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FOIA Request - Follow up to Sterile Open Carry at Norfolk City Hall

Thundar

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I posted that I was working on a FOIArequestfor the behavior of the security guards atNorfolk City Hall on 07 October. Here is the request:



15 October 2008

From:XXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX



To: Regina V.K. Williams, Norfolk City Manager

Office of the City Manager

1101 City Hall Building

810 Union Street

Norfolk, VA 23510



Subject: Freedom of Information Act Request



1. On the evening of 07 October 2008 I tried to attend the Norfolk City Council meeting held at the City Hall Building and scheduled to begin at 1930.



2. When I entered the building the security guard asked for my identification. I informed her that I did not have any ID for her. She asked really? And I answered really. She then ordered me to stand beside the desk and forbade my further entry past the lobby or my exit from the building. She then ordered the other security guard to call the police. I was illegally seized and detained by the security guard for approximately five minutes.



3. In order to support my Felony Abduction complaint to the Commonwealth’s Attorney and my Federal Civil Rights Complaint I request a copy of the following documents be provided in accordance with the Freedom of Information Act:



  • The roster of security guards working at The City Hall Building on the evening of 07 October 2008.
  • The sign in sheets that the security guards asked people to sign upon entry on 07 October 2008.
  • The written policy, procedures, practices, plans or guidance of the City of Norfolk, VA, or any agency, department or unit of the city pertaining to the identification, intimidation or detainment of citizens by security guards and the written instructions or manual directing security guards to compel or demand identification and the signing of a roster in order to gain admittance to a public meeting. .
  • Any e-mail by Norfolk City Employees, contractors, contract employees or consultants interpreting, advising or pertaining to the City Hall identification procedures or security log use, to include practices, policies, guidance or plans used by the City of Norfolk for City Hall.
  • An audio recording of any emergency or non emergency telephone call to the dispatchers from city hall on the evening of 07October 2008 between the hours of 1830 and 2030.
  • The Police Roll Call rosters indicating the Police Officers assigned to City hall an/or the City Council meeting on 07October 2008.
  • Any other documents showing the names an/or badge numbers of Police Officers assigned to City Hall an/or the City Council Meeting on the evening of 07 October 2008.
  • The Norfolk police dispatcher incident log from 1800 – 2200 on 07 October 2008.
 

Xeni

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Ask for the information in digital format rather than in printed copy. It'll save you potentially thousands of dollars as they can charge you for the copy costs.
 

Thundar

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ProShooter wrote:
Thundar wrote:
3. In order to support my Felony Abduction complaint to the Commonwealth’s Attorney ........



You are going to seek a warrant for abduction?

Yes.

Relevant code:

§ 18.2-47. Abduction and kidnapping defined; punishment.

A. Any person, who, by force, intimidation or deception, and without legal justification or excuse, seizes, takes, transports, detains or secretes the person of another, with the intent to deprive such other person of his personal liberty or to withhold or conceal him from any person, authority or institution lawfully entitled to his charge, shall be deemed guilty of "abduction"; but the provisions of this section shall not apply to any law-enforcement officer in the performance of his duty. The terms "abduction" and "kidnapping" shall be synonymous in this Code. Abduction for which no punishment is otherwise prescribed shall be punished as a Class 5 felony.

Link: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-47
 

ProShooter

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Thundar wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
Thundar wrote:
3. In order to support my Felony Abduction complaint to the Commonwealth’s Attorney ........



You are going to seek a warrant for abduction?

Yes.

Relevant code:

§ 18.2-47. Abduction and kidnapping defined; punishment.

A. Any person, who, by force, intimidation or deception, and without legal justification or excuse, seizes, takes, transports, detains or secretes the person of another, with the intent to deprive such other person of his personal liberty or to withhold or conceal him from any person, authority or institution lawfully entitled to his charge, shall be deemed guilty of "abduction"; but the provisions of this section shall not apply to any law-enforcement officer in the performance of his duty. The terms "abduction" and "kidnapping" shall be synonymous in this Code. Abduction for which no punishment is otherwise prescribed shall be punished as a Class 5 felony.

Link: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-47
oh I'm quite familar with the Code.
 

ODA 226

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Thundar,

Why haven't you gone to the magistrate yet or have you? I don't think this will go anywhere and could be counter-productive. At best you were illegally detained and not much else.
 

Thundar

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Magistrates office will not take action unless I have a name and address, thus the FOIA request to find the name.

Illegal detention by other than a LEO meets the felony definition of abduction in the VA Code.
 

DrMark

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Instead of paragraphs 1, 2, and 3, why not just state "In accordance with the Freedom of Information Act, I hereby request a copy of the following documents" followed by your bulleted list.

