Buddy denied CCW in Newport News

Sheriff · Oct 27, 2008

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Gentleman Ranker wrote:

Well, the VCDL website has this to say:

....Chief Justice of the Virginia Supreme Court and he has expressed concerns about the way the various Circuit Courts have been flagrantly violating the law....

Click to expand...

We had a Circuit Court judge who was letting applications pile up in the in-box on his secretary's desk without approving them.

It became a real big problem once a former Navy Seal team member, a/k/a former Secret Service agent, spoke up annd filed a complaint.

6L6GC · Oct 27, 2008

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provide the person's name, when he filed for his permit, when he was denied, and I will call and see what I can do. I have spoken to the Chief clerk of the court in the past and had success.

I will do what I can to help. I live here in Newport News and am the Peninsula coordinator for the VCDL.

I will need as much information as possible though, otherwise I will just be spinning my wheels.

2a4all · Oct 27, 2008

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6L6GC wrote:

provide the person's name, when he filed for his permit, when he was denied, and I will call and see what I can do. I have spoken to the Chief clerk of the court in the past and had success.

I will do what I can to help. I live here in Newport News and am the Peninsula coordinator for the VCDL.

I will need as much information as possible though, otherwise I will just be spinning my wheels.

This effort could be a big help. The Ore Tenus route will almost certainly require an attorney.

If at all possible, provide 6L6GC with a copy of the Circuit Court's denial letter.

When I submitted my CHP application, the clerk told me that the judge would evaluate the result of my bkgnd check and determine whether to issue me a permit. I informed the clerk that unless my check revealed a problem, the judge had no choice but to issue the permit. She didn't press the point, but from her tone, she gave the impression that (she believed) the judge always had the final say.

It is known that some Newport News judges do not like to sign CHPs.

mobeewan · Oct 27, 2008

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Not being recently discharged from militaryservice and judges claiming handgun safety training expired werereasons that 18.2-308.G was ammendedto add thatproof of competancy does not expire.

From VCDL Update from 7-1-08 regarding changes in Virginia law:

*******************************************
1. New laws effective July 1
*******************************************

* A person can renew his CHP between 90 and 180 days before it
expires. If he does so, the new permit will become effective from the
date the old permit expires, giving the permit holder a full five
years. If you renew after the minimum 90 days, then renewals are like
they have been - you might lose some days off your expiring permit.

* If a person moves from one location to another in Virginia, you can
now get a new permit with a change of address for $10 by applying to
the Circuit Court where the permit was issued. REMEMBER: there is no
requirement to get a change of address on your permit, but if you want
to do so, you now can.

* The law was clarified that required training to get a CHP never
expires. Therefore someone's DD-214 from 1970 is still as valid as
one from 2008.

Also Judge Pugh of the Newport News Circuit Court denied someone who wasactive duty a permit because he was not going to move here when he retired. Appelate court ordered judge to issue the permit.

http://www.speedscape.com/cgi-bin/wspd_cgi.sh/vcdl/vadetail.html?RECID=1236321&FILTER=2006

Sheriff · Oct 28, 2008

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2a4all wrote:

I informed the clerk that unless my check revealed a problem, the judge had no choice but to issue the permit. She didn't press the point, but from her tone, she gave the impression that (she believed) the judge always had the final say.

The birth of this subject thread sorta indicates some judges ageree with the clerk you spoke with.

2a4all · Oct 28, 2008

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Sheriff wrote:

2a4all wrote:

I informed the clerk that unless my check revealed a problem, the judge had no choice but to issue the permit. She didn't press the point, but from her tone, she gave the impression that (she believed) the judge always had the final say.

Click to expand...

The birth of this subject thread sorta indicates some judges ageree with the clerk you spoke with.

And I applied for my CHP in Mar 2008!

I've been told that the NN judges rotate the permit task among themselves, I suppose, to allow those who don't like the idea to avoid the problem. However, it's not unheard of for a judge to deny with the (unspoken) notion that if the applicant really wants a permit, then (s)he can appeal. (Let them eat cake?)

Judge Pugh lives down the street from me. I've ordered a VCDL license plate. Hmm...

PT111 · Oct 28, 2008

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As much as people complain about the process in SC going through SLED and the time (usually 60-90 days) I think that it should be a state function rather than a local function. This process leaves too much personal influence on the process.

In SC SLED (the state) receives the application and the local sheriff is notified. He has 7 days to respond that he thinks the permit should be denied. If he signs off on it or doesn nothing then it is considered approval from the local sheriff. This does increase the processing time but everything can be handled by mail. There is not appointment or interview. The state takes care of everything and there may be some cases but I have not heard of any such confusion about what is required etc. Renewals can be done on-line. I know the SC system is not perfect but it sure seem better than the stuff some of you have to put up with. When I took my CWP class the instructor had a Deputy come out and do the finger prints, took a picture fo me, helped me make sure the application was complete and even provided an envelope addressed correctly. When I left the class all I had to do was put a stamp on the envelope and 60 days later I had my permit. The instructor even went over any problems in our background that may have raised flags.

Grapeshot · Oct 28, 2008

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Most applicants for CHP in Va. do not have this type of problem. I'd guess that 99% + sail through as they should.

Hold this judge and his judicial whims to the fire. He knows he is not following the law.

Yata hey

Taclead · Oct 28, 2008

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Thank you all for your input. I did not have these dificulties with my Hampton submission so I was suprised to hear this. I have provided 6L6GC's contact info to my friend and will allow him to decide where to go form here.

Tac

Mike · Oct 28, 2008

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2a4all wrote:

ProShooter wrote:

18.2-308(G) http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM

G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214

.

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.

ETA - link added

Click to expand...

Using my DD214s (USN) as an example, I'd have to ask "So where does it say on here that you have received any firearms training?". The reason I didn't submit them for my CHP was because the clerk told me that the judge would accept same if they showed that some kind of training had been completed.

They (DD214s) also don't help you learn anything about firearms laws, which can cause people more trouble than lack of competency.

The judge gets to decide what meets the standard of "required proof".

uh, no, not when it comes to a DD For 214 showing honorable discharge. Code Section 18.2-308(G).

Mike · Oct 28, 2008

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Taclead wrote:

My friend was denied a CCW in Newport news because the judge said that his DD Form 214 was not sufficient proof of a gun safety course.:banghead:

Can anyone point me to the appropriate location (Official VA website) that states that a DD Form 214 is in fact sufficient proof of training?

What was the name of the judge??

Grapeshot · Oct 28, 2008

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2a4all wrote:

The judge gets to decide what meets the standard of "required proof".

From where does this BS originate? The judge is to accept or reject based on facts and the law, not personal opinion or prejudice. I detest judges that try to legislate from the bench or is it such a new law (sarcasim) that he hadn't heard ot it yet.

The law is quite clear - see ProShooters reference prior.

Yata hey

mobeewan · Oct 28, 2008

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Grapeshot wrote:

2a4all wrote:

The judge gets to decide what meets the standard of "required proof".

Click to expand...

From where does this BS originate? The judge is to accept or reject based on facts and the law, not personal opinion or prejudice. I detest judges that try to legislate from the bench or is it such a new law (sarcasim) that he hadn't heard ot it yet.

The law is quite clear - see ProShooters reference prior.

Yata hey

Exactly why shall issue became the law and the law has been ammended several times. This has been because the judges were deciding "what meets the standard of "required proof" and requiring additional proof that did not exist as well. The history of shall issue all started to make activist judges issue CHP's that they refused to issue not to grant them leway.

Skeptic · Oct 28, 2008

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Armed wrote:

2a4all wrote:

...or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214

Using my DD214s (USN) as an example, I'd have to ask "So where does it say on here that you have received any firearms training?".

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Firearms training is implied as a course of basic training, regardless of branch of service. Dear God, somebody *please* tell me this is still true!

For now.

Not sure about the coming Civilian National Security Force though. They might just have clubs and tasers. :celebrate

2a4all · Oct 28, 2008

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PT111 wrote:

As much as people complain about the process in SC going through SLED and the time (usually 60-90 days) I think that it should be a state function rather than a local function. This process leaves too much personal influence on the process.

