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Thread: How can we get Open Carrying more widely accepted?

  1. #1
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    I've read some of the discussion on a few news websites and other places regarding Open Carry, and wonder if we're doing the right thing. It seems many people, law enforcement, judges, and even gun owners think OC is a bad idea because either A) It disturbs them, or B) It disturbs other people.

    I've seen the arguments that those that OC at akidssoccer game/the mall/a school/church/anywhere publiclack Common Sensetm, are just Looking For Attentiontm, or even Just Plain Nutstm.

    WE know we're not any of those things. We each have our own reasons, often most of them co-incide with other OCers, and make total sense to us. We've got our witty comebacks why we're carrying a gun at all (a cop is too heavy!), our legitimate issues for OCing (It's too HOT to CC!),our political agenda (A right unexercised is lost!), and other reasons.

    Some of us DO encounter the curious citizens, and the ignorant ones we get opportunity to educate. Others get the unfortunate experience of run-ins with freaking-out know-it-alls who believe it can't POSSIBLY be legal to OC a REAL LOADED GUN, won't STHUand won't listen to reason (even worse when it's a cop )

    So what's the problem? I think the majority of the public believes it's OK for Law-Abiding people to carry a gun for protection at least some of the time, otherwise I don't think we'd have most of the states licensing CCW in one form or another.

    I think Open Carry has much less public support, because of some of the blatently ignorant ideas out there. "Guns don't belong around kids!" "Guys Open Carry just because it makes them feel like a MAN (or they're compensating)!" "What is this, the Wild West?" "OCers are just looking for attention!" "It's disrespectful of others!" "The OCer will get shot first!"

    So what can we do to change these misconceptions?

    I've only been following the Open Carry movement for about 8 months now, and I think I'm seeing a change in the amount of press OC is getting, but I'm not sure whether to frown or cheer. For example,the press Meleanie Hain has gotten with her battle. Some articles seem positive, others seem rather editoralized to show the author's anti-gun slant. Comments (on those that allow online comments) seem split as well, with most reader comments chiming in solidly favorable toher right to OC, while others spew illogical hoplophobe lunacy.

    We're always going to have the anti-gun nuts hellbent on the destruction of our rights, but what about the ones that are just ignorant? "I'm a gun owner/hunter/NRA member/gun collector , but I think she needs to just conceal it so she doesn't scare people/scare kids/call attention to herself/get mugged for her gun."

    So here's my question to all of you, especially those who've been involved in Open Carry longer than I:

    Are OC get togethers really doing any good? Is the media attention helping or hurting our cause? is public opinion swaying for or against us?

    And what can we do to push Open Carry further in the public eye, or is what we're doing enough? Do we need MORE OC get togethers? MORE letters to the Editor of our local papers?

    ...Fire away!...
    ...Orygunner...

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    I think its a gradual thing.┬*┬*We can't expect people to accept it overnight.┬*┬*Many people won't accept it and nothing you can do will change their mind.

    Over time though, if people┬*are seen regularly carrying people will get used to it. Also, by being polite around people you may leave them with a positive impression. I think this is the best way to success.


    I can't see open carrying hurting the open carry cause.┬* If people are too afraid to exercise their rights in fear that doing so will cause them to lose them then they might as well have already lost them.

    If open carry disturbs people that is just too bad for them.┬*Everything offends someone.

    I think that there are more people who worry that it will bother other people than there are people who are actually bothered by it.

    I'm not a big fan of the "a cop is too heavy" thing.┬*I see it more about taking responsibility for one's own safety.┬* Police are not responsible for the safety of anyone, and┬*chances are they won't be around when you need them either.┬* I'd much rather have a gun on my hip than a cop following me around anyway.┬*┬* I'd rather not rely on the government to do things I can do for myself.┬*

    When someone tells me "It's not the wild west" it is somewhat tempting though to say "Yes it is!"


    In the case of Hain, I think media or not it helped the cause.┬* If police are shown that they cannot get away with abusing their power they will be less willing to do so.┬*┬*┬* Probably even negative media though┬*helps the cause.┬*┬*┬*If they see an article, even a negative one, they just might think it through themselves.┬* And if we can leave countering arguments it is even better.

