Boy 8 shoots himself in Mass

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Paul Volk wrote:

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They handled them well enough, and the event was safe, but this may be an example for a need for some sort of regulation tohinder a potential future negligent situation.

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I hope you're not serious that we actually need some sort of law to take care of this problem. How many children is THIS going to save? How often does government actually SOLVE problems with more laws?

We all (should) know that the cause of this tragedy isn't the submachine gun. It isn't lack of federal laws that caused this tragic accident. It was negligence on the part of whoever was responsible for that gun and that child.

I see this event as an identical lack of responsibility as letting an 8 year old inexperienced rider on a Banshee ATV (one of the most powerful sport quads they make). Something too powerful and too hard for a youngster to handle by themselves. Not to say they couldn't safely ride it with direct immediate supervision, like if a responsible adult rides on the ATV with them (or in this case, firing the Uzi with a responsible adult that has a firm grip on the gun).

We definitely don't need any new laws or regulations. We have too much government control in our lives already. I also don't think the people responsible need to be charged criminally. I am sure they are suffering far worse punishment than any jail time could impose.

...Orygunner...

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Paul Volk wrote:

The scary part is that this is a common occurrence. Of the gun shows that I've attended, at least 3 instances, I've seen young (10 years old or less) shooting fully automatic guns. They handled them well enough, and the event was safe, but this may be an example for a need for some sort of regulation tohinder a potential future negligent situation.

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Whatform of unconstitutionallegislation would you propose?

I am not sure what you mean by common as I don't believe I have personallyseen an 8 year old fire a fully-automatic weapon, although I do believe that some of that age are betterapt to handle those situations than others. It's up to the parent and instructor to decide the childs' ability. This turned out tragic, but it doesn't happen very often. I Have never read of such a situation like this in my entire life.

You admitted that the times you witnessed it happening, it was safe, but at the same time you are suggesting punishing all for the mistakes of the one.

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I heard some insight into this gunshow & the "supervision," of any of the shooters, in general, was limited to basically holding the shoulder of the shooter if they needed it.

I was talking to a RSO at the range I went to on sunday & he wanted to get his 6 y/o daughter into shooting. So long as it's done SAFELY and by somebody that's got all of their ducks in a row, even younger children can shoot. That doesn't mean I'd give a 4 y/o a 410 shotgun or a .22 rifle, but my wife's younger boy started shooting shortly after he turned 5.

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An 8 yr old has absolutely no business shooting a freakin Uzi. Period.

8 yr olds should be shooting BB guns and MAYBE Cricket .22 Short single shot bolt actions.

I see this stuff everyday: Parents wanting their kids to grow up so fast, faster than they're supposed to or even meant to. I guess the parents of today are in such a rush, have no patience to allow kids to grow up and mature.

8 years old. What a waste.

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If I ever have the opportunity to shoot a full-auto ( if I can find a range that rents them)I will, and if my son is with me I'll want him to enjoy the experience too (he's 11). Butafter reading this I will make damn sure I'm havea hand on the gun to preventsomething like this from happening.

What a tragedy

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http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/17751.html

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Evil Ernie wrote:

An 8 yr old has absolutely no business shooting a freakin Uzi. Period.

8 yr olds should be shooting BB guns and MAYBE Cricket .22 Short single shot bolt actions.

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AMEN! I cannot understand, for the life of me - why anyone would think handing a fully automatic carbine to an 8 year-old, would be a good idea! STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!

When I was that age, I was learning to strip and clean an old Montgomery Wards .22LR, and the basics of safe gun handling. My father wouldn't let me shoot it until I could properly disassemble, clean, and reassemble the thing.

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AWDstylez wrote:

Tragic.

Yet one more reason that "shall not infringe" doesn't apply to children and doesn't mean that all parents are responsible.

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No.



But I agree that there are irresponsible parents out there, and no law will change that.

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http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/10/police_identify_6.html?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed5

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I didn't read the article but I believe its up to parents to know when their children are mature enough. Making the government set an arbitrary limit is to say that the government knows better what is right for your children, even if they never met them.

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Sheriff wrote:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/17751.html

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Thanks for the link. I heard about this on the way home, and I knew there would be discussion about it.

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I've seen some things like this, but in those instances, the parent(s) were right behind the kid, and helping him hold the weapon so they could not hurt themselves with it. The parent is ultimately responsible for what has happened....manslaughter seems to be an appropriate charge, if there has to be one. Hold the people at fault responsible, not the rest of the people who are responsible gun owners.......

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Somebody wasn't thinking here. I'm assuming that the Uzi was a 9mm, or there abouts. I wouldn't allow an 8 year old to shoot a semi-auto at that cal., just too much recoil for someone that young.

My guess as to what happened here was that once the Uzi started getting away from the kid, he began gripping harder with all fingers (including his trigger finger) to control it. And apparently, no adult had their hand on the weapon.

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This is full evidence that individuals, even law-abiding individuals, sometimes make bad choices.

I have to wonder if the parent had ever fired an Uzi. I have to wonder if the instructor questioned the youngster's strength or familiarity with firearms. Paul Volk wrote of seeing youngsters who could handle it. That's the bad choice the parent and instructor made, not the pure fact the child was shooting some scary firearm.

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Orygunner wrote:

Paul Volk wrote:

...
They handled them well enough, and the event was safe, but this may be an example for a need for some sort of regulation tohinder a potential future negligent situation.

Click to expand...

I hope you're not serious that we actually need some sort of law to take care of this problem. How many children is THIS going to save? How often does government actually SOLVE problems with more laws?

We all (should) know that the cause of this tragedy isn't the submachine gun. It isn't lack of federal laws that caused this tragic accident. It was negligence on the part of whoever was responsible for that gun and that child.

I see this event as an identical lack of responsibility as letting an 8 year old inexperienced rider on a Banshee ATV (one of the most powerful sport quads they make). Something too powerful and too hard for a youngster to handle by themselves. Not to say they couldn't safely ride it with direct immediate supervision, like if a responsible adult rides on the ATV with them (or in this case, firing the Uzi with a responsible adult that has a firm grip on the gun).

We definitely don't need any new laws or regulations. We have too much government control in our lives already. I also don't think the people responsible need to be charged criminally. I am sure they are suffering far worse punishment than any jail time could impose.

...Orygunner...

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No, you misunderstood. I was not referring to a law, but a rule or even rule of thumb. So that we won't have to wait for the father that thinks it's OK to let their 8 year old shoot an RPG. For example; If the show's shooting line had a 'no persons under 12 allowed shooting' policy, then bad decisionslike this wouldn't happen.

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Paul Volk wrote:

Orygunner wrote:

Paul Volk wrote:

...
They handled them well enough, and the event was safe, but this may be an example for a need for some sort of regulation tohinder a potential future negligent situation.

Click to expand...

I hope you're not serious that we actually need some sort of law to take care of this problem. How many children is THIS going to save? How often does government actually SOLVE problems with more laws?

We all (should) know that the cause of this tragedy isn't the submachine gun. It isn't lack of federal laws that caused this tragic accident. It was negligence on the part of whoever was responsible for that gun and that child.

I see this event as an identical lack of responsibility as letting an 8 year old inexperienced rider on a Banshee ATV (one of the most powerful sport quads they make). Something too powerful and too hard for a youngster to handle by themselves. Not to say they couldn't safely ride it with direct immediate supervision, like if a responsible adult rides on the ATV with them (or in this case, firing the Uzi with a responsible adult that has a firm grip on the gun).

We definitely don't need any new laws or regulations. We have too much government control in our lives already. I also don't think the people responsible need to be charged criminally. I am sure they are suffering far worse punishment than any jail time could impose.

...Orygunner...

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No, you misunderstood. I was not referring to a law, but a rule or even rule of thumb. So that we won't have to wait for the father that thinks it's OK to let their 8 year old shoot an RPG. For example; If the show's shooting line had a 'no persons under 12 allowed shooting' policy, then bad decisionslike this wouldn't happen.

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Sorry about the misunderstanding. When I hear "regulation," the word "Government" automatically springs to mind

Now I do disagree with an age limit. Experience & physical ability is the most important consideration, not physical age.

Take anything that requires a degree of skill and experience. Start a child on a path early enough, they can be quite experienced at an age other people think is insanely stupid to allow it.

My kids were both riding bikes without training wheels before their 3rd birthdays. They were on roller skates at age 4. 90cc ATVs at 6 and 7, and were riding 200cc and 250cc ATVs at ages 8 and 9. My 11 year old now rides a 100cc 2 stroke dirt bike on the dunes and can almost outrun ME on my YFZ 450 Quad. I helped my daughter shoot my .22 pistol at age 5 (with me holding onto it).A few years ago I started them shooting .22 rifles, then .22 pistols, and both of them have shot a 9mm and .45 pistol.

There's probably more than a few people out there that would suggest I'M an irresponsible parent for any number of those choices. Others would chuckle at my kids abilities because maybe they started their kid dirt bike racing at age 4 and at 8 their little Travis Pastrana can run circles around my boy.

In ALL these things, immediate close supervision is critical. As time goes on and skill and ability improve, less supervision is necessary, but for some inherently dangerous things, such as shooting and riding the power toys, adult supervision is always close by.

It will be interesting to see more details on this tragic event to see what choices led to it. Was the boy an experienced shooter, or a relative newbie? Had he ever fired a full-auto weapon before? Was it his first time with the Uzi? Us all sitting at our keyboards armchair quarterbacking it will never find the solution, it is they that must figure it out exactly what went wrong to help make sure it never happens again.

I have NO DOUBT thatthere are SOME8 year olds that CAN handle a fully automatic machine pistol, with enough experience, skill, and physical strength, but certainly not ANY 8 year old fits that description. It is the parent's responsibility to know for sure if that is the case, and either choose not to allow it, or to make sure appropriate safety measures are in place if they do.

So before we all assume this and that about what happened, and spout opinions like irresponsible and idiotic, let's get the rest of the facts of the matter and see if this was really negligence, or if other factors may be involved.

...Orygunner...

Edit: OK. I hadn't read the news article and just read that it was the first fully automatic weapon he had ever shot, but he had experience shooting rifles and handguns before. Based on information gathered from the article, it seems it may have been an issue of strength and/or training on holding the weapon propertly, but as I said, all facts are not out yet.

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Orygunner wrote:

Now I do disagree with an age limit. Experience & physical ability is the most important consideration, not physical age.

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I agree. I'm sure many 8 year olds have the training and experience to handle an assult weapon, but the fact is that these gun shows aren't requiring proof of either. An age limit may not be the perfect solution, but when the boy's father isn't responsible enough to make the proper judgement call, then what else can you do?

Fortunately, no one else was stuck by a stray bullet from this 8 year old's mis-handled uzi.

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Plenty of young kids attend these sort of events and even fire the weapons with no problems.

I was at Knob Creek two weeks back, and saw some young ones handling weapons with aplomb. A Youtube video I posted shows a quick shot of a roughly eight year old kid firing some sort of SMG (Uzi, I believe) at the lower range. Definitely some muzzle climb, but he seemed to handle it OK.

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http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D94369V00&show_article=1&catnum=1

WESTFIELD, Mass. (AP) - With an instructor watching, an 8-year-old boy at a gun fair aimed an Uzi at a pumpkin and pulled the trigger as his dad reached for a camera. It was his first time shooting a fully automatic machine gun, and the recoil of the weapon was too much for him. He lost control and fatally shooting himself in the head.

Now gun safety experts—and some gun enthusiasts at the club where the shooting happened—are wondering why such a young child was allowed to fire a weapon used in war. Local, state and federal authorities are also investigating whether everyone involved had proper licenses or if anyone committed a criminal act.
"It's easy to lose control of a weapon like that ... they are used on a battleground for a very good reason," said Jerry Belair, a spokesman for Stop Handgun Violence, based in Newton, Mass. "It's to shoot as many times as you possibly can without having to reload at an enemy that's approaching. It's not a toy. It's not something to play with."

