The Next Year, Gun-Wise

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

As to knowing if the order to fire on American citizens is legal or not. No thought required, it is totally illegal under the Constitution and the UCMJ.

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I am familiar with both, but don't recall any such thing in either. Please offer a cite on what section or article includes such prohibitions.

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thebastidge wrote:

Point taken about Red Dawn. My point still stands.

As for your other point, you are entirely incorrect.

"Against all enemies, foreign and domestic..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_enlistment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Uniformed_Services_Oath_of_Office

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Well first I took an Oath of Enlistment many years ago and I don't remember swearing to defend he government against anything. I do remember swearing to do so for the Constitution. So how am I entirely wrong?

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

Well first I took an Oath of Enlistment many years ago and I don't remember swearing to defend he government against anything. I do remember swearing to do so for the Constitution. So how am I entirely wrong

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"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. That I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

You swear to uphold the Constitution, and also to obey the orders of the President and those appointed above you (whom the President can delegate his powers to per the UCMJ).

Where it gets tricky is that neither the Constitution nor the UCMJ flat out prohibit acting on US soil or against US citizens. The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits federal military from performing local law enforcement actions BUT since National Guard units are considered "State Militia" they could be used. Additionally, if any insurrection/rebellion got started it could easily be considered an act of Terrorism and fall outside "local" law enforcement issues and have federal troops (ie Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines) put into service.

Defying a unlawful order is easier said than done. Most line troops would not even have access to the necessary information to determine if the order was not lawful. Under article 94 of the UCMJ, Mutiny, sedition, and treason are all pretty serious offenses and can punished by death. Military folks are required to do what they can to stop such acts and if they don't and don't notify their commanders, they can be punished by death as well.

I am sure there would be many who would desert, refuse, etc. but it would be a real crap shoot and probably vary widely between units and branches of service.

Is there a very real chance of a civil war, revolution, etc. happening? I don't think so. At least not successfully. The majority of folks in this country don't have the initiative or where-with-all to put forth the necessary effort for a civil war. The deck is stacked pretty well against such a thing happening (at least not with outside help) due to restrictions on weapons, current laws, etc.

Herein lies the problem, if you are going to take a shot at it, you really HAVE to win. Otherwise your "rebellion" is labeled as terrorism, treason, etc. It's not fair, but the people in charge get to make the rules. If you don't successfully oust the powers that be, you will be a criminal.

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911Boss wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Well first I took an Oath of Enlistment many years ago and I don't remember swearing to defend he government against anything. I do remember swearing to do so for the Constitution. So how am I entirely wrong

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"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. That I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

You swear to uphold the Constitution, and also to obey the orders of the President and those appointed above you (whom the President can delegate his powers to per the UCMJ).

Where it gets tricky is that neither the Constitution nor the UCMJ flat out prohibit acting on US soil or against US citizens. The Posse Comitatus Act

Defying a unlawful order is easier said than done. Most line troops would not even have access t the necessary information to determine if the order was not lawful. Under article 94 of the UCMJ, prohibits federal military from performing local law enforcement actions BUT since National Guard units are considered "State Militia" they could be used. Additionally, if any insurrection/rebellion got started it could easily be considered an act of Terrorism and fall outside "local"law enforcement issues and have federal troops (ie Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines) put into service.Mutiny, sedition, and treason are all pretty serious offenses and can punished by death. Military folks are required to do what they can to stop such acts and if they don't and don't notify their commanders, they can be punished by death as well.

I am sure there would be many who would desert, refuse, etc. but it would be a real crap shoot and probably vary widely between units and branches of service.

Is there a very real chance of a civil war, revolution, etc. happening? I don't think so. At least not successfully. The majority of folks in this country don't have the initiative or where-with-all to put forth the necessary effort for a civil war. The deck is stacked pretty well against such a thing happening (at least not with outside help) due to restrictions on weapons, current laws, etc.

Herein lies the problem, if you are going to take a shot at it, you really HAVE to win. Otherwise your "rebellion" is labeled as terrorism, treason, etc. It's not fair, but the people in charge get to make the rules. If you don't successfully oust the powers that be, you will be a criminal.

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Legal orders only. You are not required to follow illegal orders. Federal troops are not allowed to fire on US citizens. Federal troops are notto to operate in the US as law enforcement. Congress has made a few exceptions but it requires and act of Congress and the Pres can't do it on his own.

Were not the Kent State National Guard troops operating under their governor's orders and not federalized?

