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Thread: Asked to leave Greenbrier Mall for OC

  1. #1
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    I hadn't been bothered for open carry for quite a while, so I guess I was due.

    For those that don't know me, I'm a pretty clean cut guy, to the point of frequently being mistaken for law enforcement or military, even when not armed. At the time, I was wearing a pair of a jeans and a VT t-shirt.

    I entered the mall through Sears, did a little tool browsing, and then decided to check out a couple of other shops before loading up with toys to go with my air compressor. As I was leaving Sears, a security guard happened to be coming down the escalator to my right. Shortly after that, I hear from behind me.

    "Sir, excuse me sir. Are you on the job?"

    The puzzled look on my face and "uh, on the job?" response made it pretty clear to him that I'm not a cop, at which point he informed me that the mall had a "no guns" policy and that I'd have to leave. Before actually leaving, I took a minute to talk to the guard and the woman at the information desk to find out who I need to contact to complain about the policy. I did enjoy hearing the woman there stating that she and her husband both have CHPs, and that her preference would be to have a number of people like me in the mall, in case something were to happen.

    I'm still putting together my email to the head of mall security, and I'll post their response once I get it.

    This has made me feel a little more motivated to get a voice recorder, though not for the typical reason. Despite my best efforts to make it obvious that I wasn't arguing about the legality of the mall policy, and that I just wanted to know who to complain to about their policy, it seemed like they weren't perceiving my comments the way I intended. I definitely need to record things like this so I can listen back later to see if I sound more confrontational than I realize.



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    No real reason to capture this conversation unless the mall does NOT have such a policy.

    I think we can all bet that since many malls do... this one does too.

    You can let them know that the gang bangers are going to enter the mall with concealed guns. They are not going to follow that policy andthe mall will never know about it.

    So what is the point in the policy?

    I can assure you that it is not because they are robbed or have so many accidental discharges.

    They have customers the do not like guns and feel safe knowing that guns are prohibited and are "magically" removed from everyone that walks in the mall.

    Those customers spend money and that is what is all comes down to.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    I have never had a problem in Sears.Sears does not have a policy posted. The mall cops are very uptight. They got upset with me last year for open carrying around Santa Claus. They got mad when I told them Santa was going to bring them coal for Christmas if they did not behave.


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    No real reason to capture this conversation unless the mall does NOT have such a policy.

    I've held my tongue many times before when confronted with your obvious bias and pot-stirring, but this takes the cake.

    Do you even read what people are posting or do you just skim the words until you can lock onto a key word or phrase that you can twist into something that it isn't?

    This has made me feel a little more motivated to get a voice recorder, though not for the typical reason. Despite my best efforts to make it obvious that I wasn't arguing about the legality of the mall policy, and that I just wanted to know who to complain to about their policy, it seemed like they weren't perceiving my comments the way I intended. I definitely need to record things like this so I can listen back later to see if I sound more confrontational than I realize.
    The intention here is self-critique of ones interpersonal relation skills....apparently in an effort to IMPROVE THE IMAGE ONE PRESENTS TO THE PUBLIC WHEN CONFRONTED. Seems commendable to me.

    How is this NOT a 'real reason'?

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    I have recommended for some time that when carrying on private property, except restaurants that serve alcohol, to conceal carry if you have a CHP.

    Public property is different.

    Private property can ban guns at will and the worst track records with 'no guns' bans are at large malls and movie theaters.

    What we don't want is to goad malls and movie theaters into posting, which would affect everyone - even those who concealed carry. Better to let them have their private, unwritten policies and to once in a while ask an open carrier to leave, than to post.


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    Thundar wrote:
    I have never had a problem in Sears.Sears does not have a policy posted. The mall cops are very uptight. They got upset with me last year for open carrying around Santa Claus. They got mad when I told them Santa was going to bring them coal for Christmas if they did not behave.

    :P:celebrate:quirky

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    No real reason to capture this conversation unless the mall does NOT have such a policy.
    I've held my tongue many times before when confronted with your obvious bias and pot-stirring, but this takes the cake.

    Do you even read what people are posting or do you just skim the words until you can lock onto a key word or phrase that you can twist into something that it isn't?

    This has made me feel a little more motivated to get a voice recorder, though not for the typical reason. Despite my best efforts to make it obvious that I wasn't arguing about the legality of the mall policy, and that I just wanted to know who to complain to about their policy, it seemed like they weren't perceiving my comments the way I intended. I definitely need to record things like this so I can listen back later to see if I sound more confrontational than I realize.
    The intention here is self-critique of ones interpersonal relation skills....apparently in an effort to IMPROVE THE IMAGE ONE PRESENTS TO THE PUBLIC WHEN CONFRONTED. Seems commendable to me.

