanent wound channel leaves a great deal to be desired. Even with the best gelatin results indicating a 0.376" dia. x 9.6" deep wound channel, that's only11.34 square inches of surface area he's bleeding from and that's in a best case scenario too.

The same site lists some tests done with the .45 ACP. Even using the least desirable gelatin results from that site, you get 0.659" dia. and 10.9" penetration. (from a Glock 30 with a 3.8" barrel fired into bare gelatin). That results in 22.56 square inches of surface area he's bleeding from. Again, this is worst-case scenarither ammunition tested showed much better penetration andexpansion. (16" penetration at 0.75" diameter, for example).

I'd feel much safer carrying a .45 ACP that will double the surface area of the wound channel (and more than double the volume). Granted, without proper shot placement you're still relying on the bad guy to bleed out, but that happens quite a bit faster when he's got a bigger hole to bleed from.

The goal of defensive shooting is to positively end the threat to your life. Waiting for the bad guy to bleed to death out of a 0.376" diameter hole isn't exactly good for your health. You can not safely rely on tumbling to accomplish the wound channel damage you need. Only two of the four shotsfrom the FiveseveN indicated tumbling occurred.Tumbling is a random event that you can't depend on when your life is at risk. Who cares if you can carry 25+ rounds of ammunition. If you have to use all of it to stop someone, "self-defense" might behard to justify.

Strange. I looked at the same photos and the Five Seven caused more wound channels than the .45. I agree with the court room aspect. I bought the gun because I feel that it will be banned soon, so that is a good point.

As for how many rounds it would take with a .45 versus the Five Seven, is there real world data on the Five Seven? I know the round is considered effective, by the military, when fired from long guns and I've read positive reports, from the military, about the Five Seven. Does the round lose so much FPS to become ineffective when fired from this pistol? I doubt it.

I've always been a believer in the .45 or 10mm, but this gun and round, has merit for me and it ultimately comes down to a personal choice for the gun one chooses to carry.

If I'm asked in court why I chose this gun, I will say that number 1, it is lightweight and easy for my old bones to carry and number 2, I read that it was an effective defensive round. I will be carrying rounds available for the public.

open4years

shad0wfax · Nov 21, 2008

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open4years wrote:

[snip]

As for how many rounds it would take with a .45 versus the Five Seven, is there real world data on the Five Seven? I know the round is considered effective, by the military, when fired from long guns and I've read positive reports, from the military, about the Five Seven. Does the round lose so much FPS to become ineffective when fired from this pistol? I doubt it.

[snip]
open4years

I haven't seen any information on the terminal performance of civilian 5.7 ammunition on human equivalent targets. It's still a relatively new cartridge, in terms of morgue reports.

The military loves it because it is great for penetrating body armor at close to medium range from short-barrelled SMGs like the P90. I'm sure it would perform great from the Five seveN pistol too.Thecartridgewas purpose-built for use in SMG's by soldiers facing armored targets.

I hope I didn't sound overly harsh on your choice to purchase or carry the Five seveN. FN makes great products and I can definitely understand wanting to purchase a Five seveN. Personally, I would be hesitant to carry a 5.7 as my defense weapon. I'd carry a .357 Magnum or a .45 ACP as my primary carry weapon, because both are proven performers against human threats and there is no question of their ability to end a threat.

You mentioned that you thought the 5.7 caused more damage than the .45 in the gelatin tests. The gelatin in the link below (from the original url linked earlier) has a redoutline around the temporary wound channel. The permanent wound channel is the diagonal line streaking from lower-left towards upper-right. The bullet yaws, creating a larger temporary channel a few inches in, and then it rights itself and continues on in a straight line to the right.The red linethey highlighted that photo with is only a temporary wound channel.http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/5.7x28mm%20SS195%20denim%20block.JPG

bcbrown2 · Nov 21, 2008

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Had the chance to actually shoot one of these a few months back. Definitely interesting and the owner let me put a full 20+ rounds through it. It was weird, fun, and really cool to put an assault rifle cartridge through a pistol so light you're left wondering where the metal is.