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"Federal troops are not allowed to fire on US citizens."

Again, you are absolutely wrong. Try driving your car at high speed through the main gate of any military base.

The Posse Comitatus act doesn't apply to anything except using Federal Troops for law enforcement. Think of the Civil War, fer ****s sake. Those were all American citizens, raising rebellion.

"Well first I took an Oath of Enlistment many years ago and I don't remember swearing to defend he government against anything. I do remember swearing to do so for the Constitution. So how am I entirely wrong?"

The mind boggles at your willfulignorance, man. Straw man argument. I didn't say anything about defending the government. I said you swear an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. This clearly means defending against American Citizens if they are enemies of the Constitution- i.e. raising armed insurrection for one thing. I took exception, precisely and clearly, with your assertion that an order to fire on American citizens was always and 100% clearly illegal, unconstitutional, and against the UCMJ. (which is just ridiculous to anyone who even knows what the UCMJ is.)

Admit you're wrong, just once. It might get people to slack up on you for a bit before yougo back to being your typical ignorant, loudmouthed, obnoxious self.

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thebastidge wrote:

"Federal troops are not allowed to fire on US citizens."

Again, you are absolutely wrong. Try driving your car at high speed through the main gate of any military base.

The Posse Comitatus act doesn't apply to anything except using Federal Troops for law enforcement. Think of the Civil War, fer ****s sake. Those were all American citizens, raising rebellion.

"Well first I took an Oath of Enlistment many years ago and I don't remember swearing to defend he government against anything. I do remember swearing to do so for the Constitution. So how am I entirely wrong?"

The mind boggles at your willfulignorance, man. Straw man argument. I didn't say anything about defending the government. I said you swear an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. This clearly means defending against American Citizens if they are enemies of the Constitution- i.e. raising armed insurrection for one thing. I took exception, precisely and clearly, with your assertion that an order to fire on American citizens was always and 100% clearly illegal, unconstitutional, and against the UCMJ. (which is just ridiculous to anyone who even knows what the UCMJ is.)

Admit you're wrong, just once. It might get people to slack up on you for a bit before yougo back to being your typical ignorant, loudmouthed, obnoxious self.

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How can raising armed rebellion against the corrupt and Constitution violating govenment be un-Constitutional since that is the exact document the gives us the power to do so? Seems to me you think the government is following the Constitution, news flash it is NOT!

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d0od wrote:

The Patriot Act traded liberty for security, liberty we will never get back.

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I hear this a lot. Could you please give us three or four examples of liberties that you have lost due to passage of the patriot act? Please be specific and do not generalize.

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I agree with that.So far in all honesty I haven't noticed anything I have lost since passage of the Patriot act.I still worry about the push by some to abandone the 2nd ammendment.I have heard some that would be considered Liberals state that the 2A in obsolete and we should voluntarily give it up.That will be some anti's new sale's pitch.

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I agree with that.So far in all honesty I haven't noticed anything I have lost since passage of the Patriot act.I still worry about the push by some to abandone the 2nd ammendment.I have heard some that would be considered Liberals state that the 2A in obsolete and we should voluntarily give it up.That will be some anti's new sale's pitch.

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I understand why the patriot act was put in place, my contention with it is that it allows the government to "spy" on US citizens. Primarily that it allows the FBI to search telephone, email and financial records without a court order. I have nothing to hide so personally I cant say how it affected me. My worry is that it will be used against people that are not terrorists but could be perceived as a threat by the people in power. Once liberties are taken they will not be given up easily. It is our government, of the people for the people. I do not spy on my boss, it is his company. To say something cliche, it is a slippery slope. Next is surveillance cameras on every street corner. Maybe I have just watched to much TV, but I don't think so.

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DEROS72 wrote:

I agree with that.So far in all honesty I haven't noticed anything I have lost since passage of the Patriot act.I still worry about the push by some to abandone the 2nd ammendment.I have heard some that would be considered Liberals state that the 2A in obsolete and we should voluntarily give it up.That will be some anti's new sale's pitch.

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It is a good thing then that to Ratify an amendment you need a 3/4 majority of the STATES (In either amendment convention or the legislature of the States) This means that the States would have to put a VOTE in to their populous and they would have to get at least 51% of the people to agree... (this is just a theory I am surmising)

We never lost any liberties as part of the Patriot Act, we gained somewhat of a blanket protection against terrorists, albeit a dumb one that only works if used properly and by smart individuals. You only have to worry about the Patriot Act if you are up to NO good...

