Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Open Carry without CPL?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Auburn Hills, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    19

    Post imported post

    Hi I'm new to this site, Discovered it abouta month ago. I've been doing some reading and figuring out the laws.

    I was wondering how people that are OCing w/o cpl are transporting. It seems I can't even go to a OC event without a CPL or having someone with a CPL bring my gun. Is it even worth trying to OC w/o CPL? About all I can do is open carry at the range. Or walk everywhere.

    Any insight would be nice I don't need a concealed weapon charge on my record.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Columbus, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    31

    Post imported post

    LittleMan wrote:
    Hi I'm new to this site, Discovered it abouta month ago. I've been doing some reading and figuring out the laws.

    I was wondering how people that are OCing w/o cpl are transporting. It seems I can't even go to a OC event without a CPL or having someone with a CPL bring my gun. Is it even worth trying to OC w/o CPL? About all I can do is open carry at the range. Or walk everywhere.

    Any insight would be nice I don't need a concealed weapon charge on my record.
    Please see below an excerpt from what Venator posted on the MOC link:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html



    Michigan State Police Web Site. Transporting a pistol in a motor vehicle?

    Answer A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle. The law defines ‘lawful purpose’ as: 1) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area. 2) While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair. 3) While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business. 4) While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol. 5) While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale. 6) While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted. 7) While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.



  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Silverwood, Michigan
    Posts
    720

    Post imported post

    LittleMan wrote:
    Hi I'm new to this site, Discovered it abouta month ago. I've been doing some reading and figuring out the laws.

    I was wondering how people that are OCing w/o cpl are transporting. It seems I can't even go to a OC event without a CPL or having someone with a CPL bring my gun. Is it even worth trying to OC w/o CPL? About all I can do is open carry at the range. Or walk everywhere.

    Any insight would be nice I don't need a concealed weapon charge on my record.
    Lock it up and transport as decribed by law, to where you wish to practice lawful OC. Upon arrival, keep BOTH feet on the ground and OUT of vehicle. Retrieve gun, load, holster and enjoy.

    DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer. BUT this is how those without a CPL are doing it. This is the EXACT way I personally did it until i received my CPL a few days ago.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Auburn Hills, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    19

    Post imported post

    Thank you for your reply. I have read the law it is very restrictive. It seems self defense isn't a Lawful Purpose. Or how about Exercising my right as a citizen.

    I've heard from a few people they would just lie to an officer if ever questioned while transporting. Like telling them they are on the way to a range or gun smith.

    Edited for spelling error


  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Silverwood, Michigan
    Posts
    720

    Post imported post

    LittleMan wrote:
    Thank you for your reply. I have read the law it is very restrictive. It seems self defense isn't a Lawful Purpose. Or how about Excersizing my right as a citizen.

    I've heard from a few people they would just lie to an officer if ever questioned while transporting. Like telling them they are on the way to a range or gun smith.
    The way it was presented to me was that the numbered 1 - 7 list is not an all inclusive list. That ANY transport without malicious intent is legal.

    Once again...I am not a lawyer, but as stated in my previous post, that's how it's done.

    p.s. I don't recommend lieing to the man. Put it in its case. LOCK the case. Put case in trunk. Drive like a responsible person would drive, No need to pull you over. Problem solved.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
    Posts
    894

    Post imported post

    Hey, not to get this off topic, but LittleMan, you should fix your location. In your profile where you set your location, make sure you choose USA from the country drop down. After that, the state drop down will appear, and you can pick Michigan instead of typing it.

    Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Columbus, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    31

    Post imported post

    LittleMan wrote:
    Thank you for your reply. I have read the law it is very restrictive. It seems self defense isn't a Lawful Purpose. Or how about Exercising my right as a citizen.

    I've heard from a few people they would just lie to an officer if ever questioned while transporting. Like telling them they are on the way to a range or gun smith.

    Edited for spelling error
    I would definitely not lie to a LEO under any circumstance, that is just asking for problems. The next thing he will ask is where are you taking it. Then, (just playing devils advocate) he or she may follow you to see if you were telling the truth...

  8. #8
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    Why lie when you can say nothing at all? We have this awesome thing called the 5th amendment which can totally destory a cops attempts at a fishing expedition intended to bust you.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Plymouth/Canton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    252

    Post imported post

    AH.... FISHING!!!.... good times....

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,416

    Post imported post

    Keep in mind that if the handgun is loaded inside the vehicle, and is accessible, then it is concealed under Michigan law. This is a gray area. If the gun is in your trunk and you loaded it, then it's concealed.