Police said Christopher Bizilj (Bah-SEAL) of Ashford, Conn., was pronounced dead at Baystate Medical Center in Springfield, Mass., on Sunday afternoon, shortly after firing a 9mm micro Uzi submachine gun at the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman's Club, co-sponsored by C.O.P. Firearms & Training.

"The weapon was loaded and ready to fire," Westfield police Lt. Hipolito Nunez said. "The 8-year-old victim had the Uzi and as he was firing the weapon, the front end of the weapon went up with the backfire and he ended up receiving a round in his head."

Nunez said the investigation is continuing.

Christopher, a third-grader, was attending the show with his father and sixth-grade brother, Colin. Christopher had fired handguns and rifles before, but Sunday was his first time firing an automatic weapon, said his father, Charles Bizilj.

Bizilj told the Boston Globe he was about 10 feet behind his son and reaching for his camera when the weapon fired. He said his family avoided the larger weapons, but he let his son try the Uzi because it's a small weapon with little recoil.

"This accident was truly a mystery to me," said Bizilj, director of emergency medicine at Johnson Memorial Hospital in Stafford, Conn. "This is a horrible event, a horrible travesty, and I really don't know why it happened."

Police are calling the shooting an accident but are investigating whether everyone connected with the incident had proper weapons permits. Massachusetts requires licenses to own firearms, and the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives issues different licenses to possess machine guns.

The machine gun shoot drew hundreds of people from as far away as Maine and Virginia. An advertisement said it would include machine gun demonstrations and rentals and free handgun lessons.

"It's all legal & fun—No permits or licenses required!!!!" reads the ad, posted on the club's Web site.

"You will be accompanied to the firing line with a Certified Instructor to guide you. But You Are In Control—"FULL AUTO ROCK & ROLL," the ad said.

The ad also said children under 16 would be admitted free, and both adults and children were offered free .22-caliber pistol and rifle shooting.

Massachusetts has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. It is legal in Massachusetts for children to fire a weapon if they have permission from a parent or legal guardian and they are supervised by a properly certified and licensed instructor, Nunez said. The name of the instructor who was with the boy at the time was not released.

"We do not know at this time the full facts of this incident," Nunez said Monday.

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Why should a child be taught how to shoot something like this? You're right about the negligence part, but for the wrong reasons.

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This is a not uncommon occurrence at a machine gun shoot. While I believe that 8 y.o. is generally a bit young I don't know the specifics of the child or parent involved. For whatever reason the parent feltconfident the child would be able to safely operate the gun. Unfortunately for everyone, he was wrong.

Talk about Negligent Discharge! The boy's father had no damn business letting him shoot this weapon! I think the sponsoring organization should be taken to task as well!

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The reason (other than sesationalism) that this is news is because it is so extremely rare as to make it newsworthy. It's like spotting an albino tiger in the wild - possible, but so incredibly unlikely as to be practically impossible. Nevertheless, it did happen.

Learning to shoot a (single shot) .22 is to riding a bicycle sans training wheels as shooting an uzi is to riding a motorcycle!

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Your analogy is somewhat flawed. I have motorcycling friends who have 6 & 7 y.o.'s on powered 2 wheelers. Everyone loses the training wheels at a different point. Perhaps for you it was 10, perhaps for me 12, maybe for others it's 5... Everyone is different and a one size fits all solution harms everyone yet helps nobody.

Let's go ahead and get it out of the way ... "if it saves just one life" and "it's for the children".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the uzi has a forward grip; rather a forend like a rifle. At least the Mac family comes with a strap. I replaced that with a folding forward grip myself.

In the interest of full disclosure I've instructed at least 6 minors on different fully automaticguns. None of them were this young mind you but I have done it. My experience has been that they have been very attentive to the 3 rules, highly motivated to do well, and very, very cautious.In fact, all of them were more safe than some adultsI've seen at the range.

Freedom necessarily includes risk.