    How is this NOT a 'real reason'?
    I got some pie to go along with that cake!!! Eat up!!!

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    VCDL President wrote:
    I have recommended for some time that when carrying on private property, except restaurants that serve alcohol, to conceal carry if you have a CHP.

    Public property is different.

    Private property can ban guns at will and the worst track records with 'no guns' bans are at large malls and movie theaters.

    What we don't want is to goad malls and movie theaters into posting, which would affect everyone - even those who concealed carry. Better to let them have their private, unwritten policies and to once in a while ask an open carrier to leave, than to post.
    1) A right exercised is a right lost. That is the motto on this forum.

    2) The premise that OCing will ruin it fo CCres on private property is a false flag. What legal difference does a sign make to the CCer?A no firearmssign is a private conduct rule, just like a no chewing gum sign and has no legal effect.

    3) There is a practical side to what you say, as it is the path of least resistance. The path of the OC activist, however, is often harder.The mirror, however,is easier for theOC activist to stare into when shaving in the morning.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    What I have long recommended is (since they are apparently posted no carry sign/policy already) is to write the managers of your favorite stores as well as their district managers and inform them that due to mall policy, you will no longer be spending your money there. That, in this down economy, they must be doing pretty well to turn people away from spending money! Be sure to include the mall management on EVERY letter you send out.

    Money talks.

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    Thundar wrote:
    VCDL President wrote:
    I have recommended for some time that when carrying on private property, except restaurants that serve alcohol, to conceal carry if you have a CHP.

    Public property is different.

    Private property can ban guns at will and the worst track records with 'no guns' bans are at large malls and movie theaters.

    What we don't want is to goad malls and movie theaters into posting, which would affect everyone - even those who concealed carry. Better to let them have their private, unwritten policies and to once in a while ask an open carrier to leave, than to post.
    1) A right exercised is a right lost. That is the motto on this forum.

    2) The premise that OCing will ruin it fo CCres on private property is a false flag. What legal difference does a sign make to the CCer?A no firearmssign is a private conduct rule, just like a no chewing gum sign and has no legal effect.

    3) There is a practical side to what you say, as it is the path of least resistance. The path of the OC activist, however, is often harder.The mirror, however,is easier for theOC activist to stare into when shaving in the morning.
    Its a right UNexercised.

    But I see his point....to an extent at least. It's not good for the image of guns if every store you go into has a no guns allowed decal. If you are a kid and everytime you walk into a store you see the equivelence of the poison label on every store...you may grow up thinking guns are bad and should be banned.

    However, at the same time, maybe we should only CC in public as well. The more we OC the more agressive the anti's may become and the more likely that government may see more and more of a need to appease those who are 'offended'.

    It's a tight rope to walk. But I tend to see more employees excited about me carrying, interested, asking questions, surprised, etc....those are positive interactions with people who would normally have no clue.

    I would be more apt to agree with a middle ground. Continue OCing where it isn't posted that you can not but cool off on the emails and phone calls complaining. Its like calling me complaining because I won't let you wear shoes in my house. I'm still not going to let you wear them. I just might remember next time to warn you before you come in because we talked about it on the phone.

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    Thundar wrote:
    VCDL President wrote:
    I have recommended for some time that when carrying on private property, except restaurants that serve alcohol, to conceal carry if you have a CHP.

    Public property is different.

    Private property can ban guns at will and the worst track records with 'no guns' bans are at large malls and movie theaters.

    What we don't want is to goad malls and movie theaters into posting, which would affect everyone - even those who concealed carry. Better to let them have their private, unwritten policies and to once in a while ask an open carrier to leave, than to post.
    1) A right exercised is a right lost. That is the motto on this forum.

    2) The premise that OCing will ruin it fo CCres on private property is a false flag. What legal difference does a sign make to the CCer?A no firearmssign is a private conduct rule, just like a no chewing gum sign and has no legal effect.

    3) There is a practical side to what you say, as it is the path of least resistance. The path of the OC activist, however, is often harder.The mirror, however,is easier for theOC activist to stare into when shaving in the morning.
    Let's be clear - on PRIVATE property you don't have a lot of your rights. If someone stepped into your home with a shirt with profanity written on it and you had a ten-year old around, you might decide that person's free speech rights don't exist. Someone who doesn't like you or your guns can ask you to leave their private property with impunity.

    Saying that carrying on PRIVATE property is exercising a right, is simply wrong. You don't have a right to bear arms on private property.

    Remember - I don't make the laws, I'm just the messenger.

