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Thread: local ordinances

  1. #1
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    I live in Moore co. and I've read a lot in this forum that LEOs are not the people to ask about the law. So where can I find out if there are any local ordinances preventing me from OCing?

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    that is, of course, the fun part, as many, if not most, cities and counties do not have their ordinances online

    Usually the local library will have a copy of them, but again, they are printed, not online, not searchable, and they rarely have a very good index.

  3. #3
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    You can try websites like http://www.municode.com. There's a few different websites that cover a surprising amount of localities for a given state. If you just can't find anything online, and don't want to/can't visit the city hall type location to read the laws yourself, you could try talking to the city attorney or calling the Mayor's office and tell them you have some legal questions. Hopefully they will point you in the right direction.

    If you would like to solicit the help of the other members of this forum, let us know what area(s) you have questions about, and we may be ableto help you out!

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    North Carolina has full Preemption of gun laws, thus localities can't ban open carry by ordinance. You can open carry in every locality. There are some anti-open carry folks (even on here) that will no doubt tell you about Cary and other townshaving ordinances and arresting open carry folks. I open carry in Cary daily, it's not a problem.

    I have open carried throughout NC for several years now with no problem.

    Don't let anyone tell you open carry is illegal in NC , or holster carry when in a car is "concealed carry" , it's NOT. Some on here are Anti-gun folks, anti-open carry and/or concealed carry guys that had an permit instructor give them bad information.

    Open carry & enjoy ! Sure you may have a few conversations with the police, so what. Just be prepared and study the law. I strongly recommend a book, You and the police by Boston T. Party. Available on Amazon.com for like $20.00

    A few pointers:

    The police can't detain you without reasonable articulable suspicion. Open carry in itself doesn't reach the legal standard.

    North Carolina doesn't have a stop & identify law, thus the police can't demand your ID because you are open carrying or "look suspicious". Reasonable articulable suspicion is well defined by lawand not just a hunch in the head of an officer.

    You never have to talk to the police oranswer any questions.

    My reply to any law enforcement interaction is : I'm I being detained ?

    I have walked away from several conversations with LEOs without evershowing ID, answering a single question orbeing detained.

    If thepolice violate my rights, they get sued. That has only occured once, but I did get a small settlement. Don't let anyone deprive you of your rights.

    Stay out of prohibited places, restaurants that serve alcohol etc and you will be fine.

  5. #5
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    no carry permit ? wrote:
    North Carolina has full Preemption of gun laws, thus localities can't ban open carry by ordinance.
    Cite? The only "preemption" law I know of is G.S. 14-415.23:


    § 14‑415.23. Statewide uniformity.


    It is the intent of the General Assembly to prescribe a uniform system for the regulation of legally carrying a concealed handgun. To insure uniformity, no political subdivisions, boards, or agencies of the State nor any county, city, municipality, municipal corporation, town, township, village, nor any department or agency thereof, may enact ordinances, rules, or regulations concerning legally carrying a concealed handgun. A unit of local government may adopt an ordinance to permit the posting of a prohibition against carrying a concealed handgun, in accordance with G.S. 14‑415.11(c), on local government buildings, their appurtenant premises, and parks. (1995, c. 398, s. 1.)
    This law only refers to concealed handguns, first of all. Secondly, it gives local governments freedom to firearms in certain buildings and parks. That is NOT full-preemption. It's close, but not quite. If there IS another law regarding statewide uniformity, please let me know.

  6. #6
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    Preemption statute:

    § 14‑409.40. Statewide uniformity of local regulation.

    (a) It is declared by the General Assembly that the regulation of firearms is properly an issue of general, statewide concern, and that the entire field of regulation of firearms is preempted from regulation by local governments except as provided by this section.


    (a1) The General Assembly further declares that the lawful design, marketing, manufacture, distribution, sale, or transfer of firearms or ammunition to the public is not an unreasonably dangerous activity and does not constitute a nuisance per se and furthermore, that it is the unlawful use of firearms and ammunition, rather than their lawful design, marketing, manufacture, distribution, sale, or transfer that is the proximate cause of injuries arising from their unlawful use. This subsection applies only to causes of action brought under subsection (g) of this section.

    (b) Unless otherwise permitted by statute, no county or municipality, by ordinance, resolution, or other enactment, shall regulate in any manner the possession, ownership, storage, transfer, sale, purchase, licensing, or registration of firearms, firearms ammunition, components of firearms, dealers in firearms, or dealers in handgun components or parts.


