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Thread: Who needs a gun in Wawa? Or don't bring hot coffee to a knife fight.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101703516.html

    Pot of coffee, stops robber cold police say.

    By Martin Weil Washington Post Staff Writer
    Saturday, October 18, 2008; Page B03

    A knife-wielding man who held up a Northern Virginia convenience store Thursday dropped most of his loot after a quick-thinking Secret Service agent flung a pot of hot coffee in his face, authorities said.
    The agent's neck was cut slightly as the robber swung his arm in a scuffle in a Wawa store near Interstate 95 in the Garrisonville area of Stafford County, about 35 miles south of Washington, according to the county sheriff's office.
    The off-duty agent was getting coffee at the Wawa when the robber forced a store manager to empty the registers, the sheriff's office said.
    The agent, who saw what was happening but was unarmed, made use of what was available.
    He "grabbed a full pot of hot coffee" and threw it, the sheriff's office said. After a struggle in which most of the cash fell from his bag, the robber fled, the sheriff's office said.

    Scott M. Bleutge, 44, of Stafford County was later arrested on I-95 and charged with robbery, malicious wounding and driving under the influence, the sheriff's office said.



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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    Very MacGyver-ish. I like it!!!

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    Regular Member MeBaby's Avatar
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    I bet he won't be unarmed next time.

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    I read another gas station self defense story on another gun forum a while back that may or may not be true... but it's funny as hell (and useful if you have a zippo....)

    A gentleman was at a sketchy gas station, filling his tank and minding his own business when someone came up to him, produced a weapon , (knife i believe) and demanded his money.

    Not to be undone, the gentleman removed the nozzle from the gas tank, and pulled out his zippo lighter.

    The would be thief, more than likely believing he had just messed with a certifiable maniac, decided to drop the issue and run.



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    Regular Member CRF250rider1000's Avatar
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    Wow I would have thought that the secret service guy would have ALWAYS been carrying! Lucky for him the robber didn't have a gun. I'm sure he really would have wished that he had been carrying then:what:

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    Regular Member CRF250rider1000's Avatar
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    Sheriff wrote:
    CRF250rider1000 wrote:
    Wow I would have thought that the secret service guy would have ALWAYS been carrying!
    I would go so far as to assume he was actually violating his department policy. I can't imagine Secret Service not having to be armed at all times. But this is just speculation on my behalf.

    That's what I would have thought.

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    Maybe he was uniformed secret service

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    Perhaps he was armed, but didn't want to use deadly force. Perhaps if the coffee didn't work, he could have pulled out his gun. I am guessing there's a lot less paper work involved with using a pot of coffee as opposed to an issue sidearm.

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    If it were a citizen in this agents position it would be illegal to draw your firearm correct? I thought you could only draw your weapon when met with lethal force. Am I mistaken?

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    ccunning wrote:
    If it were a citizen in this agents position it would be illegal to draw your firearm correct? I thought you could only draw your weapon when met with lethal force. Am I mistaken?
    When someone is threatening you with a knife that is assumed to be deadly force. Of course it doesn't matter what you think. It's what the judge thinks once the circumstances are laid out onto the courtroom table.

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    There are no specific agency requirements for being armed while not working. Being armed at all times is highly encouraged, but it is left up to the individual agent's discretion. Same goes for UD personnel. Hope this helps.

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    richarcm wrote:
    ccunning wrote:
    If it were a citizen in this agents position it would be illegal to draw your firearm correct? I thought you could only draw your weapon when met with lethal force. Am I mistaken?
    When someone is threatening you with a knife that is assumed to be deadly force. Of course it doesn't matter what you think. It's what the judge thinks once the circumstances are laid out onto the courtroom table.
    My understanding was that the Manager was being threatened - not the Agent. I thought the only person you could return deadly force as a proxy for was a family member (ie... spouse or child). This is just based on what my CHP instructor told us though.

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    ccunning wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    ccunning wrote:
    If it were a citizen in this agents position it would be illegal to draw your firearm correct? I thought you could only draw your weapon when met with lethal force. Am I mistaken?
    When someone is threatening you with a knife that is assumed to be deadly force. Of course it doesn't matter what you think. It's what the judge thinks once the circumstances are laid out onto the courtroom table.
    My understanding was that the Manager was being threatened - not the Agent. I thought the only person you could return deadly force as a proxy for was a family member (ie... spouse or child). This is just based on what my CHP instructor told us though.
    So if you see some random person being held with a knife against their throat you are supposed to either toss them your gun so that they can defend themselves or you are supposed to walk away? Seems any other form of assistance would lead to a big pool of blood coming from the throat.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    There's a whole other thread on this very subject just a bit farther down the list:

    Use of Deadly Force in Virginia

    TFred

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    FAST TIMES AT RIDGEMONT HIGH ! ! !

    DUDE, I KNOW YOU



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    richarcm wrote:
    ccunning wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    ccunning wrote:
    If it were a citizen in this agents position it would be illegal to draw your firearm correct? I thought you could only draw your weapon when met with lethal force. Am I mistaken?
    When someone is threatening you with a knife that is assumed to be deadly force. Of course it doesn't matter what you think. It's what the judge thinks once the circumstances are laid out onto the courtroom table.
    My understanding was that the Manager was being threatened - not the Agent. I thought the only person you could return deadly force as a proxy for was a family member (ie... spouse or child). This is just based on what my CHP instructor told us though.
    So if you see some random person being held with a knife against their throat you are supposed to either toss them your gun so that they can defend themselves or you are supposed to walk away? Seems any other form of assistance would lead to a big pool of blood coming from the throat.
    No. In Virginia in order to defend anyone other than yourself it comes down to determining whether or not the person being attacked had the right to defend themselves and you can only use the amount of force that could be used by the victim. Basically, a reasonable person would have to be able to determine that the victim was in imminent danger and did nothing to provoke the attack themselves. This gets confusing as hell and is hard to explain but it makes sense once its understood. There is a lot of case law on this but I'm kind of tired at the moment and don't feel like looking it up right now.



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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Sheriff wrote:
    MeBaby wrote:
    I bet he won't be unarmed next time.
    I made this mistake once back in the 70s. And of all times.... had an armedbank robber sitting right in front of me in traffic. I had to call ahead and have on duty sit and wait for us. Never let it happen again while off duty. And never again needed a weapon off duty, ain't that the way it goes?
    It sure is, which is why I'm constantly walking back inside as I'm about to leave in the morning to get my gun. You never know.

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    LRS76251 wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    ccunning wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    ccunning wrote:
    If it were a citizen in this agents position it would be illegal to draw your firearm correct? I thought you could only draw your weapon when met with lethal force. Am I mistaken?
    When someone is threatening you with a knife that is assumed to be deadly force. Of course it doesn't matter what you think. It's what the judge thinks once the circumstances are laid out onto the courtroom table.
    My understanding was that the Manager was being threatened - not the Agent. I thought the only person you could return deadly force as a proxy for was a family member (ie... spouse or child). This is just based on what my CHP instructor told us though.
    So if you see some random person being held with a knife against their throat you are supposed to either toss them your gun so that they can defend themselves or you are supposed to walk away? Seems any other form of assistance would lead to a big pool of blood coming from the throat.
    No. In Virginia in order to defend anyone other than yourself it comes down to determining whether or not the person being attacked had the right to defend themselves and you can only use the amount of force that could be used by the victim. Basically, a reasonable person would have to be able to determine that the victim was in imminent danger and did nothing to provoke the attack themselves. This gets confusing as hell and is hard to explain but it makes sense once its understood. There is a lot of case law on this but I'm kind of tired at the moment and don't feel like looking it up right now.

    So again, if you see some random person minding their own business get jumped by some guy and now has a knife to their throat.....you are supposed to walk away? Like for example at a robbery at a gas station where the employee is wearing a bright yellow vest. I'm supposed to do nothing? Granted i don't want to shoot anyone but if I can help save someone's life I probably will. I'll let the court figure out whether or not saving someone's life was legal or not.

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    richarcm wrote:
    So again, if you see some random person minding their own business get jumped by some guy and now has a knife to their throat.....you are supposed to walk away?* Like for example at a robbery at a gas station where the employee is wearing a bright yellow vest.* I'm supposed to do nothing?* Granted i don't want to shoot anyone but if I can help save someone's life I probably will.* I'll let the court figure out whether or not saving someone's life was legal or not.*
    I think in Virginia the answer to your question is yes. I'm not saying I agree, but I do think that you should be aware that you could end up with a murder charge if you do step in. Also now that the thread has been thoroughly jacked this discussion should probably be taken to the thread that TFred pointed out:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/17465.html

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    cmartin7864 wrote:
    Maybe he was uniformed secret service
    Uniformed service or agent what does it matter?

    One of my neighbors is Uniformed Service and he carries legally when not a work.
    Currently he is on partial/light duty due to a injury he sustained on vacation, he fell off a horse.

    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    ccunning wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    So again, if you see some random person minding their own business get jumped by some guy and now has a knife to their throat.....you are supposed to walk away? Like for example at a robbery at a gas station where the employee is wearing a bright yellow vest. I'm supposed to do nothing? Granted i don't want to shoot anyone but if I can help save someone's life I probably will. I'll let the court figure out whether or not saving someone's life was legal or not.
    I think in Virginia the answer to your question is yes. I'm not saying I agree, but I do think that you should be aware that you could end up with a murder charge if you do step in. Also now that the thread has been thoroughly jacked this discussion should probably be taken to the thread that TFred pointed out:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/17465.html
    No, not exactly. You CAN intervene but you better know what has transpired and that you are in the right BEFORE taking action and don't use any amount of force that the original victim could not use themselves. Otherwise, it can get ugly for you.

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