In real-world defensive shooting, it's more of a solution looking for a problem. Specifically designed to defeat body armor in civilian tactical and military applications, the chances of having to solve for a mugger in body armor at 50 yards is questionable, at best. So is getting that sweet AP ammunition it was initially designed for. It's one hell of a fun pistol to shoot and it's not likely you're going to get too many chances to handle one very often.

Personally, I'd prefer to trust my more compact 9mm and .45 pistols to stop someone with evil intentions. However, FNH stands behind it as an effective defensive pistol. The Internet was custom-built for bickering, but I've heard good arguments on both sides. Again, it's a solution looking for a very specific problem. Instead of using a heavy pistol round in a submachine gun they went the other direction -- pack a light sub-gun round into a pistol. It may work well for military / SWAT engagements but I'll take my Kimber or my Glock over the FN if the fit ever hits the shan.

Great article on it here:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/fnusg_021207/index.html

Wheelgunner · Nov 21, 2008

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Speaking to the 5.7mm round, I have never been impressed with the round. A micro rifle round in a pistol (?), when our guys in Iraq are already pissed about the .223 and it's lack of stopping power.

So I began to research the thing. I quote from the Box O' Truth website:

"Also useful is that while doing the Buick of Truth shoot I was talking to some members of a very large and very well respected SWAT team who has had more operational use of the weapons than any other group in the United States, and they were absolutely sour on the weapon.

One of them told me about a particular incident where two SWAT officers, one armed with a shotgun and the other armed with a P90, engaged a bad guy. The P90 armed officer was the first to engage the bad guy....which caused the bad guy to start hollering "Stop shooting me with that thing!!" after sustaining multiple hits with the weapon.

The officer with the 12 gauge used his weapon and the bad guy was dropped instantly and apparently no longer had the ability to complain about what he was being shot with.

Another member of that same team recently posted on another forum that his team was in a firefight where the P90 was used again. The officer armed with the P90 fired on a bad guy...but the round was stopped by the bad guy's rib.

Scientific gel testing has shown the 5.7 to offer pretty poor ballistic performance when compared to the 5.56 or even to more common handgun/subgun rounds like the 9mm and the .45 ACP.

The benefit of the 5.7 round is that it reputedly penetrates body armor...but only with rounds available to LE/military that ordinary civilians cannot get. Even then, there are AP rounds for more common handgun/subgun calibers (9mm, .45 ACP) that will also penetrate body armor and give superior terminal ballistic performance.

When you combine the results of scientific testing with the observed results of real life firefights the worries about it being a weak penetrator and a bad choice for stopping the hostile actions of a bad guy seem to be solidly founded. "

The round, though new, just does not seem to be passing the smell test. If it were, you would have guys crowing about how the round just puts 'em down. Instead, you have this impression that they are really cool in full auto (P90) but the round they fire sucks.

Felid`Maximus · Nov 21, 2008

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The 5.7 I would think would be much more desirable if civilians could own the good ammo since sometimes thugs wear armor. The 20 round capacity is nice though.

mkl · Nov 21, 2008

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Felid`Maximus wrote:

The 5.7 I would think would be much more desirable if civilians could own the good ammo since sometimes thugs wear armor. The 20 round capacity is nice though.

The "good" ammo isn't banned, it is restricted by FN to LEO. There is at least one group selling reloads that have the same specs as 190 I believe. I haven't checked it out that much, since I am happy with 197. Might be worth a look if you are interested in higher speed/lower mass.

http://www.eliteammunition.com/catView.php

shad0wfax · Nov 22, 2008

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mkl wrote:

The "good" ammo isn't banned, it is restricted by FN to LEO. There is at least one group selling reloads that have the same specs as 190 I believe. I haven't checked it out that much, since I am happy with 197. Might be worth a look if you are interested in higher speed/lower mass.

http://www.eliteammunition.com/catView.php

Wow, I'm surprised they're getting away with selling their own steel-tipped version of what FN sells. http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htmI guess as long as the jacket weight is less than 25% of the total projectile weight it's legal.

