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Thread: Wished I had my Sig & acquired CCW permit

  1. #1
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    Sat through the shoot-out in International district on Oct. 25 1:50am-lish.
    As I was dining at Purple Dot on Maynard Ave, sat near window and heard
    4 to 5 pops, few seconds pause...then 6 to 7 more pops (all sounded like 9mm).

    Right away I wished I had my Sig & CCW permit, as what if the getto gang bangers decides to enter the establishment and go postal on diners, or those clowns decide to use restaurant as shelter.

    SPD arrived 5 min. or so after the thug(s) and victim has left, and
    didn't know then...but my window seating was 10ft away from line of fire!


    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/33303944.html


    Question:

    Knowing the shooter was not aiming at me, but they decided to have an open shoot-out with all restaurant patrons near-by...besides seeking shelter right & then, when would my CCW be considered legal to be drawn?


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    Bellevue as well... which restaurant did this happen? :-\

    As for "when is it legal" - did you think your life or the life of someone around you was in imminent danger or did you think a felony was being committed? If so, you have the right to self defense.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    I think this would be a good thread for someone who is 'educated' to post a list of felonies (even generic list) that can/should be stopped by drawing a firearm. Also, what is the list of actions where in Washington State there is a strong legal defense if you use lethal force to stop a felony?

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    Purple Dot on Maynard Ave, Seattle (China town)

  5. #5
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    I found the following laws that are related to this issue on the site: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...n-state-3.html


    But I'm still asking for a list of felonies.


    RCW 9A.16.020
    Use of force — When lawful.


    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

    (1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

    (2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

    (4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

    (5) Whenever used by a carrier of passengers or the carrier's authorized agent or servant, or other person assisting them at their request in expelling from a carriage, railway car, vessel, or other vehicle, a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful and reasonable regulation prescribed for the conduct of passengers, if such vehicle has first been stopped and the force used is not more than is necessary to expel the offender with reasonable regard to the offender's personal safety;

    (6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.

    [1986 c 149 § 2; 1979 ex.s. c 244 § 7; 1977 ex.s. c 80 § 13; 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.16.02

    RCW 9A.16.030
    Homicide — When excusable.


    Homicide is excusable when committed by accident or misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means, without criminal negligence, or without any unlawful intent.

    [1979 ex.s. c 244 § 8; 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.16.030.]


    RCW 9A.16.040
    Justifiable homicide or use of deadly force by public officer, peace officer, person aiding.


    (1) Homicide or the use of deadly force is justifiable in the following cases:

    (a) When a public officer is acting in obedience to the judgment of a competent court; or

    (b) When necessarily used by a peace officer to overcome actual resistance to the execution of the legal process, mandate, or order of a court or officer, or in the discharge of a legal duty.

    (c) When necessarily used by a peace officer or person acting under the officer's command and in the officer's aid:

    (i) To arrest or apprehend a person who the officer reasonably believes has committed, has attempted to commit, is committing, or is attempting to commit a felony;

    (ii) To prevent the escape of a person from a federal or state correctional facility or in retaking a person who escapes from such a facility; or

    (iii) To prevent the escape of a person from a county or city jail or holding facility if the person has been arrested for, charged with, or convicted of a felony; or

    (iv) To lawfully suppress a riot if the actor or another participant is armed with a deadly weapon.

    (2) In considering whether to use deadly force under subsection (1)(c) of this section, to arrest or apprehend any person for the commission of any crime, the peace officer must have probable cause to believe that the suspect, if not apprehended, poses a threat of serious physical harm to the officer or a threat of serious physical harm to others. Among the circumstances which may be considered by peace officers as a "threat of serious physical harm" are the following:

    (a) The suspect threatens a peace officer with a weapon or displays a weapon in a manner that could reasonably be construed as threatening; or

    (b) There is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed any crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm.

    Under these circumstances deadly force may also be used if necessary to prevent escape from the officer, where, if feasible, some warning is given.

    (3) A public officer or peace officer shall not be held criminally liable for using deadly force without malice and with a good faith belief that such act is justifiable pursuant to this section.

    (4) This section shall not be construed as:

    (a) Affecting the permissible use of force by a person acting under the authority of RCW 9A.16.020 or 9A.16.050; or

    (b) Preventing a law enforcement agency from adopting standards pertaining to its use of deadly force that are more restrictive than this section.

    [1986 c 209 § 2; 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.16.040.]