In SC SLED (the state) receives the application and the local sheriff is notified. He has 7 days to respond that he thinks the permit should be denied. If he signs off on it or doesn nothing then it is considered approval from the local sheriff. This does increase the processing time but everything can be handled by mail. There is not appointment or interview. The state takes care of everything and there may be some cases but I have not heard of any such confusion about what is required etc. Renewals can be done on-line. I know the SC system is not perfect but it sure seem better than the stuff some of you have to put up with. When I took my CWP class the instructor had a Deputy come out and do the finger prints, took a picture fo me, helped me make sure the application was complete and even provided an envelope addressed correctly. When I left the class all I had to do was put a stamp on the envelope and 60 days later I had my permit. The instructor even went over any problems in our background that may have raised flags.

I agree with this concept. If "shall issue" is a statewide decree, then the process should be handled at the state level. Perhaps by the State Police, as they do the checks anyway. BTW, sounds like you had a good CWP class.

I wonder if some judges' refusals to issue are a means of protest to achieve this?

Just to be clear, I'm fully aware of what the law says. I was just trying to relate a perspective that permeates this area. Every attorney I know has always maintained that "it's the judges court, s/he can do what they want.", a lesson some say they learned very early in their legal careers. FWIW, a (very) few judges have not been reappointed because they've gone a bit too far.

PT111 · Oct 28, 2008

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Yes SC is a shall issue state. I really don't understand this about in a shall issue state having to be interviewed or a local judge or sheriff issuing the permit. It is a state permit and should be handled by the state since they set the requirements. If a person meets the requirements then why should you have to beg a judge to process it. As you say the state police run the backgound check. In SC SLED does the background check including your driving record. 6 tickets in 5 years could be grounds for refusal. They run your fingerprints through whoever and if everything is clean they issue the permit and send it in the mail to you. Sometimes lawmakers overthink things and really screw it up. I could see the personal interviews and local input for a may issue deal but not for shall issue.

Skeptic · Oct 28, 2008

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2a4all wrote:

I agree with this concept. If "shall issue" is a statewide decree, then the process should be handled at the state level. Perhaps by the State Police, as they do the checks anyway. .

The circuit court is a state court, so it is handled at the state level. It is just not centralized.

Given my experience with the centralized bureaucracy in Virginia, I am going to say "no thanks".

2a4all · Oct 28, 2008

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Skeptic wrote:

2a4all wrote:

I agree with this concept. If "shall issue" is a statewide decree, then the process should be handled at the state level. Perhaps by the State Police, as they do the checks anyway. .

Click to expand...

The circuit court is a state court, so it is handled at the state level. It is just not centralized.

Given my experience with the centralized bureaucracy in Virginia, I am going to say "no thanks".

The circuit courts are"local" in their politics, which is the cause of the issue discussed in this thread. The judges are appointed primarily by political whim (appointment recomendations reserved for the majority delegate/senator from that district).

My experiences with the "centralized bureaucracy" (Taxation, DMV, DOIFG) have all been good (33+ years). Centralization of this process would vastly improve its consistency, provide central verification (for out of state querys) and streamline the renewal and update (e.g. change of address) processes. Why is the fingerprinting requirement for new permits left to the discretion of localities? It should be everyone or no one.

no carry permit ? · Oct 28, 2008

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Armed wrote:

2a4all wrote:

...or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214

Using my DD214s (USN) as an example, I'd have to ask "So where does it say on here that you have received any firearms training?".

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Firearms training is implied as a course of basic training, regardless of branch of service. Dear God, somebody *please* tell me this is still true!

LOL, that's funny ! Why would anyone assume that the ARMED Forces are actually armed ? :banghead:

Maybe the judge thinks the applicant was a nurse, like Klinger on Mash.

Armed · Oct 28, 2008

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no carry permit ? wrote:

Armed wrote:

2a4all wrote:

...or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services; i.e a 214

Using my DD214s (USN) as an example, I'd have to ask "So where does it say on here that you have received any firearms training?".

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Firearms training is implied as a course of basic training, regardless of branch of service. Dear God, somebody *please* tell me this is still true!

Click to expand...

LOL, that's funny ! Why would anyone assume that the ARMED Forces are actually armed ? :banghead:

Maybe the judge thinks the applicant was a nurse, like Klinger on Mash.

HA! Yeah, but even Klinger stood post with an M1A1, whiledressed to the nine's - heels, dress, and all... :lol:

Buddy denied CCW in Newport News

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