    Just as important as letters to editors are letters to congressmen to improve the laws!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Ignoring for the moment the extremely worn out, trite expresions on both sides of this fence.

    The daily benefit that we accomplish when OCing without major negative event is a gradual wearing away of the stone of resistance. It is this daily educational program that leads to eventual, quiet acceptance by those with whom we have indirect contact. Individuals who directly interact with us offer an opportunity for even greater positive impact.

    The more of us there are the greater the return. The more we are seen and accepted in growing numbers - well you can see where I going with this. Just look at the "Hot Topics" to see how the movement is growing exponentially. What other type of grass roots effort is multiplying so rapildy?

    Then there is the interaction in which but a few want to be personally envolved. The quiet night out at a restaurant that suddenly has you surrounded by 7 officers. The family outing at the shore that ends in an arrest of one and intimidation and abuse of the others. These, while surely not sought out, offer the largest, quantum leaps forward in our quest for our rights.

    Do not succumb to the siren's song - "think of the children" or "be reasonable."

    I am thinking of the children. I am being reasonable. I want all of them and us to enjoy the freedom to live in a free society without fear - I fight for that right everyday by simply going about my business quietly..........and by going to Norfolk as many times as it takes.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.ö Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    We have recent generations who have no connection with the practical application of the 2a. I even grew up in a hunting houseold and watched westerns on t.v. Now you have super wal-mart and winco and the only gun related shows are mostly military based or police-centric. Every officer who finds a weapon in a civilians home regardless of their guilt or not acts as if they have found proof positive of their guilt. Holding the gun as if it is extremely hot.. evil even...

    Re-educating the masses and the latest generations of ignorant zombielike citizens will be our task. To wear a sidearm proudly and in prominent position is a statement as well as a personel defense policy. I consider it a useful tool in the safety of friends and family but a statement to those would be tyrants that it would be difficult to take complete control over the masses.

    The vibe I get from those who are anti gun has to do with a fear of the real world. They would prefer to be blind to the need for personal protection.. the police, military and government in general are here to protect us.. we should't have to do it ourselves.. just enter the matrix and don't worry, we will control reality for you.. now just sit back, relax and we will drain you like an eveready.. er I mean protect you.



    Uh oh.. after midnite.. gotta go!

    J

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    I don't believe the OC get togethers are doing any harm and may at least serve to point out the legality of OC. Certainly, we haven't done anything to directly cause alarm, nor have there been any of the "tragic outcomes" the antis always warn against. Even the folks who have no interest in the gun debate recall that the lefties predicted bloodbaths with the passage of every CCW law, and none of their cassandra-like prophesies came true. I suspect most of the same people are becoming desensitized by OC since we typically behave in a sane, sober and respectable way, and cause no problems. One of our recent members brought his wife to one of our dinners, after which she said to him that she hadn't expected it to be as good as it was, and we just seemed "so normal". As those types of experiences multiply, we can expect a softening of opinion in most reasonable people. We'll never get the rabid, irrational hoplophobes on board, but they are a splinter group and largely irrelevant. OC now is about where CC was in the late 1980's, and while we still have a long way to go, I'm encouraged by the progress.

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    I think, as has been stated, that every OC is a small victory in the long run. But, you have a good point. Any time one of us stands still and looks around it can seem quite disheartening, almost as if no progress is being made. I think what is needed is even more public exposure such as the OC events of picking up trash at local parks etc. and maybe even some local pro carry ads around the country (carefully worded of course). The problem is all of this requires time and effort and money and many of us just don't have much time (even if we have some money we could donate to the cause). I keep waiting to find out about a local (for me) OC event that I can attend but have not seen one yet (central KY). On the flip side I do not have the time to organize one myself, at least not yet.

    In the mean time many of us do what little we can and that might just be the occassional OC, many times completely without incident.

    I'd really like to see a nationally organized OC day where we could really get some united numbers out and about to help flesh out the true numbers of citizens who OC. Maybe even some kind of symbol for those who support 2A/RKBA/CC/OC but do so without owning a firearm (ribbon with a red/white/blue gun on it? Maybe a t-shirt people could wear either carrying or not).

    I say at the least keep on keeping on.

    Cy

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The growth and/or success of the OC movement is perhaps not best measured by how many actual OCers one sees in a day.

    I think a better standard might be how little attention is vocused on that daily routine by others. It is not so much what you see/hear in the media; it has become how little. At least that is the case in most of Virginia.

    When the paths of life cross and an ill guided enforcement officer pushes the envelope of poor judgement, that the insuing court decision greatly benefits us is a fait accompli.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.ö Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot makes a good point, that the long term goal is to just simply be able to exercise our rights without it being a big deal on any front. I just wonder if slow and sure will win the race or just end up being a slow path to no-where? Sometimes I feel like wearing a shirt that says "No, I'm not a cop or security guard or in the military. Open carry of a firearm is legal in <insert state here>! Feel free to exercise your right to protect yourself and your family. If you don't exercise your rights you WILL lose them and may never get them back. When seconds count the police are just minutes away! Your right to feel uneasy around my gun does not over-ride my right to protect myself...or you."

    OK, the t-shirt is a bit long winded but you get my point.

    Cy

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    I am probably going to get drilled for this but one of the biggest things to me is for anyone who OC's is to do it as a natural thing and not try to make a point of it. If someone makes a comment about it don't make a big deal about it rather act like you are surprised that they don't know it is legal. For instance if someone asks you why you carry don't come off as a smart alec with some cute remark but rather be honest and don't start trying to proclaim your 2A rights then and there.

    Are you carrying to defend yourself or carrying as a protest? I am afraid that if you are walking around with a .44 mag strapped to your thigh you may do more to scare people and turn them off than to educate them. I know this goes against the grain of many but if you are dressed like a gang banger or biker carrying a large gun you aren't going to win over many soccer moms. However in the case of the soccer mom in PA can go a long way to educate the public.

    I think the OP is correct, at least around here, that the majority of people are not against carrying and that includes women and LEO. However they are against someone showing off or playing with a gun. One fact that is hard to argue with is that it would be hard to find anyone around here that doesn't know someone that has been killed with a gun either intentionally or unintentionally. The rare goof-with-a-gun scenario won't work, people consider it more the rule than the exception.

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    Some so-called "Pro-Gun" "Anti-OC" people argue that OCing "hurts" gun rights and that the nutcases like the soccer mom, the group OCing to the zoo in Idaho, and others lacking "Common sense" are going to get people hollering that we need gun laws to stop this OC business...

    *cue crickets chirping*

    Funny, I don't hear any legislators in any state trying to pass more gun laws because of increased number of people Open Carrying. In fact, quite the opposite with the OC push in the Non-OC states like Texas.

    I think some OC advocates are scared other OCers are going to push it too far and somehow something's going destroy the whole OC movement:

    • Don't wear a T-Shirt advertising that you OC, it will call unwanted attention!
    • Just try to blend in as a regular person, except you're wearing a gun.
    • Don't stand up in a restaurant and announce your group is OCing!
    • If you shove it in people's faces you're going to screw it up for the rest of us!
    • Dress nice and don't look like a gangbanger or a skinhead when you OC!
    • Don't OC a .44 Mag or Desert Eagle! That's rediculous!

    When Pro-OC people write/sayany of these things, it sounds like the same"lack of common sense" argument that the anti-OC people use to discourage us from OCing. There's some that would have said OCing to a kids' soccer game was just calling unwanted attention that the OC movement didn't need, but has it really caused any harm? It's sure gotten ME thinking about OCing to my kids' Little League games next spring...

    Can doing any of these things REALLY hurt the movement? Or are we just being paranoid? Is there any documented proof of pushing too far?

    Look at the Gay Rights movement that some choose to compare OC to. They compare "Advertising" OC to two gay people making out in public. "People are going to be offended! We can't stand up and announce our OC dinner group's intentions to the whole restaurant!"

    Why not? There's some people don't want to see it, but I believe there's a whole lot LESS people going to be offended at a person or group openly advertising OC than if the person or group were openly advertising their sexual orientation.