    Notes:
    Legislative recognition: "The legislature recognizes that RCW 9A.16.040 establishes a dual standard with respect to the use of deadly force by peace officers and private citizens, and further recognizes that private citizens' permissible use of deadly force under the authority of RCW 9.01.200, 9A.16.020, or 9A.16.050 is not restricted and remains broader than the limitations imposed on peace officers." [1986 c 209 § 3.]

    RCW 9A.16.050
    Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.


    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.

    [1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.16.050.]

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    But I'm still asking for a list of felonies.
    Just go to the RCW Search Page, enter "felony" in the 2nd search box, check "RCW and dispositions", and click on Search.

    You'll have quite a long list of felonies (too long, actually, but that's another questions.)

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    quentusrex wrote:
    I think this would be a good thread for someone who is 'educated' to post a list of felonies (even generic list) that can/should be stopped by drawing a firearm. Also, what is the list of actions where in Washington State there is a strong legal defense if you use lethal force to stop a felony?
    Ther is no list. One should never think that a crime can be stopped by drawing your firearm. If you draw your firearm then you better be ready to use it. Never try to scare someone with a gun. You draw your firearm to stop the taking of a life or similar, otherwise keep your gun in your holster.

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    PT111 wrote:
    quentusrex wrote:
    I think this would be a good thread for someone who is 'educated' to post a list of felonies (even generic list) that can/should be stopped by drawing a firearm. Also, what is the list of actions where in Washington State there is a strong legal defense if you use lethal force to stop a felony?
    Ther is no list. One should never think that a crime can be stopped by drawing your firearm. If you draw your firearm then you better be ready to use it. Never try to scare someone with a gun. You draw your firearm to stop the taking of a life or similar, otherwise keep your gun in your holster.
    You are right that there is no list but in Wa. we can use deadly force to prevent the attempt of a felony on us or in our presence.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    quentusrex wrote:
    I think this would be a good thread for someone who is 'educated' to post a list of felonies (even generic list) that can/should be stopped by drawing a firearm. Also, what is the list of actions where in Washington State there is a strong legal defense if you use lethal force to stop a felony?
    Ther is no list. One should never think that a crime can be stopped by drawing your firearm. If you draw your firearm then you better be ready to use it. Never try to scare someone with a gun. You draw your firearm to stop the taking of a life or similar, otherwise keep your gun in your holster.
    You are right that there is no list but in Wa. we can use deadly force to prevent the attempt of a felony on us or in our presence.
    He asked if there was a list of crimes that could be stopped by DRAWING a firearm. Drawing a firearm is much different than using one. You are correct about the use of one to prevent felonies but be careful. Even though you know that drunk driver is on his 6th offense of DUI you still can't just shoot him.

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    Hologram wrote:
    Sat through the shoot-out in International district on Oct. 25 1:50am-lish.
    As I was dining at Purple Dot on Maynard Ave, sat near window and heard
    4 to 5 pops, few seconds pause...then 6 to 7 more pops (all sounded like 9mm).

    Right away I wished I had my Sig & CCW permit, as what if the getto gang bangers decides to enter the establishment and go postal on diners, or those clowns decide to use restaurant as shelter.

    SPD arrived 5 min. or so after the thug(s) and victim has left, and
    didn't know then...but my window seating was 10ft away from line of fire!


    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/33303944.html


    Question:

    Knowing the shooter was not aiming at me, but they decided to have an open shoot-out with all restaurant patrons near-by...besides seeking shelter right & then, when would my CCW be considered legal to be drawn?

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    I would have to say that your safety was in danger being 10 feet away, weapon drawn and at ready for anything would have been justified in my opinion.

    My question back to you is, why was your sidearm not with you? Job? There are lots of reasons, don't get me wrong, I not judging, just wondering.

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    I worked down in that exact area up until recently.......I carried every day, rules be damned.....I wasn't going to be a victim down there, and the number of attacks I had to fight off in the two years I was working down there justified my attitude.

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    My sidearm from the start was intended as home defense, but
    With increase of crimes & much reading/info. from this and other sites
    OC is an idea, but now will start the process of getting ccw permit.

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    My opinion is that one should never draw their sidearm unless they are ready to use it, but at the same time if unholstering will be enough 'force' to stop a crime in progress, then I wouldn't want to use any more 'force'. I have already been in a position where just moving my shirt to unconceal my sidearm was enough to stop an assault in progress.

    The way I look at it there are a few stages of 'threat of lethal force'.
    1. There is OC'ing(yes, this is a stage)
    2. There is having your hand on the grip
    3. There is unholstering the weapon (pointed at the ground)
    4. There is aimed(pointed at the BG)
    5. Then there is pulling the trigger(either as a warning shot, or not. I wouldn't ever use a warning shot, but still).