It sounds like most of the companies restricting the sales of AP ammunition do so more for liability reasons than legal reasons.

david.ross · Nov 24, 2008

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I'm a little astonished at some of the replies to this thread. A gun shooting 5.7 should do just fine for self defense. Hell, .22 pistols do just fine for self defense as well. What the replies seem to me are rather 1) bigger gun is better or 2) jealous they can't afford a pistol which costs 1000USD. So which is it?

I'm simply trying to say, stop being so hard headed or stop being a stuck up.

I'm sure the 5.7 does just fine for self defense, as even SIG mosquito .22(Jokela) and P22 Walther(Virginia Tech) does just fine for offensive shooting.

I'm simply trying to say, instead of trying to make excuses why you can't have a five-seven pistol and fulling this forum with FUD, be productive instead.

open4years · Nov 25, 2008

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shad0wfax wrote:

open4years wrote:

[snip]

As for how many rounds it would take with a .45 versus the Five Seven, is there real world data on the Five Seven? I know the round is considered effective, by the military, when fired from long guns and I've read positive reports, from the military, about the Five Seven. Does the round lose so much FPS to become ineffective when fired from this pistol? I doubt it.

[snip]
open4years

Click to expand...

I hope I didn't sound overly harsh on your choice to purchase or carry the Five seveN. FN makes great products and I can definitely understand wanting to purchase a Five seveN. Personally, I would be hesitant to carry a 5.7 as my defense weapon. I'd carry a .357 Magnum or a .45 ACP as my primary carry weapon, because both are proven performers against human threats and there is no question of their ability to end a threat.

You mentioned that you thought the 5.7 caused more damage than the .45 in the gelatin tests. The gelatin in the link below (from the original url linked earlier) has a redoutline around the temporary wound channel. The permanent wound channel is the diagonal line streaking from lower-left towards upper-right. The bullet yaws, creating a larger temporary channel a few inches in, and then it rights itself and continues on in a straight line to the right.The red linethey highlighted that photo with is only a temporary wound channel.http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/5.7x28mm%20SS195%20denim%20block.JPG

I wasn't offended by your remarks as I wanted feedback on this relatively new pistol and its round. I'll have to take a closer look at the gelatin tests as I must have not looked close enough.

I'm reconsidering using the Five-Seven as my primary carry firearm. It certainly sounded good, but Idon't want to bet my life on a firearm that can't deliver. I have a problem with wanting the bestpistol round (10mm) ANDalarge number of rounds in the magazine! My bottom end is .40, but I prefer .45 or 10mm.

Thanks for the input.

open4years

i-live-2-ride · Dec 1, 2008

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I don't know if this helps or not, but at two differentindoor ranges they've told me that I can shoot the blue tip 196 rounds, but not the red tip 197 rounds.

Love the gun. Low recoil, pretty accurate, andplenty of rounds without having to reload.:celebrate

madcapmag · Dec 3, 2008

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i-live-2-ride wrote:

I don't know if this helps or not, but at two differentindoor ranges they've told me that I can shoot the blue tip 196 rounds, but not the red tip 197 rounds.

Love the gun. Low recoil, pretty accurate, andplenty of rounds without having to reload.:celebrate

I love that feature too! The large magazines, I mean, not for what you might think, though. It keeps me from having to think about how much rounds are costing me every time i reload a mag.

FNH Five Seven

open4years

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shad0wfax

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bcbrown2

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Wheelgunner

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Felid`Maximus

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mkl

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shad0wfax

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david.ross

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open4years

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i-live-2-ride

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madcapmag

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