    The lawyer who taught the legal section of our class told us of a person who was busted for having a loaded gun set on the tailgate of his pickup. The gun was in the vehicle, it was loaded, and it was accessible to the person. I don't know if they made the charges stick (not even sure if it's a true story), but gray areas like this are a good way to end up in court.

    Just because nobody has been charged under such actions, doesn't mean that you won't be the first.

    I wonder what they'd do if OC'ers just started loading and holstering in plain view (that way it couldn't be construed as concealed). Of course when doing so, one must make doubly sure to maintain safe handling (muzzle pointed directly down in front of toes, and cult of the rigid finger being the two main ones).

    I could just see it now. Two gentlemanly looking fellows get out parked next to Suzie Soccer Mom, and one politely engages SSM and offering help, while the other loads up and straps on right in front of her.

    LittleMan wrote:
    ...

    I've heard from a few people they would just lie to an officer if ever questioned while transporting. Like telling them they are on the way to a range or gun smith.


    As others have said, NEVER lie to the police. It will only give them one more crime to charge you with. Also, since that crime involves a firearm, I'm pretty sure it will affect your rights/privileges.

    Why would you think that you need to tell an officer the reason for transporting a gun in the first place?

  11. #11
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446

    Post imported post

    LittleMan wrote:
    Thank you for your reply. I have read the law it is very restrictive. It seems self defense isn't a Lawful Purpose. Or how about Exercising my right as a citizen.

    I've heard from a few people they would just lie to an officer if ever questioned while transporting. Like telling them they are on the way to a range or gun smith.

    Edited for spelling error
    The MSP position is that ANY lawful purpose is allowed and their troopers know this. But they also said some PDs think the list is ALL inclusive and will/try to prosecute. The last purpose listed is number 7- Which states from your home to ANY PRIVATE property. So if you are going to a store or to the mall or any private property you are okay.

    I also would not lie to the police, but you can say nothing and ask for an attorney if the situation gets out of hand.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Columbus, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    31

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    LittleMan wrote:
    Thank you for your reply. I have read the law it is very restrictive. It seems self defense isn't a Lawful Purpose. Or how about Exercising my right as a citizen.

    I've heard from a few people they would just lie to an officer if ever questioned while transporting. Like telling them they are on the way to a range or gun smith.

    Edited for spelling error
    The MSP position is that ANY lawful purpose is allowed and their troopers know this. But they also said some PDs think the list is ALL inclusive and will/try to prosecute. The last purpose listed is number 7- Which states from your home to ANY PRIVATE property. So if you are going to a store or to the mall or any private property you are okay.

    I also would not lie to the police, but you can say nothing and ask for an attorney if the situation gets out of hand.
    I would like to get others thoughts, or practices of people who are in a similar situation as I:

    I drive a pickup, I do not have a cover over the bed of my truck and don't want my firearms bouncing all over the bed. I normally carry my handgun in a case in the cab (unloaded and separate from my ammunition. Any thoughts on this? My local gun dealer said I should keep the ammunition in the glove box and the case with the gun in the back seat, (I have an extended cab truck) maybe I should put the case under the back seat? That would make it even more inaccessible.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
    Posts
    894

    Post imported post

    BigE wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    LittleMan wrote:
    Thank you for your reply.* I have read the law it is very restrictive.* It seems self defense isn't a Lawful Purpose.* Or how about Exercising my right as a citizen.

    I've heard from a few people they would just lie to an officer if ever questioned while transporting.* Like telling them they are on the way to a range or gun smith.

    Edited for spelling error
    The MSP position is that ANY lawful purpose is allowed and their troopers know this.* But they also said some PDs think the list is ALL inclusive and will/try to prosecute.* The last purpose listed is number 7- Which states from your home to ANY PRIVATE property.* So if you are going to a store or to the mall or any private property you are okay.*

    I also would not lie to the police, but you can say nothing and ask for an attorney if the situation gets out of hand.*
    I would like to get others thoughts, or practices of people who are in a similar situation as I:

    I drive a pickup, I do not have a cover over the bed of my truck and don't want my firearms bouncing all over the bed. I normally carry my handgun in a case in the cab (unloaded and separate from my ammunition. Any thoughts on this? My local gun dealer said I should keep the ammunition in the glove box and the case with the gun in the back seat, (I have an extended cab truck) maybe I should put the case under the back seat? That would make it even more inaccessible.*
    I would have the case locked and as far away from any occupants as possible. I'm not sure that you need it locked, but that might reduce the hassle if a cop wants to make an issue about it.

  14. #14
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446

    Post imported post

    SQLtables wrote:
    BigE wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    LittleMan wrote:
    Thank you for your reply. I have read the law it is very restrictive. It seems self defense isn't a Lawful Purpose. Or how about Exercising my right as a citizen.

    I've heard from a few people they would just lie to an officer if ever questioned while transporting. Like telling them they are on the way to a range or gun smith.

    Edited for spelling error
    The MSP position is that ANY lawful purpose is allowed and their troopers know this. But they also said some PDs think the list is ALL inclusive and will/try to prosecute. The last purpose listed is number 7- Which states from your home to ANY PRIVATE property. So if you are going to a store or to the mall or any private property you are okay.

    I also would not lie to the police, but you can say nothing and ask for an attorney if the situation gets out of hand.
    I would like to get others thoughts, or practices of people who are in a similar situation as I:

    I drive a pickup, I do not have a cover over the bed of my truck and don't want my firearms bouncing all over the bed. I normally carry my handgun in a case in the cab (unloaded and separate from my ammunition. Any thoughts on this? My local gun dealer said I should keep the ammunition in the glove box and the case with the gun in the back seat, (I have an extended cab truck) maybe I should put the case under the back seat? That would make it even more inaccessible.
    I would have the case locked and as far away from any occupants as possible. I'm not sure that you need it locked, but that might reduce the hassle if a cop wants to make an issue about it.
    You also don't need to have ammo separate from the firearm. The weapon has to be unloaded, but you could have a magazine or speed loader in the same case. I'm not sure on the locked case part in regards to a pick-up, but as was mentioned it's probably a good Idea. And if you get busted, the fact that it was locked would go a long way with a jury.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(0pg...e=mcl-750-231a

    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,416

    Post imported post

    BigE wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    LittleMan wrote:
    Thank you for your reply. I have read the law it is very restrictive. It seems self defense isn't a Lawful Purpose. Or how about Exercising my right as a citizen.

    I've heard from a few people they would just lie to an officer if ever questioned while transporting. Like telling them they are on the way to a range or gun smith.

    Edited for spelling error
    The MSP position is that ANY lawful purpose is allowed and their troopers know this. But they also said some PDs think the list is ALL inclusive and will/try to prosecute. The last purpose listed is number 7- Which states from your home to ANY PRIVATE property. So if you are going to a store or to the mall or any private property you are okay.

    I also would not lie to the police, but you can say nothing and ask for an attorney if the situation gets out of hand.
    I would like to get others thoughts, or practices of people who are in a similar situation as I:

    I drive a pickup, I do not have a cover over the bed of my truck and don't want my firearms bouncing all over the bed. I normally carry my handgun in a case in the cab (unloaded and separate from my ammunition. Any thoughts on this? My local gun dealer said I should keep the ammunition in the glove box and the case with the gun in the back seat, (I have an extended cab truck) maybe I should put the case under the back seat? That would make it even more inaccessible.
    Since this question would be moot if you had a CPL, I'm going to answer on the basis that you don't have one.

    I sometimes drive a van that has no trunk, or glove box. Here's what I did. I put the handgun in the case, and get one of those luggage padlocks to lock it with. Most hard cases have some hole through which to secure these locks. In your case, I would lock the ammo in the glove box, as well as lock the gun in the case, and put it in the back seat. The expectation of the law is that the gun cannot be accessible to you. Notice I said "to you", and not "the driver". If your standing outside the car, and the gun is accessible while in the car, then there is a possibility that that could be used as RS/PC to an arrest for CCW. After all, a handgun openly carried inside a vehicle is considered "concealed" under Michigan law. It wouldn't be hard to imagine an anti-OC officer using that as a means to arrest someone for CCW, while OC'ing. Whether or not it would hold up in court is a question, but I wouldn't want to be the one to have to pay for it to go the the Court of Appeals.

    Here's the thing. These type of questions are an example of how people have become programed to "comply" or "cooperate". Go back to my question in a previous post.
    Why would you think that you need to tell an officer the reason for transporting a gun in the first place?
    This question is similar. I understand the desire to be a law-abiding citizen, but how is an officer going to find out that a law-abiding citizen is transporting a gun if that citizen didn't tell him, and the officer didn't search? We worry about these things, not only because we want to abide by the law, but also because we understand that there is a real possibility that we may find ourselves having to answer these questions when confronted by a LEO.

    Mind you, I'm not saying that we shouldn't comply or cooperate with the police. I feel that we as citizens (few are actually "law-abiding", since there are too many laws to maintain that status) have a duty to assist them if we can possibly be of help, but that is also with the caveat that we should not endanger ourselves in the process.

    Back to my suggestion that you lock the ammo in the glove box, and lock the gun in a case, which is then made inaccessible in the back seat. This serves two purposes. First, it demonstrates that you tried in good faith to comply with the law (not that it's guaranteed to help you in court). Second, for an office to breach those locks, he'll need either probable cause, or your consent. If he does so without either PC or consent, then it's one more barrier he must justify if it goes to court.

    That brings me to another thought. If your going to be transporting your gun in a vehicle that has no separate compartment to store it in, make sure it is not visible. I wouldn't want to have my lawyer argue in court the PC of an officer's observation of a gun case in my back seat (along with my non disclosure of CPL).




  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Columbus, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    31

    Post imported post

    ghostrider wrote:
    BigE wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    LittleMan wrote:
    Thank you for your reply. I have read the law it is very restrictive. It seems self defense isn't a Lawful Purpose. Or how about Exercising my right as a citizen.

    I've heard from a few people they would just lie to an officer if ever questioned while transporting. Like telling them they are on the way to a range or gun smith.

    Edited for spelling error
    The MSP position is that ANY lawful purpose is allowed and their troopers know this. But they also said some PDs think the list is ALL inclusive and will/try to prosecute. The last purpose listed is number 7- Which states from your home to ANY PRIVATE property. So if you are going to a store or to the mall or any private property you are okay.

    I also would not lie to the police, but you can say nothing and ask for an attorney if the situation gets out of hand.
    I would like to get others thoughts, or practices of people who are in a similar situation as I:

    I drive a pickup, I do not have a cover over the bed of my truck and don't want my firearms bouncing all over the bed. I normally carry my handgun in a case in the cab (unloaded and separate from my ammunition. Any thoughts on this? My local gun dealer said I should keep the ammunition in the glove box and the case with the gun in the back seat, (I have an extended cab truck) maybe I should put the case under the back seat? That would make it even more inaccessible.
    Since this question would be moot if you had a CPL, I'm going to answer on the basis that you don't have one.

    I sometimes drive a van that has no trunk, or glove box. Here's what I did. I put the handgun in the case, and get one of those luggage padlocks to lock it with. Most hard cases have some hole through which to secure these locks. In your case, I would lock the ammo in the glove box, as well as lock the gun in the case, and put it in the back seat. The expectation of the law is that the gun cannot be accessible to you. Notice I said "to you", and not "the driver". If your standing outside the car, and the gun is accessible while in the car, then there is a possibility that that could be used as RS/PC to an arrest for CCW. After all, a handgun openly carried inside a vehicle is considered "concealed" under Michigan law. It wouldn't be hard to imagine an anti-OC officer using that as a means to arrest someone for CCW, while OC'ing. Whether or not it would hold up in court is a question, but I wouldn't want to be the one to have to pay for it to go the the Court of Appeals.

    Here's the thing. These type of questions are an example of how people have become programed to "comply" or "cooperate". Go back to my question in a previous post.
    Why would you think that you need to tell an officer the reason for transporting a gun in the first place?
    This question is similar. I understand the desire to be a law-abiding citizen, but how is an officer going to find out that a law-abiding citizen is transporting a gun if that citizen didn't tell him, and the officer didn't search? We worry about these things, not only because we want to abide by the law, but also because we understand that there is a real possibility that we may find ourselves having to answer these questions when confronted by a LEO.

    Mind you, I'm not saying that we shouldn't comply or cooperate with the police. I feel that we as citizens (few are actually "law-abiding", since there are too many laws to maintain that status) have a duty to assist them if we can possibly be of help, but that is also with the caveat that we should not endanger ourselves in the process.

    Back to my suggestion that you lock the ammo in the glove box, and lock the gun in a case, which is then made inaccessible in the back seat. This serves two purposes. First, it demonstrates that you tried in good faith to comply with the law (not that it's guaranteed to help you in court). Second, for an office to breach those locks, he'll need either probable cause, or your consent. If he does so without either PC or consent, then it's one more barrier he must justify if it goes to court.

    That brings me to another thought. If your going to be transporting your gun in a vehicle that has no separate compartment to store it in, make sure it is not visible. I wouldn't want to have my lawyer argue in court the PC of an officer's observation of a gun case in my back seat (along with my non disclosure of CPL).


    Thanks for all the input. I think now that I have been doing everything I can do to be as legal as possible. I don't currently have a CPL but I am now searching for a GOOD local class to take. Having a CPL will definitely make it much less of a pain in the butt to transport. I have wanted a CPL for a long time now, it just has always p'ed me off of how much it costs in order to be able to do what I believe I have the right to do anyway. But drivers license every few yearsand vehicleregistration every yearare two other areas that I also think are BS. Thanks again, and if anyone has a suggestion for a goodCPL class (instructor)in St. Clair or Macomb county please let me know.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •