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Thread: Buddy denied CCW in Newport News

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    My friend was denied a CCW in Newport news because the judge said that his DD Form 214 was not sufficient proof of a gun safety course.

    Can anyone point me to the appropriate location (Official VA website) that states that a DD Form 214 is in fact sufficient proof of training?

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    18.2-308(G) http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM

    G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

    5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214

    .

    A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.


    ETA - link added
    James Reynolds

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    Thanks Proshooter.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    my pleasure....


    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    18.2-308(G) http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM

    G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

    5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214

    .

    A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.


    ETA - link added
    Using my DD214s (USN) as an example, I'd have to ask "So where does it say on here that you have received any firearms training?". The reason I didn't submit them for my CHP was because the clerk told me that the judge would accept same if they showed that some kind of training had been completed.

    They (DD214s) also don't help you learn anything about firearms laws, which can cause people more trouble than lack of competency.

    The judge gets to decide what meets the standard of "required proof".
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Taclead wrote:
    My friend was denied a CCW in Newport news
    That's because the State of Virginia only issues CHP's.

    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Campaign Veteran Nelson_Muntz's Avatar
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    2a4all wrote:
    ...or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214

    Using my DD214s (USN) as an example, I'd have to ask "So where does it say on here that you have received any firearms training?".

    The answer: the DD214 does not have to say that you recieved firearms training. As noted above, it must provide proof of honorable discharge, only.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Taclead wrote:
    Can anyone point me to the appropriate location (Official VA website) that states that a DD Form 214 is in fact sufficient proof of training?
    Your friend can choose his battle's.. just have him go to: www.virginiachptraining.com and get it in an hour for $39.99.

    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Sheriff wrote:
    2a4all wrote:
    The judge gets to decide what meets the standard of "required proof".
    I disagree.

    The law is very clear....

    5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through

    * participation in organized shooting competition or

    * current military service or

    * proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214
    I'm sure that the judge would be impressed!
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    Wouldn't VCDL help out with this? It's important that judges that presume they're above the law have their asses handed to them.

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    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
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    The judgeshould be impressed with the laws of this state that I am quite sure he swore an oath to uphold. http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_Denied.shtmLists the procedures that your friend may choose to follow.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    TexasNative wrote:
    Wouldn't VCDL help out with this? It's important that judges that presume they're above the law have their asses handed to them.
    I can't speak for VCDL on this. Circuit Court Judges are appointed by the GA, so handing one of them his/her ass could be tricky.

    However, there is the right of appeal.

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    D. "...The court shall issue the permit and notify the State Police of the issuance of the permit within 45 days of receipt of the completed application unless it is determined that the applicant is disqualified. Any order denying issuance of the permit shall state the basis for the denial of the permit and the applicant's right to and the requirements for perfecting an appeal of such order pursuant to subsection L."
    L. Any person denied a permit to carry a concealed handgun under the provisions of this section may present a petition for review to the Court of Appeals. The petition for review shall be filed within 60 days of the expiration of the time for requesting an ore tenus hearing pursuant to subsection I, or if an ore tenus hearing is requested, within 60 days of the entry of the final order of the circuit court following the hearing. The petition shall be accompanied by a copy of the original papers filed in the circuit court, including a copy of the order of the circuit court denying the permit. Subject to the provisions of subsection B of § 17.1-410, the decision of the Court of Appeals or judge shall be final. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, if the decision to deny the permit is reversed upon appeal, taxable costs incurred by the person shall be paid by the Commonwealth.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Taclead wrote:
    My friend was denied a CCW in Newport news because the judge said that his DD Form 214 was not sufficient proof of a gun safety course.

    Can anyone point me to the appropriate location (Official VA website) that states that a DD Form 214 is in fact sufficient proof of training?
    Did your friend have his Ore Tenus on this yet? He should and point out everything above. He MUST accept that DD-214 by LAW.

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    2a4all wrote:
    ...or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214

    Using my DD214s (USN) as an example, I'd have to ask "So where does it say on here that you have received any firearms training?".
    Firearms training is implied as a course of basic training, regardless of branch of service. Dear God, somebody *please* tell me this is still true!

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    ed wrote:
    Taclead wrote:
    Can anyone point me to the appropriate location (Official VA website) that states that a DD Form 214 is in fact sufficient proof of training?
    Your friend can choose his battle's.. just have him go to: http://www.virginiachptraining.com and get it in an hour for $39.99.
    Yes, the friend can do that. But doing so does nothing to help correct the problem of the judge who is not following the law.

    I would encourage the friend to pursue having the judge follow the law, though in the end it is the friend's choice of course.



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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Just a thought about the DD-214. There is a copy that shows your discharge status (Honorable, other than honorable, bad conduct) and then there is a copy that does not show your discharge status. Before you friend asks for the hearing, make surehe submitted the copy that shows an honorable discharge.

    I would wait for confirmation that the correct copy was submitted before we find fault with the judge. Maybe the judge was just following the law. I point this out because I almost made this very mistake with my application.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Well, the VCDL website has this to say:

    If you are having a problem with getting your permit or de facto permit, the Circuit Courts in Virginia are supervised by the Chief Justice of the Virginia Supreme Court and he has expressed concerns about the way the various Circuit Courts have been flagrantly violating the law. It is strongly suggested that you complain directly to him. Be polite and provide as much detail as possible - names, dates, comments made by officials, documents provided by officials, etc.:

    Chief Justice
    Supreme Court of Virginia
    100 North Ninth Street, Fifth Floor
    Richmond, VA 23219
    I have no more information on it than that. You may want to contact VCDL directly; perhaps they can give more specific advice.

    Even judges have bosses, in practice if not in theory.

    regards,

    GR

    PS: I mean no offense by this, but remember two things:

    1. Be very polite to the Chief Justice.

    2. If you end up talking to what you believe to be some "underling" in the CJ's office, be just as polite to that person. They may have more influence on what the Chief Justice thinks than you expect. I am not joking.

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    provide the person's name, when he filed for his permit, when he was denied, and I will call and see what I can do. I have spoken to the Chief clerk of the court in the past and had success.

    I will do what I can to help. I live here in Newport News and am the Peninsula coordinator for the VCDL.

    I will need as much information as possible though, otherwise I will just be spinning my wheels.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    6L6GC wrote:
    provide the person's name, when he filed for his permit, when he was denied, and I will call and see what I can do. I have spoken to the Chief clerk of the court in the past and had success.

    I will do what I can to help. I live here in Newport News and am the Peninsula coordinator for the VCDL.

    I will need as much information as possible though, otherwise I will just be spinning my wheels.
    This effort could be a big help. The Ore Tenus route will almost certainly require an attorney.

    If at all possible, provide 6L6GC with a copy of the Circuit Court's denial letter.

    When I submitted my CHP application, the clerk told me that the judge would evaluate the result of my bkgnd check and determine whether to issue me a permit. I informed the clerk that unless my check revealed a problem, the judge had no choice but to issue the permit. She didn't press the point, but from her tone, she gave the impression that (she believed) the judge always had the final say.

    It is known that some Newport News judges do not like to sign CHPs.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Not being recently discharged from militaryservice and judges claiming handgun safety training expired werereasons that 18.2-308.G was ammendedto add thatproof of competancy does not expire.

    From VCDL Update from 7-1-08 regarding changes in Virginia law:

    *******************************************
    1. New laws effective July 1
    *******************************************

    * A person can renew his CHP between 90 and 180 days before it
    expires. If he does so, the new permit will become effective from the
    date the old permit expires, giving the permit holder a full five
    years. If you renew after the minimum 90 days, then renewals are like
    they have been - you might lose some days off your expiring permit.

    * If a person moves from one location to another in Virginia, you can
    now get a new permit with a change of address for $10 by applying to
    the Circuit Court where the permit was issued. REMEMBER: there is no
    requirement to get a change of address on your permit, but if you want
    to do so, you now can.

    * The law was clarified that required training to get a CHP never
    expires. Therefore someone's DD-214 from 1970 is still as valid as
    one from 2008.


    Also Judge Pugh of the Newport News Circuit Court denied someone who wasactive duty a permit because he was not going to move here when he retired. Appelate court ordered judge to issue the permit.

    http://www.speedscape.com/cgi-bin/ws...mp;FILTER=2006

    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Sheriff wrote:
    2a4all wrote:
    I informed the clerk that unless my check revealed a problem, the judge had no choice but to issue the permit. She didn't press the point, but from her tone, she gave the impression that (she believed) the judge always had the final say.
    The birth of this subject thread sorta indicates some judges ageree with the clerk you spoke with.


    And I applied for my CHP in Mar 2008!

    I've been told that the NN judges rotate the permit task among themselves, I suppose, to allow those who don't like the idea to avoid the problem. However, it's not unheard of for a judge to deny with the (unspoken) notion that if the applicant really wants a permit, then (s)he can appeal. (Let them eat cake?)

    Judge Pugh lives down the street from me. I've ordered a VCDL license plate. Hmm...
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    As much as people complain about the process in SC going through SLED and the time (usually 60-90 days) I think that it should be a state function rather than a local function. This process leaves too much personal influence on the process.

    In SC SLED (the state) receives the application and the local sheriff is notified. He has 7 days to respond that he thinks the permit should be denied. If he signs off on it or doesn nothing then it is considered approval from the local sheriff. This does increase the processing time but everything can be handled by mail. There is not appointment or interview. The state takes care of everything and there may be some cases but I have not heard of any such confusion about what is required etc. Renewals can be done on-line. I know the SC system is not perfect but it sure seem better than the stuff some of you have to put up with. When I took my CWP class the instructor had a Deputy come out and do the finger prints, took a picture fo me, helped me make sure the application was complete and even provided an envelope addressed correctly. When I left the class all I had to do was put a stamp on the envelope and 60 days later I had my permit. The instructor even went over any problems in our background that may have raised flags.

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Most applicants for CHP in Va. do not have this type of problem. I'd guess that 99% + sail through as they should.

    Hold this judge and his judicial whims to the fire. He knows he is not following the law.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
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    Thank you all for your input. I did not have these dificulties with my Hampton submission so I was suprised to hear this. I have provided 6L6GC's contact info to my friend and will allow him to decide where to go form here.



    Tac

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