    (c) Notwithstanding subsection (b) of this section, a county or municipality, by zoning or other ordinance, may regulate or prohibit the sale of firearms at a location only if there is a lawful, general, similar regulation or prohibition of commercial activities at that location. Nothing in this subsection shall restrict the right of a county or municipality to adopt a general zoning plan that prohibits any commercial activity within a fixed distance of a school or other educational institution except with a special use permit issued for a commercial activity found not to pose a danger to the health, safety, or general welfare of persons attending the school or educational institution within the fixed distance.

    (d) No county or municipality, by zoning or other ordinance, shall regulate in any manner firearms shows with regulations more stringent than those applying to shows of other types of items.

    (e) A county or municipality may regulate the transport, carrying, or possession of firearms by employees of the local unit of government in the course of their employment with that local unit of government.

    (f) Nothing contained in this section prohibits municipalities or counties from application of their authority under G.S. 153A‑129, 160A‑189, 14‑269, 14‑269.2, 14‑269.3, 14‑269.4, 14‑277.2, 14‑415.11, 14‑415.23, including prohibiting the possession of firearms in public‑owned buildings, on the grounds or parking areas of those buildings, or in public parks or recreation areas, except nothing in this subsection shall prohibit a person from storing a firearm within a motor vehicle while the vehicle is on these grounds or areas. Nothing contained in this section prohibits municipalities or counties from exercising powers provided by law in declared states of emergency under Article 36A of this Chapter.

    (g) The authority to bring suit and the right to recover against any firearms or ammunition marketer, manufacturer, distributor, dealer, seller, or trade association by or on behalf of any governmental unit, created by or pursuant to an act of the General Assembly or the Constitution, or any department, agency, or authority thereof, for damages, abatement, injunctive relief, or any other remedy resulting from or relating to the lawful design, marketing, manufacture, distribution, sale, or transfer of firearms or ammunition to the public is reserved exclusively to the State. Any action brought by the State pursuant to this section shall be brought by the Attorney General on behalf of the State. This section shall not prohibit a political subdivision or local governmental unit from bringing an action against a firearms or ammunition marketer, manufacturer, distributor, dealer, seller, or trade association for breach of contract or warranty for defect of materials or workmanship as to firearms or ammunition purchased by the political subdivision or local governmental unit. (1995 (Reg. Sess., 1996), c. 727, s. 1; 2002‑77, s. 1.)



    NCGS 153A-129 gives counties (there is another, simliar statue for cities) the ability to almost completely ban open carry

    § 153A-129. Firearms. [/b]
    A county may by ordinance regulate, restrict, or prohibit the discharge of firearms at
    any time or place except when used to take birds or animals pursuant to Chapter 113, Subchapter IV, when used in defense of person or property, or when used pursuant to lawful directions of law-enforcement officers. A county may also regulate the display of firearms on the public roads, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property. This section does not limit a county's authority to take action under Chapter 14, Article 36A. (1973, c. 822, s. 1; 2006-264, s. 16.)


    § 160A-189. Firearms. [/b]
    A city may by ordinance regulate, restrict, or prohibit the discharge of firearms at any time or place within the city except when used in defense of person or property or pursuant to lawful directions of law-enforcement officers, and may regulate the display of firearms on the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property. Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit a city's authority to take action under Article 36A of Chapter 14 of the General Statutes. (1971, c. 698, s. 1.)





  7. #7
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    Thanks Ray, I knew there was another one, and I'm glad you highlighted what you did.An interesting question is whether or not"display" applies toopen carry. One could argue that you are notdisplayingyour firearm, but rather you are simply notconcealing it.I mean, is the cellphoneclipped to my belton "display"? I would think not.

    Another important part of the statute that you didn't highlight is this one:

    "Nothing contained in this section prohibits municipalities or counties from application of their authority under G.S. 153A‑129, 160A‑189, 14‑269, 14‑269.2, 14‑269.3, 14‑269.4, 14‑277.2, 14‑415.11, 14‑415.23,including prohibiting the possession of firearms in public‑owned buildings, on the grounds or parking areas of those buildings, or in public parks or recreation areas..."

    This little part makes it possible for localities to make up their own rules in certain areas if they wish, which is the exact opposite of statewide uniformity. It effectively creates an unknown minefield of no-gun areas throughout the State, adding to the already known minefield which is the rest of NC's ineffective gun laws.

