Loaded vs. Unloaded

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I have a Utah CFP (fat lot of good it does me in Cali!) and I normally carry a Springfield XD 9mm sub-compact which is semi-auto. If I want to carry that gun in a city in California, like Modesto, it seems like you really have to be careful to know whether the law considers your gun "loaded" or "unloaded". As I read it, in some cases you're unloaded if the chamber is empty and the magazine is out of the gun. In other cases, you cannot carry a loaded magazine at the same time you're carrying the gun.

So, which is which? When can you carry a gun and ammo (separately) and when can you NOT carry the ammo, too?

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Matai wrote:

I have a Utah CFP (fat lot of good it does me in Cali!) and I normally carry a Springfield XD 9mm sub-compact which is semi-auto. If I want to carry that gun in a city in California, like Modesto, it seems like you really have to be careful to know whether the law considers your gun "loaded" or "unloaded". As I read it, in some cases you're unloaded if the chamber is empty and the magazine is out of the gun. In other cases, you cannot carry a loaded magazine at the same time you're carrying the gun.

So, which is which? When can you carry a gun and ammo (separately) and when can you NOT carry the ammo, too?

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Basically, the "round in a firing position" definition applies to most situations. The latter "possess of both" definition really only applies as an enhancement for felons and gang members. Just don't mug someone or join a gang and you don't even have to worry about the latter definition.

Judging by your questions, I get the feeling you might be planning a trip down here. If so, don't post any details. Local LE are 'on the hunt' trying to find one of us 'slipping up' so they can 'make an example of' that person. We also know they read the forums here. No need to give them any information.

If you are going to be around, and you want a free cup of coffee, PM me. I'd love to get a few locals together to exercise our rights.

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I never really thought about it before, but should we also recommend to vistors to leave their Hi-Cap mags at home?

My apologies for not having the time to look up the Penal Code at the moment, but can a visitor to CA be charged with 'importation' of a HiCap magazine(greater then 10 rounds)?

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mjones wrote:

I never really thought about it before, but should we also recommend to vistors to leave their Hi-Cap mags at home?

My apologies for not having the time to look up the Penal Code at the moment, but can a visitor to CA be charged with 'importation' of a HiCap magazine(greater then 10 rounds)?

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When I went to Cali last year the CHP guys told me to not bring in any handguns at all because I didn't have a permit (or a handgun importation thing,) so I left them with a friend in Yuma.

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like_the_roman wrote:

When I went to Cali last year the CHP guys told me to not bring in any handguns at all because I didn't have a permit (or a handgun importation thing,) so I left them with a friend in Yuma.

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Hmm, I can't see the justification for that advice at all...there are no handgun permits per se in CA

The only thing I can think of that might even remotely be related is the Handgun Safety Certificate. This nuisance is required to purchase a handgun in CA. It's also required for the recipient of any 'loaned' handgun as well.

12800. It is the intent of the Legislature in enacting this article
to require that persons who obtain handguns have a basic familiarity
with those firearms, including, but not limited to, the safe
handling and storage of those firearms. It is not the intent of the
Legislature to require a handgun safety certificate for the mere
possession of a firearm.

12801. (a) As used in this article, the following definitions shall
apply:
(1) "Department" means the Department of Justice.
(2) "DOJ Certified Instructor" or "certified instructor" means a
person designated as a handgun safety instructor by the Department of
Justice pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12804.
(b) No person shall do either of the following:
(1) Purchase or receive any handgun, except an antique firearm, as
defined in paragraph (16) of subsection (a) of Section 921 of Title
18 of the United States Code, without a valid handgun safety
certificate.
(2) Sell, deliver, loan, or transfer any handgun, except an
antique firearm, as defined in paragraph (16) of subsection (a) of
Section 921 of Title 18 of the United States Code, to any person who
does not have a valid handgun safety certificate.
(c) Any person who violates subdivision (b) is guilty of a
misdemeanor.
(d) The provisions of this section are cumulative, and shall not
be construed as restricting the application of any other law.
However, an act or omission punishable in different ways by different
provisions of this code shall not be punished under more than one
provision.

edit: there are also a bunch of exemptions possible for the HSC. LEO, CCW, Militart, yada yada yada

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http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/11495.html

Read the "Is It Loaded?" pamphlet at the link above. Should answer you questions.

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

Judging by your questions, I get the feeling you might be planning a trip down here. If so, don't post any details. Local LE are 'on the hunt' trying to find one of us 'slipping up' so they can 'make an example of' that person. We also know they read the forums here. No need to give them any information.

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I won't say where, but my family owns some rental property in California and the units are in need of some repair and landscaping work. I've got two problems, the neighborhood is not that great and I really fear for the safety of my family. I'm not afraid to defend myself, and with my Utah permit, I can legally carry in most states ... but not California.

That's ok, I thought to myself. I'll just open carry and pray I have enough time to load the weapon before I have to use it. But that brings up the second problem: the units are only a couple blocks from City Hall and the Police Department. I can't honestly say which scenario I fear more, a bunch of bad guys being stupid enough to make me draw (and load and rack and aim and fire; wait, maybe *I'm* the dumb one), or the cops shaking me down for a MWAG call. How messed up is that? I can't trust the protectors or the predators.

Anyway, I'm glad that rental property is treated the same as private property, and at least inside the units I can carry loaded. That's something. I'm just worried about all the work we'll need to do on the outside, too. We no longer work there past sundown, so I'll just have to trust in safety in numbers when we work outside.

If you are going to be around, and you want a free cup of coffee, PM me. I'd love to get a few locals together to exercise our rights.

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Thanks, CA_L! I'll take you up on that. I'll PM you next time I'm down.

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mjones wrote:

I never really thought about it before, but should we also recommend to vistors to leave their Hi-Cap mags at home?

My apologies for not having the time to look up the Penal Code at the moment, but can a visitor to CA be charged with 'importation' of a HiCap magazine(greater then 10 rounds)?

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Um, yeah....
I knew about the hi-cap mag problem. And I believe visitors can be charged with a violation, too. Funny thing is, when I bought my XD the sticker on the box that said "Not legal in California" was a selling point to me!

However, it comes with a standard 10-round mag, too, and that's what I would bring. The way I read the law, the crime is in possessing or transferring a hi-cap mag, not the fact that one exists for your gun.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

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An unloaded pistol is no more than a inadequate club. It's like tryin' to latch your seat belt just before the crash you never saw coming. THEN... there's the omnipresent spectre of the Kalifonia Socialist Peoples Republik Polizie...

Leave yer guns this side of their border... Their Polizie are more of a personal danger than the gang bangers. Better yet... don't go there at all.

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Matai wrote:

However, it comes with a standard 10-round mag, too, and that's what I would bring. The way I read the law, the crime is in possessing or transferring a hi-cap mag, not the fact that one exists for your gun.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Possession is not actually illegal, but transporting them into the state is. Only way to legally possess is to have owned them in California prior to January 2000. 12020 states:

Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine

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You are fine to bring the weapon, just not mags over 10 rounds.

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While working, you can carry tools. I'd think of bending the rules if circumstances warranted it. A 28oz Vaughn rip hammer is a great tool too. - and you don't need a permit to carry.