Kicked out of Regency Mall - 10/26

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Was running a few errands in the West End with my girlfriend earlier today, OC'ing. We ended up at Regency Mall, and since I couldn't remember it being on the VCDL gun-unfriendly mall list and there was nothing posted at the entrance I figured I would be fine OCing inside.

Spend about 15 minutes in Sears, then walked around the mall and various stores for approx. 15 more minutes. I was dragged into Victoria Secret by the gf, and about 10 minutes later a mall cop approached me and asked to speak outside. I actually was glad for the excuse to get out of Victoria Secret. She was fairly polite and informed me that the mall had a no firearms policy. She wore a badge that said "Security Supervisor." I said no problem, I'll leave, but asked if there was a manager I could speak to or if she had contact info. I basically wanted to make sure this was actually corporate/mall policy, and not just her own policy. She said that he was already on the way with Henrico County PD.

That made me a little worried, I don't think it was necessary to call the cops before even speaking to me, but I'm sure they have their policies. But hey, I had the confidence of innocence.

The manager, Mr. Dennis Rainey (his title is Director of Public Safety) showed up within the minute along with Officer Brand of Henrico PD. Mr. Rainey informed me of the mall policy, at which point I asked if the policy was posted at any of the entrances. (There was nothing at the Sears entrance) Officer Brand cut in and said it was private property and they could make any rules they like (duh). I again asked Mr. Rainey because I was curious, and he told me they didn't want to post it because a "no firearms" sign would make people think the mall had a problem and was unsafe. He also told me about how he was a gun guy and had a few at home. Officer Brand spoke up again and said that I would have to leave my gun in the car (no thanks). I didn't feel like arguing either of these points (mall safety or the wisdom of putting my gun in a glass box).

Mr. Rainey then made the comment about how he noticed I was carrying my gun "ready to go" and that someone could come by and knock it and it could go off (I was carrying my Springfield 1911, cocked and locked, in a serpa retention holster). I couldn't let that one go and told him that "cocked and locked" is the only safe way to carry a 1911 pattern pistol. He also told me that Stoney Point Fashion Park had the same policy, even though there was nothing posted there either.

At this point I thanked everyone involved for how they handled it, got a business card from Mr. Rainey, and asked if I could leave by the entrance I entered, which involved walking back the length of the mall and thru Sears to where I was parked. Mr. Rainey said no problem and to my suprise nobody even followed me out.


Overall everyone involved was very polite and professional. It was a waste of Officer Brand's time to be there, and it was evident by the way he acted initially. After he realized I was a reasonable and polite person he shut up and allowed me to have a conversation with Mr. Rainey. Actually right before I left, Mr. Rainey asked me what model handgun I was carrying.

Regency Mall apparently doesn't create this policy, they contract with IPC International Corporation, which provides loss prevention and public safety services, and sets the mall security policies.

The only thing that bothered me was that the mall policy was no weapons on mall property, but the officer advised me to leave in my car in the mall parking lot. I wasn't thinking fast enough at the time to point this out.

I am considering sending an e-mail to Mr. Rainey thanking him for his courtesy, requesting a copy of the policy, and asking him his opinion on concealed carry in the mall.

Also I think VCDL should add Regency and Stoney Point to the gun-unfriendly mall list, because even though they are not posted they quite clearly don't want their shoppers to be able to defend themselves. (Btw the mall security is unarmed) As for me, I won't be shopping at any area malls for a while.

As a side note, I OC'ed in Party City earlier in the day, and it was a zoo. However outside a lot of crazy stares and mumbling from some soccer moms, there was no problem.

If anyone is interested in the contact info for Mr. Rainey or IPC, let me know.

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This is one of those situations where VCDL President PVC is correct regarding OC and private property.If the mall now posts "no guns" signs, then that means people who normally CC can no longer carry concealed there.


EDIT: I just reread my post and it sounds like I'm anti-OC. I'm not, I fully support both OC and CC and OC frequently. Most malls in my area are already posted so it doesn't matter personally to me.

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nova wrote:

This is one of those situations where VCDL President PVC is correct...

EDIT: I just reread my post and it sounds like I'm anti-OC. I'm not...

