Buying at Court Days in Mt. Sterling

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I've been lurking in this forum for a few days now, and I have to say that it is a great resource. I had no idea that open carry was legal, and assumed you needed CCDW or be a LEO to do so legally.

I'm 20 years old currently and I would like to open carry until I can get my CCDW. I don't want to start a concealed-vs-open argument, but I'd like to have my options open for both.

My question is, if I bought a pistol at Court Days this weekend, and OC'd it for a while, then I have a run-in with LEO which seems very common, and the gun comes back stolen or used in a crime what kind of trouble can I get in? Is it possible to register it to me and "clean" it so to speak?

Am I stuck waiting until I'm 21?

Thanks

Greg

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OK.....You must be 21 to purchase from an FFL DEALER...you already should know that. Old enough for a FTF non FFL purchase.

When buying from an individual, such as might be at "Court Days", make sure you get a record (ID) of whom you purchase it from. KEEP THIS INFO SECURED.

IF....you carry open, and IF you're found to be in possessionof a stolen weapon after being stopped, you will be cleared after furnishing the purchase info in good faith. No worry of a criminal record for you.

Go purchase your weapon and be safe.

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I'm not really sure how to go about that in a fool proof manner. If I manage to get a ID# from somebody, or even a photocopy, when asked they could deny that they sold it to me.

I could get some pictures, maybe a closeup of an ID, and then it beside the gun showing the location. I'm not sure if anyone would be willing to show me an ID though.

Am I too worried about this? Should I just ask the KSP walking around what they think I should do?

Greg

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Simple....If someone trying to sell me a handgun (or anything, for that matter) doesn't want to show me an ID, I sure as heck ain't going to buy from them.:exclaim:

Also, I really doubt someome selling you a gun is gonna show ID if it is stolen.

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TheMrMitch wrote:

When buying from an individual, such as might be at "Court Days", make sure you get a record (ID) of whom you purchase it from. KEEP THIS INFO SECURED.

IF....you carry open, and IF you're found to be in possessionof a stolen weapon after being stopped, you will be cleared after furnishing the purchase info in good faith. No worry of a criminal record for you.

Go purchase your weapon and be safe.

Click to expand...

Huh? What's this all about?

Guns are not contraband.

A private sale is a private sale, not need to track with paperwork or IDs - and merely knowing the identiyt of the seller "clears" you no more than possessing a stolen gun "proves" you are the thief.

And if police handle your firearm without probable cause or consent to obtain serial number information, the evidence can be suppressed as a Fourth Amendment violations anyway. See Hicks v. Arizona.

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OK....perhaps 'cleared' is the incorrect word.

I will not purchase from someone I do not know either personally or by ID of some sort. Nothing wrong there. IF it turns out the item is, indeed stolen, then I will be absolved of KNOWINGLY buying stolen wares by proving item was bought in good faith via furnishing ID of person I got it from.

It was in answer to finn88's question on a possible bust for a stolen gun causing him a problem before he gets his CWDL.

No...guns are surely not contraband. No... one doesNOT haveto ask for an ID in a FTF. Unwise if you don't. And....suggestions I issued will not guarantee your freedom and things don't always work out. But they will help.

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Well... I went ahead and bought a nice Ruger 9mm, it came with the original case and manual. The seller I chose had a very large selection and didn't seem shady. He asked for ID from someone trying to sell to him, and he gave me a business card as that was all I requested.

I feel pretty good about the transaction, and I think I was just paranoid before, but I'm over it now.

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TheMrMitch wrote:

OK....perhaps 'cleared' is the incorrect word.

I will not purchase from someone I do not know either personally or by ID of some sort. Nothing wrong there. IF it turns out the item is, indeed stolen, then I will be absolved of KNOWINGLY buying stolen wares by proving item was bought in good faith via furnishing ID of person I got it from.

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Absolved of what? Why would having someone's ID information absolve you of anything?

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Having the ID information of the seller will darn sure absolve you of KNOWINGLY purchasing a stolen weapon. I guarantee that will work.



And finn88 you may rest knowing what you did, will help you suould the deal turn sour on you.

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There is no positive defense against receiving stolen property (the actual charge that gets placed on you when the state cannot prove you did the theft)

It doesn't matter how much ID you get from a person...

There is no way to absolve yourself of guilt by getting ID from the seller. This is why I quit coming to this forum. Too many layman lawyers in here.

All you have to do is copy the serial number, and request the local police agency querry the serical number through NCIC.

But of course, the anti-law enforcement feellings in this forum prevent you guys from doing it the right way. You know, sometimes we do help...

514.110 Receiving stolen property.
[font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"][font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"]
(1) A person is guilty of receiving stolen property when he receives, retains, or disposes of movable property of another knowing that it has been stolen, or having reason to believe that it has been stolen, unless the property is received, retained, or disposed of with intent to restore it to the owner.

(2) The possession by any person of any recently stolen movable property shall be prima facie evidence that such person knew such property was stolen.

(3) Receiving stolen property is a Class A misdemeanor unless the value of the property is three hundred dollars ($300) or more, in which case it is a Class D felony; or unless:

(a) The property is a firearm, regardless of the value of the firearm, in which case it is a Class D felony; or

(b) The property is anhydrous ammonia, regardless of the value of the ammonia, in which case it is a Class D felony unless it is proven that the person violated this section with the intent to manufacture methamphetamine in violation of KRS 218A.1432, in which case it is a Class B felony for the first offense and a Class A felony for each subsequent offense.
[/font][/font]
Effective: [font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"][font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"]July 14, 2000
[/font][/font]
History: [font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"][font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"]Amended 2000 Ky. Acts ch. 233, sec. 9, effective July 14, 2000; and ch. 490, sec. 2, effective July 14, 2000. -- Amended 1994 Ky. Acts ch. 314, sec. 1, effective July 15, 1994; and ch. 396, sec. 9, effective July 15, 1994. -- Created 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 406, sec. 127[/font][/font][font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"][font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"], [/font][/font][font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"][font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"]effective January 1, 1975.
[/font][/font]
Legislative Research Commission Note [font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"][font="Times New Roman,Times New Roman"](7/14/2000). This section was amended by 2000 Ky.
[/font][/font]

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OK folks. Gotta quit buying anything unless in Larue County where the Sheriff and Judge WILL allow you to prove an item was bought in good faith. I work with them and have seen quite a few stolen itemstraced back to the actual thief and purchaser was not charged.

That's why I insist on ID at FTF deals especially guns. I will speak for Larue County only.:dude:I believe it to be so in Nelson and Bullet county also...though I won't vouch for that.:exclaim:

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This is a bill of sale I've seen suggested on different forums. I've edited a few things, and feel free to do the same. (I am not a lawyer.)

Bill of Sale
Transfer of Firearm Ownership

For $______ received, I, _____________________(seller), have sold to _________________________________(buyer) a _____________________ (firearm description) with Serial # ____________________________, including the following accessories:




The seller represents that the firearm(s) and accessories are not stolen, and that he/she can lawfully possess and sell firearms. If it can be shown now or in the future that the firearm(s) and accessories were stolen prior to the date of sale listed below, the seller will give the buyer a full refund for return of the firearm(s) and all accessories.

The firearms(s) and accessories are sold as-is.
No warranty is expressed or implied by the Seller.
Seller assumes no responsibility after transfer of ownership has taken place.
Seller assumes no responsibility of any/all aftermarket parts.
Seller assumes no responsibility of any/all original equipment parts.

Seller specifically disclaims all responsibility for consequential and/or incidental damages or any other losses arising from the use of said firearm(s) and accessories.

Buyer agrees to the terms and conditions set forth and listed on this document, and acknowledges that he has received a true copy of this Bill of Sale/Transfer of Ownership and certifies that he/she can legally purchase and possess a firearm. Buyer acknowledges and understands that he will read the Owner’s Manual. Buyer agrees that it will be his responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place to adjust, check, and follow all instructions as outlined in the Owner’s Manual.

Buyer signature: _____________________________
Address:____________________________
Date:_________________________

Seller signature: ______________________________
Address: ____________________________
Date:_________________________

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TheMrMitch wrote:

OK folks. Gotta quit buying anything unless in Larue County where the Sheriff and Judge WILL allow you to prove an item was bought in good faith. I work with them and have seen quite a few stolen itemstraced back to the actual thief and purchaser was not charged.

That's why I insist on ID at FTF deals especially guns. I will speak for Larue County only.:dude:I believe it to be so in Nelson and Bullet county also...though I won't vouch for that.:exclaim:

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The sheriff and the judge have no say-so in the matter. It's the Commonwealth/county attorney that has all, and I mean ALL the say-so in this situation. I can't imagine a sheriff telling the Commonwealth Attorney that a felon is immune from prosecution because he got an ID from the other party during the commision of a felony.

The reason the KRS is written the way it was is so you can't say, "I didn't know it was stolen". Let's look at it logically.

Would the SELLER be immune from prosecution for selling a stolen firearmif he gave his ID to the BUYER at the time of the sale? Using your (and the local LEO) logic, he would be...

"Gee your honor, I didn't know the gun was stolen when I sold it. As a matter of fact, I was so confident that it wasn't stolen, that I even gave the buyer my ID at the time of the sale."