    It makes our intentions and our movement clear. Otherwise, some people just see the gun and assume we're Law Enforcement, and we don't make a bit of progress.

    ...Orygunner...


    Edited for a little bit o' clarification.


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Frankly, I think the conversation/posts here are making more unnecessary noise about OCing that it requires. We talk about it, worry about it and masticate it to death. There is no manna that will miraclously feed the masses.

    We put the wrong principle first.

    We are first citizens - a great melting pot of citizens - going about our daily lives, working, playing, eating et al. Whether you wear a t-shirt or an oxford button down, live in the city or on a farm, are student or an attorney matters but little. What does matter is that you are a good citizen.

    Choosing to accept personal responsibility for our own safety by OCing or CCing is secondary to the first principle of being a good citizen. We do not insist that everyone emulate us and conversely others have no business attempting to force us to embrace their personal position. A good citizen should understand this.

    I hope that makes me a good citizen who happens to carry a 1911. If that bothers you too much, then maybe you live in the wrong country. The law of our land virtually encourages such personal responsibility - it certainly allows it.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.ö Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    PT111 wrote:
    I am probably going to get drilled for this but one of the biggest things to me is for anyone who OC's is to do it as a natural thing and not try to make a point of it. If someone makes a comment about it don't make a big deal about it rather act like you are surprised that they don't know it is legal. For instance if someone asks you why you carry don't come off as a smart alec with some cute remark but rather be honest and don't start trying to proclaim your 2A rights then and there.

    Are you carrying to defend yourself or carrying as a protest? I am afraid that if you are walking around with a .44 mag strapped to your thigh you may do more to scare people and turn them off than to educate them. I know this goes against the grain of many but if you are dressed like a gang banger or biker carrying a large gun you aren't going to win over many soccer moms. However in the case of the soccer mom in PA can go a long way to educate the public.

    I think the OP is correct, at least around here, that the majority of people are not against carrying and that includes women and LEO. However they are against someone showing off or playing with a gun. One fact that is hard to argue with is that it would be hard to find anyone around here that doesn't know someone that has been killed with a gun either intentionally or unintentionally. The rare goof-with-a-gun scenario won't work, people consider it more the rule than the exception.
    Shock - no one is taking you to task for your early remarks and I won't either. While I do not concur 100%, there are nuggets to be found.

    What I do take exception to is the extreme over playing of the fear card. Pure emotionalism not supported by facts.

    It is a fact that South Carolina only lags behind Washington D.C. in violent crime.
    see http://tinyurl.com/5ksb56 but these numbers translate to .788% of the population regarding all violent crimes.

    Facts: The 2007 murder rate of 352 with a population of 4,407,709 yields an infinitesimally small per centage. http://tinyurl.com/6kd1qc8 Not all of these were gun related. So when you say that it is hard to find anyone that doesn't know someone killed with a gun, you exaggerate to the point of absurdity. You enflame and misuse your knowledge or lack thereof. You play on emotionalism not facts.

    Apparently either the murder rate is radically under reported or a majority of the 4.4 million people all know each other. It might be hard to find someone that hasn't heard of a sensational crime - example here in my home state, the Va. Tech tragedy - but to claim that most of us know a victim....Please! It is people like you that perpetuate such myths.

    It is a rare scenario, the exception to the rule - that is fact.

    Fortunately it appears that a majority of your state does not seem to agree with you as South Caolina is moving in the right direction regarding recent changes in the carry laws/reciprocity.

    You may be seated.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.ö Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    In my opinion, the big problem is that all of the 2nd Amendment advocates are not really that. We're all so divided with one side or the other fighting over this or that.

    When I attended a CCW course earlier this month, I was told that OC was only considered legal in rural areas in my state and that "all municipalities have banned the practice" - yet I can only find three major areas that have laws against it. These kinds of myths and lies need to be eradicated before we'll start seeing massive leaps in progress.

    Let's also consider that in many states, there are still all kinds of laws prohibiting where you can carry. In my state it's almost impossible to go someplace without seeing a gunbuster sign (they do carry weight in KS, unlike other states). The places where I feel I'd need my sidearm the most are the areas that prohibit firearms entirely!