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It also sounds like you think Philip isn't often correct, but I know that's not what you meant (nor literally what you said). :lol:

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nova wrote:

This is one of those situations where VCDL President PVC is correct regarding OC and private property.If the mall now posts "no guns" signs, then that means people who normally CC can no longer carry concealed there.


EDIT: I just reread my post and it sounds like I'm anti-OC. I'm not, I fully support both OC and CC and OC frequently. Most malls in my area are already posted so it doesn't matter personally to me.

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I'm confused on the logic. If a private property owner says 'no guns are allowed' doesn't that also apply to CC as well as OC? I don't understand how people OCing are ruining it for CCers?

That whole idea is just weird to me. If there is a sticker or not and they state their policy as "no guns"....doesn't that apply to CC AND OC?

If you are for some reason in need of your gun on private property and you are CCing even though you know no guns are allowed....would you have any more guilt attached to you by a judge if you were CCing against policy and thus legally trespassing despite needing to use your gun where it would normally be considered justified?

And so now that people know that guns are not allowed at Regency or Stony point....is anybody still planning on CCing there?

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The point is, is that even if a place has a no-guns policy, as long as the carrier does not know, and the place isn't posted, no body is the wiser. At least, that's how I interpreted what is on the VCDL website here:

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]"We have a "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL POLICY." NEVER ask if it is OK or for permission to carry anywhere. Don't make an issue of the fact you are carrying. Don't cause problems for future patrons, or even for yourself. The point is, you want to have your defensive tool with you. No one needs to know. Don't make a big deal out of it. Try to be low key. KNOW THE LAW IF YOU ARE GOING TO CARRY OPENLY. PLEASE, don't cause problems that you will then expect others, or us to correct. Thank you."

http://www.vcdl.org/static/gue.html
[/font]

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nova wrote:

The point is, is that even if a place has a no-guns policy, as long as the carrier does not know, and the place isn't posted, no body is the wiser. At least, that's how I interpreted what is on the VCDL website here:

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]"We have a "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL POLICY." NEVER ask if it is OK or for permission to carry anywhere. Don't make an issue of the fact you are carrying. Don't cause problems for future patrons, or even for yourself. The point is, you want to have your defensive tool with you. No one needs to know. Don't make a big deal out of it. Try to be low key. KNOW THE LAW IF YOU ARE GOING TO CARRY OPENLY. PLEASE, don't cause problems that you will then expect others, or us to correct. Thank you."

http://www.vcdl.org/static/gue.html
[/font]

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I understand that. But I don't understand how OCers are given such a hard time for OCing on private property but then CCers are told its okay to carry CC "as long as nobody is the wiser"...even though it is still trespassing.

I'm not against OC or CC. I have my CHP. The thing is that this rationality only seems 1/2 logical to me. I can't quite get myself to accept that as a good reason to CC and a bad reason to OC.

My question again is anyone going to CC at Regency or Stoney Pointe or will everyone just pretend like they never saw this?

I'm not trying to troll or start trouble. This just seems weird to me. I understand the logic...1/2 way. I certainly don't want stickers all over every private retailer! I just feel like a big part of the battle is desensitizing people to handguns and the best way I've found to do that is to walk into my local Chipotle or Giant and talk to the cashier about my handgun and answer their questions about the legality. I don't have that opportunity walking down a public sidewalk.

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Let me first say I'm not advocating breaking the law. Let me take a minute and dig up some stuff that's relevant.

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The VCDL position (distinct from the OCDO collective opinion) is that as long as a facility allows either CC or OC, that's fine. And as long as it's not posted, but you know they're likely to ask you to leave if you OC, then it's effectively the same as saying CC is okay with them.

At least that's how I understand it.

~ Boyd

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OK here's some posts I dug up from another mall carry ban thread:

VCDL President wrote:

Thundar wrote:

VCDL President wrote:

I have recommended for some time that when carrying on private property, except restaurants that serve alcohol, to conceal carry if you have a CHP.

Public property is different.

Private property can ban guns at will and the worst track records with 'no guns' bans are at large malls and movie theaters.

What we don't want is to good malls and movie theaters into posting, which would affect everyone - even those who concealed carry. Better to let them have their private, unwritten policies and to once in a while ask an open carrier to leave, than to post.

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1) A right exercised is a right lost. That is the motto on this forum.