What benefit is there to airing the issue to Ms. Williams?
 

bayboy42

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Gloucester Point, Virginia, USA
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Thundar wrote:
I posted that I was working on a FOIArequestfor the behavior of the security guards atNorfolk City Hall on 07 October. Here is the request:



15 October 2008

From:XXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX



To: Regina V.K. Williams, Norfolk City Manager

Office of the City Manager

1101 City Hall Building

810 Union Street

Norfolk, VA 23510



Subject: Freedom of Information Act Request



1. On the evening of 07 October 2008 I tried to attend the Norfolk City Council meeting held at the City Hall Building and scheduled to begin at 1930.



2. When I entered the building the security guard asked for my identification. I informed her that I did not have any ID for her. She asked really? And I answered really. She then ordered me to stand beside the desk and forbade my further entry past the lobby or my exit from the building. She then ordered the other security guard to call the police. I was illegally seized and detained by the security guard for approximately five minutes.



3. In order to support my Felony Abduction complaint to the Commonwealth’s Attorney and my Federal Civil Rights Complaint I request a copy of the following documents be provided in accordance with the Freedom of Information Act:



  • The roster of security guards working at The City Hall Building on the evening of 07 October 2008.
  • The sign in sheets that the security guards asked people to sign upon entry on 07 October 2008.
  • The written policy, procedures, practices, plans or guidance of the City of Norfolk, VA, or any agency, department or unit of the city pertaining to the identification, intimidation or detainment of citizens by security guards and the written instructions or manual directing security guards to compel or demand identification and the signing of a roster in order to gain admittance to a public meeting. .
  • Any e-mail by Norfolk City Employees, contractors, contract employees or consultants interpreting, advising or pertaining to the City Hall identification procedures or security log use, to include practices, policies, guidance or plans used by the City of Norfolk for City Hall.
  • An audio recording of any emergency or non emergency telephone call to the dispatchers from city hall on the evening of 07October 2008 between the hours of 1830 and 2030.
  • The Police Roll Call rosters indicating the Police Officers assigned to City hall an/or the City Council meeting on 07October 2008.
  • Any other documents showing the names an/or badge numbers of Police Officers assigned to City Hall an/or the City Council Meeting on the evening of 07 October 2008.
  • The Norfolk police dispatcher incident log from 1800 – 2200 on 07 October 2008.
Was this ever submitted? If so, any response?
 

no carry permit ?

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ODA 226 wrote:
Thundar,

Why haven't you gone to the magistrate yet or have you? I don't think this will go anywhere and could be counter-productive. At best you were illegally detained and not much else.

Agreed, seeking a warrant is ignorant and will make you look like a fool. You could have just walked away and were not even truly detained.

Did you ask, " I'mI being detained ? "

I'm all for asserting our rights and question their right to demand ID to enter the building, but you are being a bit sillyin seeking awarrant .
 

ProShooter

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no carry permit ? wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:
Thundar,

Why haven't you gone to the magistrate yet or have you? I don't think this will go anywhere and could be counter-productive. At best you were illegally detained and not much else.

Agreed, seeking a warrant is ignorant and will make you look like a fool. You could have just walked away and were not even truly detained.

Did you ask, " I'mI being detained ? "

I'm all for asserting our rights and question their right to demand ID to enter the building, but you are being a bit sillyin seeking awarrant .
+1
 

no carry permit ?

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He could have just walked out. Security guards are NOT sworn law enforcement officers in Virginia and can't legally detain you. They can only make a citizens arrest in Virginia for a felony that they have witnessed. Does this get ignored by uneducated, poorly trained security guards ? You bet. Was he arrested ? Nope. Will anything come of his effort to prosecute ? NO.

Some of you guys are always barking up the wrong tree, so quick to "fight for your rights" (which is great ! ) but we need to pick are battles strategically. Positioning the open carry movement as a group that is walking around with a chip on their shoulder, always looking for a fight is counter productive to our cause. If you want to fight your localgovernment's ID checking go file a lawsuit to fight it. Try suing the security company, but seeking an arrest warrant on this is ignorant.
 

ProShooter

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no carry permit ? wrote:
He could have just walked out. Security guards are NOT sworn law enforcement officers in Virginia and can't legally detain you. They can only make a citizens arrest in Virginia for a felony that they have witnessed. Does this get ignored by uneducated, poorly trained security guards ? You bet. Was he arrested ? Nope. Will anything come of his effort to prosecute ? NO.

