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Buddy denied CCW in Newport News

T

Taclead

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My friend was denied a CCW in Newport news because the judge said that his DD Form 214 was not sufficient proof of a gun safety course.:banghead:

Can anyone point me to the appropriate location (Official VA website) that states that a DD Form 214 is in fact sufficient proof of training?
 
ProShooter

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18.2-308(G) http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM

G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214

.

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.


ETA - link added
 
2a4all

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ProShooter wrote:
18.2-308(G) http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM

G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214

.

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.


ETA - link added
Click to expand...
Using my DD214s (USN) as an example, I'd have to ask "So where does it say on here that you have received any firearms training?". The reason I didn't submit them for my CHP was because the clerk told me that the judge would accept same if they showed that some kind of training had been completed.

They (DD214s) also don't help you learn anything about firearms laws, which can cause people more trouble than lack of competency.

The judge gets to decide what meets the standard of "required proof".
 
Nelson_Muntz

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2a4all wrote:
...or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214

Using my DD214s (USN) as an example, I'd have to ask "So where does it say on here that you have received any firearms training?".
Click to expand...


The answer: the DD214 does not have to say that you recieved firearms training. As noted above, it must provide proof of honorable discharge, only.
 
Sheriff

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2a4all wrote:
The judge gets to decide what meets the standard of "required proof".
Click to expand...

I disagree.

The law is very clear....

5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through

* participation in organized shooting competition or

* current military service or

* proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214
 
2a4all

2a4all

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Sheriff wrote:
2a4all wrote:
The judge gets to decide what meets the standard of "required proof".
Click to expand...

I disagree.

The law is very clear....

5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through

* participation in organized shooting competition or

* current military service or

* proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214
Click to expand...
I'm sure that the judge would be impressed!
 
TexasNative

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Wouldn't VCDL help out with this? It's important that judges that presume they're above the law have their asses handed to them.
 
Sheriff

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2a4all wrote:
I'm sure that the judge would be impressed!
Click to expand...

He should be. :)

The judge, in my opinion, is overlooking the key words - "armed services".

Members of the "armed services" receive firearms training.
 
2a4all

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TexasNative wrote:
Wouldn't VCDL help out with this? It's important that judges that presume they're above the law have their asses handed to them.
Click to expand...
I can't speak for VCDL on this. Circuit Court Judges are appointed by the GA, so handing one of them his/her ass could be tricky.

However, there is the right of appeal.

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

D. "...The court shall issue the permit and notify the State Police of the issuance of the permit within 45 days of receipt of the completed application unless it is determined that the applicant is disqualified. Any order denying issuance of the permit shall state the basis for the denial of the permit and the applicant's right to and the requirements for perfecting an appeal of such order pursuant to subsection L."
​
L. Any person denied a permit to carry a concealed handgun under the provisions of this section may present a petition for review to the Court of Appeals. The petition for review shall be filed within 60 days of the expiration of the time for requesting an ore tenus hearing pursuant to subsection I, or if an ore tenus hearing is requested, within 60 days of the entry of the final order of the circuit court following the hearing. The petition shall be accompanied by a copy of the original papers filed in the circuit court, including a copy of the order of the circuit court denying the permit. Subject to the provisions of subsection B of § 17.1-410, the decision of the Court of Appeals or judge shall be final. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, if the decision to deny the permit is reversed upon appeal, taxable costs incurred by the person shall be paid by the Commonwealth.

​
 
V

VCDL President

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Taclead wrote:
My friend was denied a CCW in Newport news because the judge said that his DD Form 214 was not sufficient proof of a gun safety course.:banghead:

Can anyone point me to the appropriate location (Official VA website) that states that a DD Form 214 is in fact sufficient proof of training?
Click to expand...
Did your friend have his Ore Tenus on this yet? He should and point out everything above. He MUST accept that DD-214 by LAW.
 
A

Armed

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2a4all wrote:
...or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214

Using my DD214s (USN) as an example, I'd have to ask "So where does it say on here that you have received any firearms training?".
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Firearms training is implied as a course of basic training, regardless of branch of service. Dear God, somebody *please* tell me this is still true!
 
DrMark

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ed wrote:
Taclead wrote:
Can anyone point me to the appropriate location (Official VA website) that states that a DD Form 214 is in fact sufficient proof of training?
Click to expand...
Your friend can choose his battle's.. just have him go to: http://www.virginiachptraining.com and get it in an hour for $39.99.
Click to expand...

Yes, the friend can do that. But doing so does nothing to help correct the problem of the judge who is not following the law.

I would encourage the friend to pursue having the judge follow the law, though in the end it is the friend's choice of course.
 
Thundar

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Just a thought about the DD-214. There is a copy that shows your discharge status (Honorable, other than honorable, bad conduct) and then there is a copy that does not show your discharge status. Before you friend asks for the hearing, make surehe submitted the copy that shows an honorable discharge.

I would wait for confirmation that the correct copy was submitted before we find fault with the judge. Maybe the judge was just following the law. I point this out because I almost made this very mistake with my application.
 
G

Gentleman Ranker

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Well, the VCDL website has this to say:

If you are having a problem with getting your permit or de facto permit, the Circuit Courts in Virginia are supervised by the Chief Justice of the Virginia Supreme Court and he has expressed concerns about the way the various Circuit Courts have been flagrantly violating the law. It is strongly suggested that you complain directly to him. Be polite and provide as much detail as possible - names, dates, comments made by officials, documents provided by officials, etc.:

Chief Justice
Supreme Court of Virginia
100 North Ninth Street, Fifth Floor
Richmond, VA 23219
Click to expand...
I have no more information on it than that. You may want to contact VCDL directly; perhaps they can give more specific advice.

Even judges have bosses, in practice if not in theory.

regards,

GR

PS: I mean no offense by this, but remember two things:

1. Be very polite to the Chief Justice.

2. If you end up talking to what you believe to be some "underling" in the CJ's office, be just as polite to that person. They may have more influence on what the Chief Justice thinks than you expect. I am not joking.
 
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