2) The premise that OCing will ruin it fo CCres on private property is a false flag. What legal difference does a sign make to the CCer?A no firearmssign is a private conduct rule, just like a no chewing gum sign and has no legal effect.

3) There is a practical side to what you say, as it is the path of least resistance. The path of the OC activist, however, is often harder.The mirror, however,is easier for theOC activist to stare into when shaving in the morning.

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Let's be clear - on PRIVATE property you don't have a lot of your rights. If someone stepped into your home with a shirt with profanity written on it and you had a ten-year old around, you might decide that person's free speech rights don't exist. Someone who doesn't like you or your guns can ask you to leave their private property with impunity.

Saying that carrying on PRIVATE property is exercising a right, is simply wrong. You don't have a right to bear arms on private property.

Remember - I don't make the laws, I'm just the messenger.

You CAN exercise that right, which you do have, in a public building, on a public sidewalk, or on your own property or on the property of someone who doesn't care or is sympathetic to the right. Just remember that on private property, the owner can decide what rights you have and can exercise and which you don't and can't.

Also, I wish it were a false flag about signs going up. The problem is with some gun owners, who when asked to leave private property based on a policy, written or not, DEMAND that a sign go up with the stated policy. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

If you want to open carry at a mall or theater, go right ahead. If you get kicked out, you most certainly can boycott the stores if you wish. That is one piece of leverage you have to make them reconsider. But your ability to exercise the right to carry ends at the beginning of their property.

I don't consider a store that bans only a certain type of carry (either no open carry or no concealed carry) to be anti-gun as long as they allow one or the other. The problem, and associated campaign to correct the problem, comes when all carry is disallowed. Some malls don't post a policy because they don't carry about CC, but don't want OC. Oh, well.

If the mall has nothing posted, but do have a 'no guns' policy and you are carrying concealed, you don't know about their rule and they don't know about your gun. No harm, no foul, no trespass.

If the law were to be changed where public accommodations (hotels, malls, stores) had to allow all forms of legal carry (which would be cool from my point of view), THEN we could talk about exercising a right on that property.

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What is the legality of lawfully using a firearm on private property that ultimately disallows the possession of said firearm and states that you were trespassing?

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I don't know the legal ramifications, but I believe in the old saying "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get ready to go to an OC dinner! I love BBQ! :lol:

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nova wrote:

OK here's some posts I dug up from another mall carry ban thread:

VCDL President wrote:

Thundar wrote:

VCDL President wrote:

I have recommended for some time that when carrying on private property, except restaurants that serve alcohol, to conceal carry if you have a CHP.

Public property is different.

Private property can ban guns at will and the worst track records with 'no guns' bans are at large malls and movie theaters.

What we don't want is to good malls and movie theaters into posting, which would affect everyone - even those who concealed carry. Better to let them have their private, unwritten policies and to once in a while ask an open carrier to leave, than to post.

Click to expand...

1) A right exercised is a right lost. That is the motto on this forum.

2) The premise that OCing will ruin it fo CCres on private property is a false flag. What legal difference does a sign make to the CCer?A no firearmssign is a private conduct rule, just like a no chewing gum sign and has no legal effect.

3) There is a practical side to what you say, as it is the path of least resistance. The path of the OC activist, however, is often harder.The mirror, however,is easier for theOC activist to stare into when shaving in the morning.

Click to expand...

Let's be clear - on PRIVATE property you don't have a lot of your rights. If someone stepped into your home with a shirt with profanity written on it and you had a ten-year old around, you might decide that person's free speech rights don't exist. Someone who doesn't like you or your guns can ask you to leave their private property with impunity.

Saying that carrying on PRIVATE property is exercising a right, is simply wrong. You don't have a right to bear arms on private property.

Remember - I don't make the laws, I'm just the messenger.

You CAN exercise that right, which you do have, in a public building, on a public sidewalk, or on your own property or on the property of someone who doesn't care or is sympathetic to the right. Just remember that on private property, the owner can decide what rights you have and can exercise and which you don't and can't.

Also, I wish it were a false flag about signs going up. The problem is with some gun owners, who when asked to leave private property based on a policy, written or not, DEMAND that a sign go up with the stated policy. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

If you want to open carry at a mall or theater, go right ahead. If you get kicked out, you most certainly can boycott the stores if you wish. That is one piece of leverage you have to make them reconsider. But your ability to exercise the right to carry ends at the beginning of their property.

I don't consider a store that bans only a certain type of carry (either no open carry or no concealed carry) to be anti-gun as long as they allow one or the other. The problem, and associated campaign to correct the problem, comes when all carry is disallowed. Some malls don't post a policy because they don't carry about CC, but don't want OC. Oh, well.

If the mall has nothing posted, but do have a 'no guns' policy and you are carrying concealed, you don't know about their rule and they don't know about your gun. No harm, no foul, no trespass.

If the law were to be changed where public accommodations (hotels, malls, stores) had to allow all forms of legal carry (which would be cool from my point of view), THEN we could talk about exercising a right on that property.

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I actually responded to that post when it was written. To make a bad comparison, for comparison's sake....I see this as carrying weed on you and just not being caught. Does not getting caught with it make it right? Maybe this is where I'm getting stuck. There is NO difference, realistically (legally, etc...yes), between OCing and CCing. No guns means no guns. Just like no possessing weed means no possessing weed regardless of whether or not you are caught.

"If the mall has nothing posted, but do have a 'no guns' policy and you are carrying concealed, you don't know about their rule and they don't know about your gun. No harm, no foul, no trespass." <----Weird....LOL

Again, I 1/2 understand because we want to be able to carry and we don't want no gun stickers everywhere. But again I've educated the most people on the laws and opened the most eyes while purchasing something at a store. It seems that is, in my opinion, the best opportunity to enlighten people. I'm not sure where else I can do that while OCing and of course you CAN'T while CCing.....

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richarcm wrote:

What is the legality of lawfully using a firearm on private property that ultimately disallows the possession of said firearm and states that you were trespassing?

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IANAL, I don't play one on TV and I haven't been in a Holiday Inn Express in years, but it seems to me the worst would be an ex post facto charge of Trespassing.

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nova wrote:

I don't know the legal ramifications, but I believe in the old saying "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get ready to go to an OC dinner! I love BBQ! :lol:

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But sometimes you'd rather die with honor than live without it.....in prison.

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I think that the point is to not put the property owner on the spot to make a blanket decision.

If they choose to not post signs yet still reserve the right to eject someone open carrying because it 'disturbs' the uninititated, they MAY be keeping their legal butts covered while not excluding cc'ing.

I cannot clearly state that that it the issue here, but it may be in some cases.



Look at it this way.

Suppose I have neighborhood kids that cut through my yard rather than travel busy streets. I may not care, but I don't want the legal exposure should something happen to them on my property. Solution? Put up a No Trespassing sign and just not happen to notice when they walk by.

An imperfect analogy (since I DID put up a sign I might not enforce), but you get the idea.

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Glock27Bill wrote:

I think that the point is to not put the property owner on the spot to make a blanket decision.

If they choose to not post signs yet still reserve the right to eject someone open carrying because it 'disturbs' the uninititated, they MAY be keeping their legal butts covered while not excluding cc'ing.

I cannot clearly state that that it the issue here, but it may be in some cases.



Look at it this way.

Suppose I have neighborhood kids that cut through my yard rather than travel busy streets. I may not care, but I don't want the legal exposure should something happen to them on my property. Solution? Put up a No Trespassing sign and just not happen to notice when they walk by.

An imperfect analogy (since I DID put up a sign I might not enforce), but you get the idea.

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Yeah, I understand that aspect and of course that is to MY best benefit. Although you then have to ask yourself do these places have no gun policies for legal/insurance reasons or because they just do not want guns on their premises.

Anyways as I said before I think that there are 2 reasons to carry. The most important is to provide yourself and potentially others with protection. The other is to promote and further the 2nd Amendment agenda by educating others and desensitizing them to the sight of a gun. You can not do that effectively on a sidewalk or by CCing your handgun. Maybe I'm on the wrong side of this but I see more good being done by efficiently OCing your firearm on private property while doing everyday normal family tasks (buying paint, buying groceries, shopping for school supplies, etc) and risking the dreadful sticker than CCing your firearm without anyone knowing and allowing society to continue it's path to anti-ism due to ignorance and indoctrination.

But that's just me.

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Well to clear up a few things about the OP.