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    Grapeshot - When I say that most people know someone who was killed with a gun I specifically said intentional or unintentional. That includes accidents, suicides and violent crimes. I personally can name at least 9 different friends/relatives that were killed with a gun.Some were accidents, some suicides and at leasttwo a murder for hire. Still they were all killed with a gun. A close friend of mine took his .357 and blew his brains out one morning in his garage. Another glose friend was killed when his father dropped his .22 while showing it off. My cousin was killed by two .32 bullets in the back of his head in a murder for hire deal that wound up on "Tales of the FBI". A classmate was killed in a hunting accident while we were in high school. The list goes on but they were all killed with a gun.

    I stand by my statement and if you don't know someone personally that has been killed with a gun I would say you are lucky.

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    Two personal anecdotes do not data make. An Anony Mouse anecdote is datum not.

    I know of my next door neighbor Officer Steve Hiott of SC State Patrol killed. CLEO and his hate mongering can reside in Hades.

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    PT111 wrote:
    Grapeshot - When I say that most people know someone who was killed with a gun I specifically said intentional or unintentional.

    snipped...... annodotical comments

    I stand by my statement ........
    You provide scant empirical comments as "evidence." Since even a cursory attempt at providing documented facts would not have supported your premise, it is easily understood why you did not so. Such lack of attention to good practice demonstrates why the grade of F will not be considered for review. You should perhaps repeat the course at a later time.

    Following are a few facts. Included are intentional and unintentional deaths. For your own benefit you may desire to research further as enlightenment is its own reward.

    Violent death rate study http://tinyurl.com/6aczw6
    Type of incident: homicide - 25%, suicide - 56%, undetermined - 14%, other - 5%
    Method of death: firearm - 49%
    Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention National Violent Death Reporting System & published in April in the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report.

    It is patently obvious that the numbers and facts are not avalable to support your flawed thesis. Emotionalism and feelings are a poor substitute for facts. Perhaps another subject should be chosen.

    Yata hey


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.ö Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Anecdotal evidence may not make a solid argument, but it DOES sway people's opinions.

    Example: My Mother-in-law doesn't agree with carrying a gun in public, unless someone is engaged in outdoor type activities, like hunting, hiking, camping, going on a bike ride (we've got bike paths all over around here), etc. She sees no reason to carry in a restaurant, mall, store, church, etc. She thinks chances of needing the gun there are so low, I'll never need it in any of those places, so why carry?

    However, there was a cougar (mountain lion) prowling in her neighborhood a couple of years ago that was killed by a police officer, and lots of recent news articles about people being stalked by cougars. So if going on a bike ride, it's OK to carry because of cougars. :quirky

    Nobodyhas been actually attacked by a cougar in Oregon for about 4-6 years. But she's more concerned about 4 legged predators than the much more common 2 legged type that attack thousands of Oregonians every year.

    While anecdotal evidence does not make a solid argument and will not stand up in an intelligent debate, you can't discount the effect it can have on people's decisions.

    After all, how many of us on this forum started thinking about carryingbecause of a news article about someone getting attacked? A story from a friend or relative? In spite of the statistical evidence that chances of us being a victim are extremely slim?

    Obviously some of us didn't start carrying this way, but I know seeing news reports of attacks kept bringing me around to the idea of getting a CHL. Even though I never needed one before, and will still probably never need a gun, I now know better that it's a safety tool, and if I ever do need it, I damn well better have one. It's the "anecdotal evidence" that pushed me to investigate getting my CHL to begin with.

    ...Orygunner...





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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Since I have joined the open carry movement I have noticed lots of good come from it.

    1. It has become widely accepted by LEO's In utah for the most part.

    2. Citizen's really don't get alarmed when they see a gun on my hip even come up and ask questions about why I do it.

    As for the soccer mom in PA I applaud her efforts and support her all the way. I am glad that it got a lot of media and put the message out it is not against the law to OC In PA.


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    Orygunner wrote:

    After all, how many of us on this forum started thinking about carryingbecause of a news article about someone getting attacked? A story from a friend or relative? In spite of the statistical evidence that chances of us being a victim are extremely slim?

    Obviously some of us didn't start carrying this way, but I know seeing news reports of attacks kept bringing me around to the idea of getting a CHL. Even though I never needed one before, and will still probably never need a gun, I now know better that it's a safety tool, and if I ever do need it, I damn well better have one. It's the "anecdotal evidence" that pushed me to investigate getting my CHL to begin with.

    ...Orygunner...




    I saw a little 13 year old girl gunned down, that was when i really started to think about carrying.

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    I have never OC'd as any sort of 'statement'. This is the high plains desert... CC does not work well in these temps and altitude, particularly with a 1911-A1. Not having the weapon readily accessable is also a concern. Many newcomers and even 'natives' are ignorant of OC... particularly city dwellers. Many people just choose NOT to carry anything... That's OK with me too. I don't openly attract attention... other thanI don't dress like I just blew in from L.A. or Newark. (whereI would attract attention).

    'Had a guy from Michigan confide that: "I can't dress this way in Michigan... butI love this cowboy stuff." He and his wife are looking at properties in Cochise County. He was wearin' an SAA .45 w/o any fear of repercussion. 'Said he had a 9mm somethin' that he usually carried (Concealed) back home 'cause of the unwanted 'attention' he got. This fella was 66 years old.

    Only way to promote OC is to "OC". It's like wearin' pants... Just do it!

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    I agree they say where it all the time or not at all
    Zach
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    I agree that the way to do it day to day is to do it day to day. Unfortunately I can't daily due to local ordinances. But when I am in places where OC is legal, I almost always OC. I'll even switch from CC to OC when I get in one of those areas.

    I also agree with it not being a big deal and not making it a big deal. I pretty much carry my sidearm as casually as I carry my cell phone and wallet and don't have a lot of thought about any of them unless I am in a crowd, someone touches me unexpectedly or I need it. People around me tend to not make any deal about it I think mainly because I make no deal out of it. The more people see it, and see it not being any big deal to the carrier or the non-carry fellow citizens, the more accepted it becomes.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Orygunner wrote:
    Anecdotal evidence may not make a solid argument, but it DOES sway people's opinions.
    There are anecdotal comments and there is evidence. "Anecdotal evidence" is an oxymoran; nevertheless, I do agree and understand how and why people are motivated emotionally and manipulated thusly by the flavor of the message.

    PT111 would seem to support OC and/or CC when it does not offend or bother anyone. I am pleased that he does not feel this way about the 1st Amendment.

    His posting cautions us not to "show off with a gun or play with a gun" and thereby infers that some us may be doing just that - "dressing like gang bangers, bikers" and scaring "soccer moms." I don't know any gang bangers in the movement, I do know some bikers (one is a retired NC police chief) and soccer moms? well I can only speak to baseball and football moms and they were happy to see me at games. I know of no responsible citizen that plays with a gun.

    As "anecdotal comment" I submit that on one occasion my sidearm prevented a physical altercation wherein 3 adult males were going to re-educate an umpire in the parking lot. I did not brandish as I was OCing. In the end my 911 call provided the best solution but had I been CCing there probably would have been personal injuries before it was stopped and I might have had to make difficult decisions.

    The primary target of my diatribe is his fact that most people in S.C. know someone killed with a firearm; further, that by translation his "The rare goof-with-a-gun scenario won't work, people consider it more the rule than the exception" means people with guns are as a rule BGs. These are comments so parallel with the Brady bunch and MMM song and dance that it demanded a response. I choose documentable facts over anecdotal feelings.

    Yata hey








    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.ö Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
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    Orygunner... Very good points. You can throw statistics out the window when it happens to you. One robbery or murder will do more to enhance gun sales than 20 protests or one child being accidently killed will hurt gun rights more than anything else. One can try to brush anecdotal evidence aside but it affects the general public more than anything else. No one says it is reasonable but is effective.

  25. #25
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    I don't care whether anyone OC's or CC's but but just stating that the public perception of carrying. If the rest didn't think that the public had a bad perception then no one would be trying to change the publics mind about it and educate everyone. I don know that everyone I went to school with, everyone in my daughter'shigh schooland everyone that I work with knows someone that was killed with a gun. May not have been a close personal friend but they knew who they were.

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