    You CAN exercise that right, which you do have, in a public building, on a public sidewalk, or on your own property or on the property of someone who doesn't care or is sympathetic to the right. Just remember that on private property, the owner can decide what rights you have and can exercise and which you don't and can't.

    Also, I wish it were a false flag about signs going up. The problem is with some gun owners, who when asked to leave private property based on a policy, written or not, DEMAND that a sign go up with the stated policy. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

    If you want to open carry at a mall or theater, go right ahead. If you get kicked out, you most certainly can boycott the stores if you wish. That is one piece of leverage you have to make them reconsider. But your ability to exercise the right to carry ends at the beginning of their property.

    I don't consider a store that bans only a certain type of carry (either no open carry or no concealed carry) to be anti-gun as long as they allow one or the other. The problem, and associated campaign to correct the problem, comes when all carry is disallowed. Some malls don't post a policy because they don't carry about CC, but don't want OC. Oh, well.

    If the mall has nothing posted, but do have a 'no guns' policy and you are carrying concealed, you don't know about their rule and they don't know about your gun. No harm, no foul, no trespass.

    If the law were to be changed where public accommodations (hotels, malls, stores) had to allow all forms of legal carry (which would be cool from my point of view), THEN we could talk about exercising a right on that property.


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    Greenbrier Mall is posted. When you enter through the main entrance there's a sign with over 20 rules for the mall posted. Rule number 20 reads "no firearms or dangerous weapons allowed" The sign is on the left wall so you really have to go out of your way to see it. At the end of the rules list there a sentence that reads "if you feel any of the above rules violate your rights please contact mall management" Funny thing about rule 20 is, after you enter the mall there's a knife store called the Baer Edge that has battle axes and swords for sale.

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    GLENGLOCKER wrote:
    Greenbrier Mall is posted. When you enter through the main entrance there's a sign with over 20 rules for the mall posted. Rule number 20 reads "no firearms or dangerous weapons allowed" The sign is on the left wall so you really have to go out of your way to see it. At the end of the rules list there a sentence that reads "if you feel any of the above rules violate your rights please contact mall management" Funny thing about rule 20 is, after you enter the mall there's a knife store called the Baer Edge that has battle axes and swords for sale.
    If the rule is that well hidden, they would most probably have to give a verbal notice to anyone they see before a trespass charge could stick.

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    Even better is Lynnhaven Mall.

    They don't have their 'rules of themall' sign (which includes the line 'no firearms or dangerous weapons') at all entrances.

    I can in fact walk into the mall and exit the mall USING PUBLIC ENTRY / EXIT points without ever seeing a sign that indicates what the rules are.

    So is a half-stated policy like this really enforceable from the doorway? I would say no.

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    darthmord wrote:
    Even better is Lynnhaven Mall.

    They don't have their 'rules of themall' sign (which includes the line 'no firearms or dangerous weapons') at all entrances.

    I can in fact walk into the mall and exit the mall USING PUBLIC ENTRY / EXIT points without ever seeing a sign that indicates what the rules are.

    So is a half-stated policy like this really enforceable from the doorway? I would say no.
    No - they would have to verbally tell you in that case and could only charge you if you refused to comply.

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    VCDL President wrote:
    GLENGLOCKER wrote:
    Greenbrier Mall is posted. When you enter through the main entrance there's a sign with over 20 rules for the mall posted. Rule number 20 reads "no firearms or dangerous weapons allowed" The sign is on the left wall so you really have to go out of your way to see it. At the end of the rules list there a sentence that reads "if you feel any of the above rules violate your rights please contact mall management" Funny thing about rule 20 is, after you enter the mall there's a knife store called the Baer Edge that has battle axes and swords for sale.
    If the rule is that well hidden, they would most probably have to give a verbal notice to anyone they see before a trespass charge could stick.
    I never knew it was there until someone told me where to look for it, and the font is about this big on the sign. No Firearms

  17. #17
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    VCDL President wrote:
    GLENGLOCKER wrote:
    Greenbrier Mall is posted. When you enter through the main entrance there's a sign with over 20 rules for the mall posted. Rule number 20 reads "no firearms or dangerous weapons allowed" The sign is on the left wall so you really have to go out of your way to see it. At the end of the rules list there a sentence that reads "if you feel any of the above rules violate your rights please contact mall management" Funny thing about rule 20 is, after you enter the mall there's a knife store called the Baer Edge that has battle axes and swords for sale.
    If the rule is that well hidden, they would most probably have to give a verbal notice to anyone they see before a trespass charge could stick.
    Open or concealed carry on private property is a rule violation, not trespassing.Nowhere in the Virginia Code is there asection that provides for aprivate rule violationbeing a trespass.

    Think of it this way: If rule # 47 was no gum chewing, then would a person that was chewing gum be trespassing? No, he was breaking a private rule. The owner can ask him to leave, and if he refuses, then he is trespassing. It is the same for firearms.

    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Thundar wrote:
    VCDL President wrote:
    GLENGLOCKER wrote:
    Greenbrier Mall is posted. When you enter through the main entrance there's a sign with over 20 rules for the mall posted. Rule number 20 reads "no firearms or dangerous weapons allowed" The sign is on the left wall so you really have to go out of your way to see it. At the end of the rules list there a sentence that reads "if you feel any of the above rules violate your rights please contact mall management" Funny thing about rule 20 is, after you enter the mall there's a knife store called the Baer Edge that has battle axes and swords for sale.
    If the rule is that well hidden, they would most probably have to give a verbal notice to anyone they see before a trespass charge could stick.
    Open or concealed carry on private property is a rule violation, not trespassing.Nowhere in the Virginia Code is there asection that provides for aprivate rule violationbeing a trespass.

    Think of it this way: If rule # 47 was no gum chewing, then would a person that was chewing gum be trespassing? No, he was breaking a private rule. The owner can ask him to leave, and if he refuses, then he is trespassing. It is the same for firearms.
    It has been argued that if there is a posting and it is predominant enough, you could be charged. In practice, I don't think that really happens.


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    What if you, conceal carrying,go into a mall with a no firearms policy and while there a bad guy comes in and starts shooting people and you pull your gun and shoot and kill the bad guy. What could they do to you? Alsoyou could be mistaken for the bad guy when the police arrive afterwards.

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    You could kill the bad guy and still be alive to pay the trespassing fine.

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    Nelson_Muntz wrote:
    You could kill the bad guy and still be alive to pay the trespassing fine.
    +1

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    Chkultr wrote:
    Nelson_Muntz wrote:
    You could kill the bad guy and still be alive to pay the trespassing fine.
    +1
    Or youadequately defend your actions.

    Doctrine of competing harms/doctrine of necessity: a key concept to the affirmative defense of justifiable homicide. It comes from English common law and means you are allowed to break the law in the rare circumstance where following the law would cause more human injury than breaking it.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Darylvb wrote:
    What if you, conceal carrying,go into a mall with a no firearms policy and while there a bad guy comes in and starts shooting people and you pull your gun and shoot and kill the bad guy. What could they do to you? Alsoyou could be mistaken for the bad guy when the police arrive afterwards.
    Much prefer the phrase "stop the threat" to k*ll the bad guy.

    Defense is doctrine of lesser evil as noted by other posters.

    Mistaken for bad guy when police arrive? Only if you are alive will it matter. There are ways to communicate your status - been discussed at length.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Open or concealed carry on private property is a rule violation, not trespassing.Nowhere in the Virginia Code is there asection that provides for aprivate rule violationbeing a trespass.
    This is not legal advice; were this to be legal advice, a bill for services would be attached.

    Now that that's out of the way... Here's a 30 second analysis of how a sign can become a bludgeon.

    An argument can be made that the rules for entry posted in the signs are a unilateral contract for entry. Why would a contract for entry be necessary? Absent permission to enter, noone has permission to enter the land of another - and such permission can be conditioned upon certain events. For premises held open to the public - such as malls - most people on that property are considered invitees. Other types of people on property not their own are Licensees and Trespassers. A Licensee, according to Blacks (7th Ed, 1999), is "(2) One who has permission to enter or use another's premises, but only for one's own purposes and not for the occupier's benefit." One with a mere license is tolerated on the property but not asked to leave (e.g. taking a shortcut across a neighbor's property), invited to enter (Invitees), or have passibe consent. A Tresspassor is "one who intentionally and without consent or privilege enters another property. There is tortious tresspass and criminal tresspass - the former does not require police intervention or a prosecution.

    How does that interact with signage? It can be argued that the signs provide the "ground rules" (the unilateral contract for permission to enter) by which the occupier of the property grants a license, or invites, the public onto its property. VA Code 18.2-119 begins thus: "If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands...." (Emphasis mine.) A licensee or invitee has authority of law to enter, thus is not a tresspassor.


    ---

    OK, so that took me about 10 minutes, mostly looking up the specific definions.

    Remember: this is not legal advice. I am not your attorney, nor am I offering to become your attorney.


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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    My father in law used to be the mall manager there. Cool guy. Not into guns, but reasonable. Wouldn't matter. Corporate rules driven by lawyers. Never stopped me from going concealed...
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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