As to the USE of American Troops against AMERICAN citizens, there are no CLAUSES or restrictions on it's use against Americans... The actual soldiers may have a problem but there is no restriction on it. If say for example California wanted to become a free state (a country) and they then took up arms to defend their "right" (i use that word very loosely here) then we would bring in the USMARINES to kick their ass... If a terrorist group (homegrown w. americans as their base) were to start threatening people the FBI would then be involved, if this group is big enough and has enough weapons the FBI will then call the Army/Marines to kick their ass...

All military in the US is sworn to protect two things, the constitution and the president... However becasue of certain rules the US military would have to OBEY Congress BEFORE they Obey the President AND if as Americans we see fit to OVERTHROW our congress by a majority (be it by whatever means) then the US military would be sworn to us... US citizens are the constitution of the United States... we are what makes it work, we can make it stop working; and we don't even have to be violent about it all we have to do is vote the retards out of office. We can get them impeached we can do SOOOOO MANY things before we have to pick up arms and fight that even talking about all out insurrection is just ridiculous.

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d0od wrote:

I understand why the patriot act was put in place, my contention with it is that it allows the government to "spy" on US citizens. Primarily that it allows the FBI to search telephone, email and financial records without a court order. I have nothing to hide so personally I cant say how it affected me. My worry is that it will be used against people that are not terrorists but could be perceived as a threat by the people in power. Once liberties are taken they will not be given up easily. It is our government, of the people for the people. I do not spy on my boss, it is his company. To say something cliche, it is a slippery slope. Next is surveillance cameras on every street corner. Maybe I have just watched to much TV, but I don't think so.

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what you haven't seen the camera in your toilet bowl? tssk tssk let me go get a tin foil hat for you... I think I have a spare

*sarcasm off lol*

When i first heard of the Patriot Act i was like "OMG WTF EVILZZZZZZ!!!!!111oneoneone111!!!" However I decided after I calmed down and took some ritalin that I would read up on it, I called up my local fed office and asked if it was possible to get a copy of the whole thing (it's fairly long) after about two weeks of reading through it I realized that a lot of people have unsubstantiated thoughts about the patriot act... It's just another form of information gathering; information that if used for any other purpose that to track and arrest terrorists is not able to be used for ANY other purpouse... it would essentially be an ilegal search/seizure and it would get thrown out in court...

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shakul wrote

what you haven't seen the camera in your toilet bowl? tssk tssk let me go get a tin foil hat for you... I think I have a spare

*sarcasm off lol*

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I'm on septic so I don't have to worry about them getting in that way. :celebrate

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You only have to worry about the Patriot Act if you are up to NO good...

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I see. Since you are clearly a good person with nothing to hide, why don't you post your full name, home & work addresses, and telephone numbers here in the forum? While you're at it, let's have a description of your vehicles and their license plate numbers... and maybe a copy of last month's phone bill.

If you aren't doing anything wrong, surely you won't object to this request. Perhaps my LEO buddy can come by and take a look around your house, too. You know, just to make sure you're really one of the good guys.

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information that if used for any other purpose that to track and arrest terrorists is not able to be used for ANY other purpouse...

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Pray tell, what controls are in place that make you so positive this information can never be used for any other purpose? As far as I can tell, a large number of our fellow citizens who happen to work for the government now have unfettered access to our private information. Do you really think there isn't a single bad apple amongst them? There are a million different reasons why these people might illegally abuse their powers. Off the top of my head:

- Tracking someone who you suspect is cheating with your spouse or the spouse of a frien or family member.
- Tracking someone you don't like, for whatever reason.
- Digging up dirt on your rivals, coworkers of friends & family, or anyone else just because you're suspicious about them.
- Setting someone else up to take the fall for a crime.
- Finding and threatening that guy in the red sedan who cut you off on the freeway.
- Extortion or other money schemes in all of their various forms.

I would submit that the vast majority of the population would abuse such powers given the opportunity. If you thought some a$$hole was sleeping with your wife, 9 in 10 men would tap his phones and track him down and justify it based on his "crime."

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tricityguy wrote:

information that if used for any other purpose that to track and arrest terrorists is not able to be used for ANY other purpouse...