  8. #8
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    They can only play the make up our own rules game on city & town owned property.

    With respect to full preemption: Localities can't regulate open carry or concealed carry in North Carolina.Chapel Hill banned open carry but their ordinance was litigated and overturned. They then adopted a ban on open carry of "easily concealed" firearms and require a certain size weapon (even a mini-Glock qualifies). This was also challenged but affirmed, unfortunately.

    Try getting your mind around that one, you can't open carry a easily concealed weapon, LOL.

    Similar thing occur ed in Cary. The previous police chief maintained their ordinance banning open carry was legal and they would arrest and prosecute anyone found doing it.The North Carolina attorney General informed him he was mistaken and that localities can't regulate firearms other than discharge of a firearm, and carry on their property. That is considered Full preemption by most folks, as 99% of states allow that. Frankly I don't really have a problem with those stipulations, seems reasonable.

    I regularly carryin Cary (daily) & Chapel Hill (weekly) , have been observed by LEOs many times and never had a problem.

  9. #9
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    DreQo wrote:
    Thanks Ray, I knew there was another one, and I'm glad you highlighted what you did.An interesting question is whether or not"display" applies toopen carry. One could argue that you are notdisplayingyour firearm, but rather you are simply notconcealing it.I mean, is the cellphoneclipped to my belton "display"? I would think not.

    Another important part of the statute that you didn't highlight is this one:

    "Nothing contained in this section prohibits municipalities or counties from application of their authority under G.S. 153A‑129, 160A‑189, 14‑269, 14‑269.2, 14‑269.3, 14‑269.4, 14‑277.2, 14‑415.11, 14‑415.23,including prohibiting the possession of firearms in public‑owned buildings, on the grounds or parking areas of those buildings, or in public parks or recreation areas..."

    This little part makes it possible for localities to make up their own rules in certain areas if they wish, which is the exact opposite of statewide uniformity. It effectively creates an unknown minefield of no-gun areas throughout the State, adding to the already known minefield which is the rest of NC's ineffective gun laws.
    DreQo,

    I think arguing that open carry is not "displaying" is a losing battle, IMHO. If you think about it, the term "open carry" likely didn't exist at the time the law was written. Second, to argue that display refers to drawing, or upholstering a weapon, seems to ignore the fact that there is already a brandishing law on the books.

    As for the prohibitions on locally-owned property, that simply means that local government may post weapons bans on those properties, much as any property owner may. They cannot simply ban them by ordinance, they MUST post notice of the ban like anyone else. In fact, the very next phrase in the statute specifically says "nothing in this subsection shall prohibit a person from storing a firearm within a motor vehicle while the vehicle is on these grounds or areas.

    The dangerous part, IMO, is NCGS 153A-129 and NCGS 160-189 (cited above), because those types of ordinances are often not well known, nor highly publicized, and can therefore land simony in hot water without any intention of breaking the law.





  10. #10
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    lol I think it's funny that you mentioned that the term "open carry" probably didn't exist when that law was written, since in another thread we (yourself included) have been discussing the NC Supreme Court's decision from 1921 in which carrying "openly" is referenced . I do see what you're saying, though.

    I think the bottom line here is that NC's gun laws are NOT acceptable, and we should NOT be content with our so-called not-so-bad restrictions.

  11. #11
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    DreQo wrote:
    I think the bottom line here is that NC's gun laws are NOT acceptable, and we should NOT be content with our so-called not-so-bad restrictions.
    +1,

    I don't think we have ever disagreed on this, only on what the current laws are


    BTW, in the Kerner decision (1921), the court repeatedly interchanges the terms "unconcealed" and "openly" but Never says "open carry"

  12. #12
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    RayBurton72 wrote:
    DreQo wrote:
    I think the bottom line here is that NC's gun laws are NOT acceptable, and we should NOT be content with our so-called not-so-bad restrictions.
    +1,

    I don't think we have ever disagreed on this, only on what the current laws are


    BTW, in the Kerner decision (1921), the court repeatedly interchanges the terms "unconcealed" and "openly" but Never says "open carry"
    Oh I know they didn't flat out say "open carry", but they did use the word "openly" in reference to carrying. With that in mind, they were implying the phrase "openly carrying". I was actually surprised to see that the phrase is as old as it is!

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