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Thread: Need Advice

  1. #1
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    Alright,

    For some, this may seem like a no brainier. But my bud has been OCing ever since i walked into his home with my SIGMA on my hip. I explained the laws to him, showed him this site, STRESSED the importance of Mitch's book, told him horror stories about the negative (not all are negative) LEO encounters i have heard of...
    But when i ask him to cite 'the big 3' to me (76-10-500, 502, & 505), he just stares at me blankly..When i ask him about school zones, he stares at me blankly..when i ask him about Mitch's book, he just stares at me blankly.

    "Its legal, thats all i got to know.." he says.

    I was really was taken back by this. i mean, i have been OCing for under a year now - and never leave the house without audibly citing 'the big 3', and of course, grabbing my pamphlet. This guy grabs a coke, a smile and his Walther P22 when he heads out...
    My argument was, "Yes, its legal, but if you encounter an uninformed LEO, there is the possibility you can spend a night in jail (or worse)!"

    I can't very well disarm him, its HIS gun. This is a close personal friend though and I don't want him to get in any trouble, not to mention I don't have that kinda bail money sitting around..(well, i got mine )

    Any OC friendly LEOs out there wanna scare him straight for me?

  2. #2
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    wow.
    If he is an adult let him be responsible.

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    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    Alright,

    For some, this may seem like a no brainier. But my bud has been OCing ever since i walked into his home with my SIGMA on my hip. I explained the laws to him, showed him this site, STRESSED the importance of Mitch's book, told him horror stories about the negative (not all are negative) LEO encounters i have heard of...
    But when i ask him to cite 'the big 3' to me (76-10-500, 502, & 505), he just stares at me blankly..When i ask him about school zones, he stares at me blankly..when i ask him about Mitch's book, he just stares at me blankly.

    "Its legal, thats all i got to know.." he says.

    I was really was taken back by this. i mean, i have been OCing for under a year now - and never leave the house without audibly citing 'the big 3', and of course, grabbing my pamphlet. This guy grabs a coke, a smile and his Walther P22 when he heads out...
    My argument was, "Yes, its legal, but if you encounter an uninformed LEO, there is the possibility you can spend a night in jail (or worse)!"

    I can't very well disarm him, its HIS gun. This is a close personal friend though and I don't want him to get in any trouble, not to mention I don't have that kinda bail money sitting around..(well, i got mine )

    Any OC friendly LEOs out there wanna scare him straight for me?
    You could buy him the books or provide that pamphlets to him.

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    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
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    Show him the passage in the Utah code that states that ignorance is not a defense to any violation of law. If he strolls into a post office, for example, carrying his sidearm, he is going to have a nice little encounter with Bubba in a Federal jail.

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    Show him the passage in the Utah code that states that ignorance is not a defense to any violation of law...
    I like that one.


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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    youscareme wrote:
    wow.
    If he is an adult let him be responsible.
    +1

    Give him a pamphlet if you're worried.

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    marshaul wrote:
    youscareme wrote:
    wow.
    If he is an adult let him be responsible.
    +1

    Give him a pamphlet if you're worried.
    Mayhapse a good route to take is to tell him that as a citizen who now OC's; he isn't just representing himself, he represents all of us, and how would he like to be THAT guy who makes a innocent mistake and walks into someplace the law doesn't allow for. . .attracts the attention of the Brady Brood or some other anti-group that decides to use HIM as the example of why guns are bad.

    His innocent mistake could ruin it for all of us.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    marshaul wrote:
    youscareme wrote:
    wow.
    If he is an adult let him be responsible.
    +1

    Give him a pamphlet if you're worried.
    And make sure you are not with him when he is visibly illegally in possession of a firearm. That is true whether it be in your car, his car, or just walking down the street together.

    I would not want to be spending hard earned money finding out how much guilt you have for the illegal actions of others that you knew about and with whom you were clearly associating at the time. It is one thing if he were illegally CCing and you could legitimately claim you had no idea he was carrying a gun in violation of the law. It is quite another when it is clearly visible.

    You might also consider encouraging him to get his concealed carry permit so that he has that defense to OCing in school zones. Won't do him any good in post officers, national parks, posted churches, or other areas that are off limit even to those with permits to carry.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    youscareme wrote:
    wow.
    If he is an adult let him be responsible.
    +1

    Give him a pamphlet if you're worried.
    And make sure you are not with him when he is visibly illegally in possession of a firearm. .
    I already told him, in no uncertain terms, that i would not feel comfortable OCing with/ alongside him if he didn't know the laws. And haven't since i found all this out. I'm just as disappointed as most of you are.
    He knows where the pamphlets are (and yes, i gave him and his wife both print outs), sounds like i have done all i can do for him, and just have to see where h goes with it. i mean, he's an adult (by age), and i can't hold his hand, ya know. Oh well.. guess I'll just have to worry about him.

    PS- i agree with all that was posted by those who replied.

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    marshaul wrote:
    youscareme wrote:
    wow.
    If he is an adult let him be responsible.
    +1

    Give him a pamphlet if you're worried.
    My thoughts exactly....

    Each of us do many of the same things and sometimes for different reasons.

    If he is comfortable with "knowing it is legal...." then that is his choice and we can't live his life for him.

    You have NO obligation to force him to get further knowledge of light and truth....

    The old saying of You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink comes to mind. I also really object to the suggestion that anyone suck on the horses "BUTT" to make him drink.

    JoeSparky
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    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    ChinChin wrote:
    Mayhapse a good route to take is to tell him that as a citizen who now OC's; he isn't just representing himself, he represents all of us, and how would he like to be THAT guy who makes a innocent mistake and walks into someplace the law doesn't allow for. . .attracts the attention of the Brady Brood or some other anti-group that decides to use HIM as the example of why guns are bad.

    His innocent mistake could ruin it for all of us.
    Or to put it another way...


    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  13. #13
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    i dont carry a pamphlet, i havent MEMORIZED the codes, but i ask the officers to show me where its illegal, then i correct them



    ive been stopped by them before

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    I must be missing something here. I have asked around and checked the laws, so I know where I can and cannot OC. Why would I need to memorize chapter and verse the related laws? If an officer thinks I'm wrong, reciting them isn't going to keep me from being arrested, and I'll hire a lawyer to recite them to a judge and jury. If I try to tell them to anyone else, I'm pretty sure their eyes are going to just glaze over as they start to drool on me. If I'm online, I'll just point them to where they can read them for themselves. Basically, I'm with your buddy on this one, I know what I'm doing is legal, memorizing paragraphs of legalese is not going to help me.

    On a completely unrelated note, "legalese" is in the Firefox dicionary. Wierd.

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    FogRider wrote:
    ...If an officer thinks I'm wrong, reciting them isn't going to keep me from being arrested, and I'll hire a lawyer to recite them to a judge and jury....
    I have been operating under the assumption that most LEO have a computer system of some sort that they can check on statutes and limitations. MY argument was: IF you encountered a less than knowledgeable LEO, it might increase your chances of leaving without handcuffs or a citation. I figure the point is to NOT have to see a judge or spend tons of money on attorneys.

    Don't think i don't see where your coming from, my bud tells me the identical verbiage of you post.

    In the end, i guess its a personality trait: Some of us are more comfortable knowing the ins and outs of everything we do, and some of us are comfortable with the bare minimum of knowledge on the topic, or act they are involved in. Both sets of people are doing the right thing, the difference is: One set is rock solid with facts, and the other set isn't.

    Thanks for the response!

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    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    ...One set is rock solid with facts, and the other set isn't.
    The facts are OC is legal because there is no law that makes it illegal!! There is nothing to recite to LEO that "proves" OC is legal and on the flip side there is nothing to recite that makes it illegal. I take more of an approach like FogRider. If they are going to arrest you reciting codeswill not prevent it from happening. LEOs philosopy (like you see on COPS) "tell it to the judge".

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    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    I have been operating under the assumption that most LEO have a computer system of some sort that they can check on statutes and limitations. MY argument was: IF you encountered a less than knowledgeable LEO, it might increase your chances of leaving without handcuffs or a citation. I figure the point is to NOT have to see a judge or spend tons of money on attorneys.

    Don't think i don't see where your coming from, my bud tells me the identical verbiage of you post.

    In the end, i guess its a personality trait: Some of us are more comfortable knowing the ins and outs of everything we do, and some of us are comfortable with the bare minimum of knowledge on the topic, or act they are involved in. Both sets of people are doing the right thing, the difference is: One set is rock solid with facts, and the other set isn't.

    Thanks for the response!
    While knowing the exact wording of the laws may help, it's my opinion that the likelihood is small enough that I do not see any need to memorize the laws. The way I look at it is all I really need to know is legal/not legal. I don't need to memorize the paragraph of the specific law that tells me that I am not allowed to carry on school property, I just need to look it up once and from then on remember that it is illegal. So really, I am rock solid with the facts, I just can't recite them word for word at any given time.

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