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Pray tell, what controls are in place that make you so positive this information can never be used for any other purpose? As far as I can tell, a large number of our fellow citizens who happen to work for the government now have unfettered access to our private information. Do you really think there isn't a single bad apple amongst them? There are a million different reasons why these people might illegally abuse their powers. Off the top of my head:

- Tracking someone who you suspect is cheating with your spouse or the spouse of a frien or family member.
- Tracking someone you don't like, for whatever reason.
- Digging up dirt on your rivals, coworkers of friends & family, or anyone else just because you're suspicious about them.
- Setting someone else up to take the fall for a crime.
- Finding and threatening that guy in the red sedan who cut you off on the freeway.
- Extortion or other money schemes in all of their various forms.

I would submit that the vast majority of the population would abuse such powers given the opportunity. If you thought some a$$hole was sleeping with your wife, 9 in 10 men would tap his phones and track him down and justify it based on his "crime."

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You're talking about doing something ILEGAL which with or WITHOUT patriot act is against the law... You can say the same thing about gun ownership... What stops us from shooting someone? The LAW. bad guys with guns don't care what the law says, they will commit their crimes anyways. So saying that "Oh what stops people from doing this and that" well nothing stops them except for the fact that most people are law abiding citizens. And any information they gather for any purpose which is it's NON INTENDED use is against the law.

And if you want to continue following that logic, what is to stop me from going to the yellowpages and finidng someones phone number, with which I can then go to any number of websites and get a background check on that number. Hell with just a name and a city I can probably find the person I'm looking for and all the information pertaining to them.

My point is that there is already a safeguard in place, the same safeguard on NICS and it's called a law, in this case the wording of the patriot act itself is such that it is only to be used in...

From the actual patriot act:

SHORT TITLE.—This Act may be cited as the ‘‘Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT ACT) Act of 2001’

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SEC. 2. CONSTRUCTION; SEVERABILITY. Any provision of this Act held to be invalid or unenforceable by its terms, or as applied to any person or circumstance, shall be construed so as to give it the maximum effect permitted by law, unless such holding shall be one of utter invalidity or unenforceability, in which event such provision shall be deemed severable from this Act and shall not affect the remainder thereof or the application of such provision to other persons not similarly situated or to other, dissimilar circumstances.

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So in other words you need to be either a victim of a terrorist attack (Patriot act covers compensation and such) or a Translator (patriot act covers expedited employment for purposes of translators) or into Computer Fraud (also covered by the patriot act) or a TERRORIST/Enemy COmbatant... I could go on but there is only so much room...

Anyways Yes you are right there is nothing from stoping people from doing things but that is the same thing in every other position; there is nothing stoping anyone from doing anything except for the law.

Oh and no I wouldn't put a wire tap, I'd follow her until I found out without a reasonable doubt that she was cheating on me, then I would confront her, if she lies then there is no knowing what else she has lied about in which case I will hand her a glad bag tell her to get her stuff and gtfo... then I'll contact a lawyer and deal with it from there...

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You're talking about doing something ILEGAL which with or WITHOUT patriot act is against the law...

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Except, without the Patriot Act, the processes that enable these abuses would not be in place. By greatly expanding the ability of certain government workers to spy on us, we greatly increase the abuse potential. It's the age old problem of, "Who watches the watchers?"

The Patriot Act has already been abused and the FBI tried to cover it up with more abuses, and this is only one of many revelations. Google "Patriot Act Abuses" and your eyes will be opened to the mess that is this legislation.

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tricityguy wrote:

You're talking about doing something ILEGAL which with or WITHOUT patriot act is against the law...

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Except, without the Patriot Act, the processes that enable these abuses would not be in place. By greatly expanding the ability of certain government workers to spy on us, we greatly increase the abuse potential. It's the age old problem of, "Who watches the watchers?"

The Patriot Act has already been abused and the FBI tried to cover it up with more abuses, and this is only one of many revelations. Google "Patriot Act Abuses" and your eyes will be opened to the mess that is this legislation.

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From the Wired article you linked...

Additionally, some of those retroactive NSLs sought records that the FBI was not authorized to obtain, and failed to explain -- as required by policy -- what investigation the records pertained to. Fine found that all were "issued in violation of internal FBI policy."

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Btw it's called the Office of Professional Responsibility

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Well today I can't hate the Gov.Too much .I Owed thousands in back taxes and today The IRS declared me uncollectible and SSI paid off a huge back child support debtI had without deducting from my check.So Todayour Government is my new best friend.



:celebrate

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The statist Puerto Rican is starting to push my buttons. Puerto Ricans must sure love their country's state of affairs, because they seem very pleased with our government. Fools.