Some of you guys are always barking up the wrong tree, so quick to "fight for your rights" (which is great ! ) but we need to pick are battles strategically. Positioning the open carry movement as a group that is walking around with a chip on their shoulder, always looking for a fight is counter productive to our cause. If you want to fight your localgovernment's ID checking go file a lawsuit to fight it. Try suing the security company, but seeking an arrest warrant on this is ignorant.
+1 This is the most intelligent reply I've read yet.
 

LEO 229

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ProShooter wrote:
no carry permit ? wrote:
He could have just walked out. Security guards are NOT sworn law enforcement officers in Virginia and can't legally detain you. They can only make a citizens arrest in Virginia for a felony that they have witnessed. Does this get ignored by uneducated, poorly trained security guards ? You bet. Was he arrested ? Nope. Will anything come of his effort to prosecute ? NO.

Some of you guys are always barking up the wrong tree, so quick to "fight for your rights" (which is great ! ) but we need to pick are battles strategically. Positioning the open carry movement as a group that is walking around with a chip on their shoulder, always looking for a fight is counter productive to our cause. If you want to fight your localgovernment's ID checking go file a lawsuit to fight it. Try suing the security company, but seeking an arrest warrant on this is ignorant.
+1 This is the most intelligent reply I've read yet.
Agreed!

Thundar... Why did you not call the police and report this "felony" immediately so that they could identify the guard and look for any witnesses?

Why are you trying to investigate a felony case on your own?

Why does your FOIA contain details on the incident? Is it needed to justifywhy you want it before they will release the information?

Why do you need all the information you requestedif you are looking to obtain a felony warrant? How do you hope to make a case with emails, dispatch logs, badge numbers, sign in rosters? It has nothing to do with the act itself.

You posted your event and some members mayagree with you that there was a crime committed. This is what they call "The blind leading the blind." :lol:

Permit me to give you my OPINION on the matter.

You simply have no case here.

You know very well that a security guard has no lawful authority to make you do anything. Their job is basicallyto monitor the activity and call the police and report crimes. In your own post you advised that she said to "call the police".

"She then ordered me to stand beside the desk and forbade my further entry past the lobby or my exit from the building."

In the above quote you identified


  • She "ordered" you to stand behind a desk.
  • She forbid you further entry
  • She [prevented] you from exiting the building
Did you try to walk out?

The security guard carries no more weight than astrangeron the street walking up and telling you toto stay where you are so he can call the police. Even if he was 6'5" and 220 pounds..As intimidating as a strangermight be....thereis no abduction.



§ 18.2-47. Abduction and kidnapping defined; punishment.

A. Any person, who, by



  • force, (She used no physical force, right?)
  • intimidation or (How did she intimidate you? You had a gun!!)
  • deception, (She was not deceiving you.)
and without

  • legal justification or
  • excuse, (She has a good excuse to "tell" you to stay.)
[The act]

  • seizes, (Unless she grabbed you... you were not seized.)
  • takes,
  • transports,
  • detains or (Did you try to leave?)
  • secretes
the person of another,

with the intent to

  • deprive such other person of his personal liberty or
  • to withhold or conceal him from
    • any person,
    • authority or
    • institution lawfully entitled to his charge,
shall be deemed guilty of "abduction";

but the provisions of this section shall not apply to any law-enforcement officer in the performance of his duty.

The terms "abduction" and "kidnapping" shall be synonymous in this Code. Abduction for which no punishment is otherwise prescribed shall be punished as a Class 5 felony.

Looks to me like you do not really have much of a case.

To obtain a warrant you will need more information like name, DOB, SSN, OL number, home address. I doubt your FOIA is going to get that for you.

And when you go to see the Magistrate and request your warrant... he or she will probably deny your request because an officer is normally needed for felony cases.

But best of luck with your case... seems like a waste of time to me.
 

Mike

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The request for existing records looks fine - not sure why any criminal charge would arise from the employees barring your entry temporarily. But getting the records can help you follow up to make sure the guards get re-trained that ID cannot be required to attend public meetings.
 

LEO 229

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Mike wrote:
The request for existing records looks fine - not sure why any criminal charge would arise from the employees barring your entry temporarily. But getting the records can help you follow up to make sure the guards get re-trained that ID cannot be required to attend public meetings.
Why are we hanging ID card checks on the guards and suggesting they be retrained? These guys get paid $7.00 an hour to do what they are told. You should take up such a matters with their employer.

Since the entry log was requested by Thundarin his FOIA... I suspect the guards were told to maintain a log andwere following orders when theywere checking ID cards. Guards do not normally take such measures on their own.

I do not think Thundar's allegation was his being prevented from going inside. It was about being told to standin front of a deskand "ordered" not to leave.
 
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