I agree (generally) with the VCDL's position on OC on private property. I made no demands for Regency to post their property "no firearms" nor would I expect them to. Their policy apparently is to ask the person to leave, after calling Henrico PD. I really don't mind, although it was a slight hassle, I was treated with courtesy and respect.

However, I am beginning to enjoy OC for practical reasons. Its far more comfortable and I can wear whatever I want. I'm generally a shorts and t-shirt kinda guy. Not to mention it is a natural right. While under current laws I have no right to bear arms on private property, no law can take away my right to defend myself against bodily harm.

Basically now I have 2 options when deciding where to OC.

1. I can call ahead to every privately owned venue before I go and try to find out their firearms policy.

2. I can go about my normal life, avoiding places that are posted, or have been identified as OC unfriendly by the VCDL or OCDO. Then when I am approached by management and informed of an unposted policy, I deal with it in a polite and personable manner, and hopefully give that management a positive view of people who OC in general.

The only thing that I would ask of the VCDL is that, if they continue to maintain a "gun-unfriendly" businesses listing, they should include businesses that have, and enforce, a no-gun policy, even if it is unposted.

Or perhaps we should create an "OC-unfriendly business" thread so other OC'ers don't repeat the same mistakes.

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essayons wrote:

Well to clear up a few things about the OP.

I agree (generally) with the VCDL's position on OC on private property. I made no demands for Regency to post their property "no firearms" nor would I expect them to. Their policy apparently is to ask the person to leave, after calling Henrico PD. I really don't mind, although it was a slight hassle, I was treated with courtesy and respect.

However, I am beginning to enjoy OC for practical reasons. Its far more comfortable and I can wear whatever I want. I'm generally a shorts and t-shirt kinda guy. Not to mention it is a natural right. While under current laws I have no right to bear arms on private property, no law can take away my right to defend myself against bodily harm.

Basically now I have 2 options when deciding where to OC.

1. I can call ahead to every privately owned venue before I go and try to find out their firearms policy.

2. I can go about my normal life, avoiding places that are posted, or have been identified as OC unfriendly by the VCDL or OCDO. Then when I am approached by management and informed of an unposted policy, I deal with it in a polite and personable manner, and hopefully give that management a positive view of people who OC in general.

The only thing that I would ask of the VCDL is that, if they continue to maintain a "gun-unfriendly" businesses listing, they should include businesses that have, and enforce, a no-gun policy, even if it is unposted.

Or perhaps we should create an "OC-unfriendly business" thread so other OC'ers don't repeat the same mistakes.

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Well said. Maybe I am too honest but if a mall says "no guns" I will just go somewhere else even thought I do have my CHP. If they don't want guns there then they don't want me there. I guess I am just your typical black and white kind of guy.

Until I know someone doesn't want me to have my gun on me I will continue to OC. There ARE businesses that enjoy your right to carry. To go by the rule of never OC on private property would be to assume that you shouldn't OC there either. As I see it the main idea is to use discretion. OCing, in my opinion is helpful and healthy, as long as you use your head as to where you are going, how you are dressing, how you are acting, who you are with, etc. So far I have OC'd all over the place and have barely heard a whisper about it. I've had more positive and healthy interactions than negative encounters that would lead to "the sticker". In that sense I feel that I have done more good by OCing than bad.

But again, taht is just me....

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essayons wrote:

Also I think VCDL should add Regency and Stoney Point to the gun-unfriendly mall list,

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I have open carried at Stony Point Fashion Park

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The way I see it:

With the exception of Essayons the rest of us can CC or OC until security tells us otherwise or the mall posts it on the entrances. If wechose to OC we will be warned and if we return and OC or CC we will be trespassing.

If we are NOT told bysecurity or mall managment how are we supposed to know thatguns arent allowed? Years ago a friend of mine went riding dirt bikes at a place in Chester and it was private property...but UNPOSTED. Owners called police and they came and told us we had to leave, BUT he couldnt charge us with trespassing because it WASN'T posted. If the mall isnt posted then we can OC/CC until told otherwise.

And if we are CC how is anyone going to know we are carrying?? So we will never be warned .... right? Then we can always carry in those places.

Seems that CC is the way to go at places that DON'T post about firearms being prohibited.

Of course Essayons has told us about their policy but I didnt hear it from THEM.

Just my 5 cents worth on this Sunday evening.:dude: