UOC on a motorcycle.

stephenruckle · Oct 23, 2008

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I'm new to the forum, and new to owning a handgun. I want to open carry, but a motorcycle is my only means of transportation. I'm asking for a little guidance with a few "situations" regarding handgun transportation and motorcycles.

1. As far as I understand, unloaded open carry is perfectly legal (1000' from schools) in any motor vehicle. That is, a handgun in a holster with an empty mag in it combined with an openly carried mag with cartridges in it (but not inside the gun) is fine. Correct?

2. Given that, it should be perfectly legal if I use the same set-up while riding a motorcycle, correct?

By the way, I'm aware of the fact that this will draw LOTS of attention. That's the point.

3. Translating the law to motorcycles, am I correct in assuming the area under the passenger seat (which locks with a key) is interpreted as the trunk? We motorcyclists actually call that area the "trunk". Therefore, it would be legal to transport the handgun unloaded in the trunk, correct?

4. Fourthly, it is legal to carry an unloaded handgun in a "locked container" while in a vehicle. A "locked container" can be a briefcase, handbag, or whatever. Therefore, on a motorcycle, shouldn't it be legal to carry an unloaded handgun in a backpack, provided the compartment it's contained in is locked (zippers with a lock through them?)

5. And lastly, will a handgun be considered "loaded" if the magazine and handgun are both locked in the same container (backpack, trunk, holster, whatever) but the magazine is filled with cartridges, and not attached --but right next to-- the handgun?

Nobody has to answer all my questions in one post, anyone can answer just one. Just quote the question when you answer.

Basically, I'm wanting to comply with the law, but only just. I don't want to restrict myself any more than is absolutely necessary, and that means taking as many liberties as I possibly can while they're still available. I'm perfectly aware that a handgun and separate loaded mag in my backpack with it's locked zippers will land me in court, and the chances of me winning are slim, but I'm prepared to take the risk as long as the law does not prohibit it.

MudCamper · Oct 24, 2008

imported post

I'm new to the forum, and new to owning a handgun. I want to open carry, but a motorcycle is my only means of transportation. I'm asking for a little guidance with a few "situations" regarding handgun transportation and motorcycles.

1. As far as I understand, unloaded open carry is perfectly legal (1000' from schools) in any motor vehicle. That is, a handgun in a holster with an empty mag in it combined with an openly carried mag with cartridges in it (but not inside the gun) is fine. Correct?

Correct.

2. Given that, it should be perfectly legal if I use the same set-up while riding a motorcycle, correct?

Correct.

By the way, I'm aware of the fact that this will draw LOTS of attention. That's the point.

Many LEO won’t know the law and will assume you’re breaking some. Be careful.

3. Translating the law to motorcycles, am I correct in assuming the area under the passenger seat (which locks with a key) is interpreted as the trunk? We motorcyclists actually call that area the "trunk". Therefore, it would be legal to transport the handgun unloaded in the trunk, correct?

Correct.

4. Fourthly, it is legal to carry an unloaded handgun in a "locked container" while in a vehicle. A "locked container" can be a briefcase, handbag, or whatever. Therefore, on a motorcycle, shouldn't it be legal to carry an unloaded handgun in a backpack, provided the compartment it's contained in is locked (zippers with a lock through them?)

Yes, legal.

5. And lastly, will a handgun be considered "loaded" if the magazine and handgun are both locked in the same container (backpack, trunk, holster, whatever) but the magazine is filled with cartridges, and not attached --but right next to-- the handgun?

Not loaded. 12031 and People v Clark are clear on this. Again however, many cops don’t know this.

Nobody has to answer all my questions in one post, anyone can answer just one. Just quote the question when you answer.

Basically, I'm wanting to comply with the law, but only just. I don't want to restrict myself any more than is absolutely necessary, and that means taking as many liberties as I possibly can while they're still available. I'm perfectly aware that a handgun and separate loaded mag in my backpack with it's locked zippers will land me in court, and the chances of me winning are slim, but I'm prepared to take the risk as long as the law does not prohibit it.

I shouldn’t land you in court. And you’d win if it did.

Of course, print out, read, and keep handy the flyer or pamphlet.

Decoligny · Oct 24, 2008

imported post

stephenruckle wrote:

I'm new to the forum, and new to owning a handgun. I want to open carry, but a motorcycle is my only means of transportation. I'm asking for a little guidance with a few "situations" regarding handgun transportation and motorcycles.

1. As far as I understand, unloaded open carry is perfectly legal (1000' from schools) in any motor vehicle. That is, a handgun in a holster with an empty mag in it combined with an openly carried mag with cartridges in it (but not inside the gun) is fine. Correct?

It is not necessary to have an empty mag in the mag well, as long as there is not a full mag in the mag well.

2. Given that, it should be perfectly legal if I use the same set-up while riding a motorcycle, correct?

As long as you abide by theschool zone prohibition, and do not carry into an area "that you know, or should reasonably know, is a school zone". Don't need to worry about riding down the freeway if there happens to be a school next to the freeway that you don't know about.

3. Translating the law to motorcycles, am I correct in assuming the area under the passenger seat (which locks with a key) is interpreted as the trunk? We motorcyclists actually call that area the "trunk". Therefore, it would be legal to transport the handgun unloaded in the trunk, correct?

This is a grey area. It could be argued by LEO that it is a utility compartment.

4. Fourthly, it is legal to carry an unloaded handgun in a "locked container" while in a vehicle. A "locked container" can be a briefcase, handbag, or whatever. Therefore, on a motorcycle, shouldn't it be legal to carry an unloaded handgun in a backpack, provided the compartment it's contained in is locked (zippers with a lock through them?)

Yes, it is perfectly legal. If it is a handbag, it had better have a sturdy locking mechanism or it might not be considered a "secure" container.

5. And lastly, will a handgun be considered "loaded" if the magazine and handgun are both locked in the same container (backpack, trunk, holster, whatever) but the magazine is filled with cartridges, and not attached --but right next to-- the handgun?

No it will not be considered loaded. Please read the pamphlet at: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/11495.html

Basically, I'm wanting to comply with the law, but only just. I don't want to restrict myself any more than is absolutely necessary, and that means taking as many liberties as I possibly can while they're still available. I'm perfectly aware that a handgun and separate loaded mag in my backpack with it's locked zippers will land me in court, and the chances of me winning are slim, but I'm prepared to take the risk as long as the law does not prohibit it.

It "might" land you in court. However, if you cannot get into the backpack without destroying the backpack, and it is locked with a combination lock or pad lock, then I think it would qualify under the letter of the law.

MudCamper · Oct 24, 2008

imported post

Decoligny wrote:

3. Translating the law to motorcycles, am I correct in assuming the area under the passenger seat (which locks with a key) is interpreted as the trunk? We motorcyclists actually call that area the "trunk". Therefore, it would be legal to transport the handgun unloaded in the trunk, correct?

Click to expand...

This is a grey area. It could be argued by LEO that it is a utility compartment.

Click to expand...

It requires a key to open. Not only that, but it's under the seat. You'd have to stop, get off the bike, and unlock the seat. IMO, the cop would have to be crazy to not consider that complying with 12026.1.But then again, if he's rabidly anti-gun, I guess he could consider it the glove box. Perhaps you are correct. It's a gray area.

CA_Libertarian · Oct 24, 2008

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Of course, one could lock the gun in a case and then put it in the compartment under the seat. You could do this for the glove compartment in your car, too. The exemption simply states that your glove compartment and center console cannot be used to meet the locking container requirement.

mjones · Oct 24, 2008

imported post

I would recommendsome extra thoughtabout keeping an empty magazine in the magwell. I've never had a LEO exercise his authority to determine the loaded/unloaded state of a firearm, but anecdotally an empty magwell might mean the difference between 12031(e) being exercised or not.

In other words, magazine inside handgun might equal reasonable articulable suspicion for a stop and check.

Heck, the simpleexistence of 12031(e) might be cause enough on its own...any opinions on this? Personally I've never had a single LEO do anything more then ask if an OCd handgun is loaded or not.

---------

12031(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.

stephenruckle · Oct 24, 2008

imported post

CA_Libertarian wrote:

Of course, one could lock the gun in a case and then put it in the compartment under the seat. You could do this for the glove compartment in your car, too. The exemption simply states that your glove compartment and center console cannot be used to meet the locking container requirement.

The trouble with the "trunk" on my motorcycle is that it's too small to hold a case. That means the pistol would need to be in the "trunk" without anything around it. Heck, I'm not even sure if the naked pistol would fit in there, anyways since the space is so small (sport bike). Hence my questions regarding a backpack.

I would run into trouble if the LEO considered the space a glovebox/utility compartment. Considering that I would need to stop, take the key out of the ignition, get off the bike, turn around, and unlock the seat in order to get the gun probably means that area isn't considered a glovebox/utility compartment.

Thanks everyone for your responses!

cato · Oct 24, 2008

imported post

mjones wrote:

Heck, the simpleexistence of 12031(e) might be cause enough on its own...

12031(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.

No PC needed for a 12031e check...and as such it is to me clearly a 4th A. violation (absent other normal PC to detain/investigate/search/arrest).

cato · Oct 24, 2008

imported post

stephenruckle wrote:

Hence my questions regarding a backpack.

If not UOCing, use the exemption inPC12026.1(a) - Locked case in a backpack or a locked backpack should be OK.

UOC on a motorcycle.

stephenruckle

Regular Member

MudCamper

Founder's Club Member

Decoligny

Regular Member

MudCamper

Founder's Club Member

CA_Libertarian

State Researcher

mjones

Regular Member

stephenruckle

Regular Member

cato

Newbie

cato

Newbie