Let's put it another way. Would it let you off the hook if you got ID from a drug dealer before you bought crack? No. Why? Possession of both the crack and the stolen gun are illegal in and of themselves.

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The sheriff does so have a say in the matter. In Larue County. He can of course arrest anyone he wants, but THIS county sheriff and COUNTY JUDGE, who runs the County will usuallygive you leeway for purchasing something in good faith. I have seen much of this and am confident in what I purchase with IDs issued to me.

I speak only of the county I'm in. I really wasn't aware the rest of Kentucky was different.

A tidbit foranyone about this county: I purchased some land from a lady on a handshake deal, NO survey. Her son 'doesn't remember' the deal and tried to sell the land to someone else after she died. I provedI bought the land in good faith and I am the owner. Larue County. Now surveyed at seller's expense.


OOPS: "I can't imagine a sheriff telling the Commonwealth Attorney that a felon is immune from prosecution because he got an ID from the other party during the commision of a felony."

Don't know where this came in, I didn't evensuggest it. The statement is correct.

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TheMrMitch wrote:

The sheriff does so have a say in the matter. In Larue County. He can of course arrest anyone he wants, but THIS county sheriff and COUNTY JUDGE, who runs the County will usuallygive you leeway for purchasing something in good faith. I have seen much of this and am confident in what I purchase with IDs issued to me.

I speak only of the county I'm in. I really wasn't aware the rest of Kentucky was different.

A tidbit foranyone about this county: I purchased some land from a lady on a handshake deal, NO survey. Her son 'doesn't remember' the deal and tried to sell the land to someone else after she died. I provedI bought the land in good faith and I am the owner. Larue County. Now surveyed at seller's expense.


OOPS: "I can't imagine a sheriff telling the Commonwealth Attorney that a felon is immune from prosecution because he got an ID from the other party during the commision of a felony."

Don't know where this came in, I didn't evensuggest it. The statement is correct.

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I took your words and turned them into a scenario. And even if the sheriff says no charges in a case such as this, the Commonwealth Attorney could still file charges.

Lets put it this way...The CA finds out that some stolen guns were sold at a street festival. He goes back to the sheriff and asks about it. The sheriff tells the CA that no charges sill be filed, because the BUYERS GOT AN ID FROM THE SELLER? Are you telling me the CA answers to the sheriff where you live?

And if getting an ID from the seller does not make the buyer immune from prosecution, then what are saying it does?

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I see what you did...No problem.

The county I'm in is a 'Good Old Boy' county. The Chief Judge Exec runs the county and: Sheriff, Police, Corrections along with the Constables. I assure you, if a person has purchased something ingood faith and can produce proof, he/she will not be prosecuted.

Of course, I have stated 'usually' asthere are exceptions to every rule.

You are either friends with them or not is a'sorta' rule.When the Judge Exec swore me in, he told me to come into his courtroom.....I was carrying concealed and told him I couldn't. He said "You can now"! Very informal....see what I mean now?

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TheMrMitch wrote:
The county I'm in is a 'Good Old Boy' county. The Chief Judge Exec runs the county and: Sheriff, Police, Corrections along with the Constables. I assure you, if a person has purchased something in good faith and can produce proof, he/she will not be prosecuted.
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Ok, now you got my attention on this one.

First off, I agree with the notion of getting a signed receipt with as much information from the seller as possible. It won't guarantee that you have nothing to fear, but likely will go a long way in absolving you from any serious problem . . . as long as you truly are unaware of the status of a stolen weapon. I really like the draft receipt D_Fence provides!

Now, a County Judge Executive (elected county-wide) is chief administrator (not a judicial position) of the county government. However, the County Attorney (elected county-wide, also) does not "report to" the County Judge Executive. It is the County Attorney who makes a decision to prosecute District Court cases -- and possession of a stolen firearm most likely would fall in this category . . . unless it is transferred to Circuit Court (and the local Commonwealth Attorney) because of its use in a felony. While there may be close relationships among the political players in any particular county, let's not fall into any sort of notion that a County Judge Executive "runs" the entire county. That dog just won't hunt! To learn more about the County Attorney, check out: http://www.kcaa.info/

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OK...Just come to Larue and look around. The CA cannot prosecute if no arrest is made. Maybe that's the phrase I've been looking for. That dog does hunt.

Don't know any other way to put it.

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TheMrMitch wrote:

OK...Just come to Larue and look around. The CA cannot prosecute if no arrest is made. Maybe that's the  phrase I've been looking for. That dog does hunt.

Don't know any other way to put it.

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I guess this is the dog days of Fall!