    RCW clearly makes a distinction between using the threat of lethal force, and actually taking the life of the BG.

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    quentusrex wrote:
    My opinion is that one should never draw their sidearm unless they are ready to use it, but at the same time if unholstering will be enough 'force' to stop a crime in progress, then I wouldn't want to use any more 'force'. I have already been in a position where just moving my shirt to unconceal my sidearm was enough to stop an assault in progress.

    The way I look at it there are a few stages of 'threat of lethal force'.
    1. There is OC'ing(yes, this is a stage)
    2. There is having your hand on the grip
    3. There is unholstering the weapon (pointed at the ground)
    4. There is aimed(pointed at the BG)
    5. Then there is pulling the trigger(either as a warning shot, or not. I wouldn't ever use a warning shot, but still).

    RCW clearly makes a distinction between using the threat of lethal force, and actually taking the life of the BG.
    Years ago when a nitwit had a gun in his hand, pointed at the ground, threating me, the 2 investigating officers said that the pointing at the ground did not qualify as a threat. My response was, what if I did the same thing to you. The response was "That would be different." Major double standard. Oh andI didn't shoot the original stupid jerk because my 8 year old niece was present.

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    Hologram wrote:
    Sat through the shoot-out in International district on Oct. 25 1:50am-lish.
    As I was dining at Purple Dot on Maynard Ave, sat near window and heard
    4 to 5 pops, few seconds pause...then 6 to 7 more pops (all sounded like 9mm).

    Right away I wished I had my Sig & CCW permit, as what if the getto gang bangers decides to enter the establishment and go postal on diners, or those clowns decide to use restaurant as shelter.

    SPD arrived 5 min. or so after the thug(s) and victim has left, and
    didn't know then...but my window seating was 10ft away from line of fire!


    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/33303944.html


    Question:

    Knowing the shooter was not aiming at me, but they decided to have an open shoot-out with all restaurant patrons near-by...besides seeking shelter right & then, when would my CCW be considered legal to be drawn?
    While I can't answer as to the legality I will respond as to what I would see as one appropriate reaction.

    Given that the threat was apparently nearby as ascertained by the sound of the gunfire, but no threat had physically presented itself, I would not have drawn a concealed firearm at that point. However, depending on how I was CC, ie what clothing I had covering my sidearm, I would very likely have immediately switched to OC and adjusted my body position to ensure the maximum quick access to my sidearm if the threat did appear in such a manner that I felt a need to engage it.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Hologram wrote:
    Sat through the shoot-out in International district on Oct. 25 1:50am-lish.
    As I was dining at Purple Dot on Maynard Ave, sat near window and heard
    4 to 5 pops, few seconds pause...then 6 to 7 more pops (all sounded like 9mm).

    Right away I wished I had my Sig & CCW permit, as what if the getto gang bangers decides to enter the establishment and go postal on diners, or those clowns decide to use restaurant as shelter.

    SPD arrived 5 min. or so after the thug(s) and victim has left, and
    didn't know then...but my window seating was 10ft away from line of fire!


    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/33303944.html


    Question:

    Knowing the shooter was not aiming at me, but they decided to have an open shoot-out with all restaurant patrons near-by...besides seeking shelter right & then, when would my CCW be considered legal to be drawn?

    It's an old cliché, but it's so appropriate: "When seconds matter, the police areonlyminutes away."

    I'm not an attorney at all, but in this state you do have the right to defend the lives of those nearby you, if you perceive them to be in danger as per RCW 9A.16.110. That law allowsa personto protect by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030. (Note that this is the "list of felonies" as it were, that others have asked about. It's alot to wade through and it refers to many other RCWs.)

    Since the window was very near their line of fire it would have been very reasonable to assume that not only was your life potentially in danger, but the lives of all of the other patrons were as well. Furthermore, the news story indicates that one boy was shot and hospitalized. That alone would allow you to defend his life by any reasonable means necessary.

    The catch is, you'd have to convince the jury that deadly force against the assailants was reasonable.

    Again, I'm not an attorney, but I would make sure that if you're going to defend some other random person you don't know that their life is truly in danger before you do so. The last thing you want to do is defend someone's life only to have them refuse to testify on your behalf, or worse, testify against you by claiming that you over-reacted and their life was not in danger.

    Protecting yourself or your family is usually a safe bet. Protecting children is usually a safe bet too. Protecting adult strangers is a little more dicey and using deadly force to protect your real or personal property is pretty tough to justify.

    [line]

    To answer your question in a direct manner, your CCP is legal to be drawn and firedwhen the jury who is sitting on your murder trial decides to find you not guilty, as per RCW 9A.16.110or when the police officers who respond to your "vigilantism" decide it was self-defense or the lawful defense of others as per RCW 9A.16.110.

    However, if the police charge you with murder and the jury finds you guilty, then it was illegal to draw your CCP.

    Even if it was legal, you could still be sued by the perps you shot (or by their surviving families) in civil court and it could be for a huge amount of money.


    [line]

    P.S.

    In this case quentusrex's citation of RCW 9A.16.020 applies primarily to law enforcement, and not to you. The RCW I cited applies to private citizens.


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    To switch into a scenario base...if the two way shooting occured in the restaurant,not knowing who isthe GG or BG andneitherInor rest of the patrons being intended target, with my sidearm andpermit, do I:

    1.Take best coverandallow thetwo way shoot-out to end when it does?

    2.Draw my pistol and tell both parties to stop? Andhope they do (kinda suicidal)?

    3.Draw and defend myself, friend (the strangers aspect let's leave out for now)should an unintended bullet get very near, and respond backandstart apossible 3 way shoot-out?

    Thanks all for your input and knowledge base! I now start to educate my friends that having afirearm comes with great responsibilities.

  19. #19
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    Hologram wrote:
    To switch into a scenario base...if the two way shooting occured in the restaurant,not knowing who isthe GG or BG andneitherInor rest of the patrons being intended target, with my sidearm andpermit, do I:

    1.Take best coverandallow thetwo way shoot-out to end when it does?

    2.Draw my pistol and tell both parties to stop? Andhope they do (kinda suicidal)?

    3.Draw and defend myself, friend (the strangers aspect let's leave out for now)should an unintended bullet get very near, and respond backandstart apossible 3 way shoot-out?

    Thanks all for your input and knowledge base! I now start to educate my friends that having afirearm comes with great responsibilities.

    Again, you're the only one who can judge the situation. If you aren't 100% sure of who the bad guy is and who the good guy is, you never draw and never fire. If either of them put your life in imminent danger with a firearm you could justifiably draw and use lethal force. (The point is, they might both be the "bad" guy.) The last thing to keep in mind (and this is an extremely unlikely event) is that one of the gunmen could be a plainclothes officer or even an undercover FBI or BATFE agent or something. Again, this is terribly unlikely, but undercover officers often look and act the part of the criminals they're trying to catch so well that you wouldn't know the difference. Imagine how hard it would be to justify self-defense in court if you accidentally shot and killed an undercover agent while he was in a shootout with one of the criminals he was investigating.

    The thing you have to keep in mind in the original scenario and in the scenario you just described is that the bad guys already have their guns out and are using them. You haven't even drawn a firearm yet and doing so may get you shot before you've actually managed to fire a single round. Only you know your own speed andaccuracy, and you probably don't know how adrenaline and a true threat to your life will impact those attributes.


    With all of that in mind, option 1 really is your best bet. Take cover behind something that blocks not only the line of sight, but is also capable ofstopping any stray (or intended) gunfire. Don't attract attention to yourself.

    Option 2 is a terrible option. You're not a police officer and the shooters aren't going to give you the respect they would an officer. (If they'd even give an officer respect is debatable.) You're very likely to get shot this way and even if you don't, you just brandished a weapon, which is a criminal offense...

    That brings us to option 3. Never draw a weapon unless you intend to fire it. When you do fire, you shoot to kill with no exception. It's very black and white. The gun stays in its holster until your life is in immediate danger and escape is not an option, then you draw and shoot to kill in a quick and decisive manner. "Hurry up slowly" is what I was taught. If you can, seek cover while firing and if cover isn't available you keep moving while firing. (This assumes you've trained to fire on the move.) Bill Jordan said once that "There is no second-place winner in a gunfight." You have to be 100% committed if you draw your weapon, because the moment you draw, you're in a gunfight whether you like it or not and you have no choice but to win.

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    I hope this was a gang on gang gunfight and not a gang member shooting akid that just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time...

    But if it was gang on gang, then let them kill each other, it will be one less Dumb-A$$off the streets, and the when the cops catch up with the shooter then there will be two Dumb- A$$es off the street.






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    shad0wfax wrote:
    Hologram wrote:
    Sat through the shoot-out in International district on Oct. 25 1:50am-lish.
    As I was dining at Purple Dot on Maynard Ave, sat near window and heard
    4 to 5 pops, few seconds pause...then 6 to 7 more pops (all sounded like 9mm).

    Right away I wished I had my Sig & CCW permit, as what if the getto gang bangers decides to enter the establishment and go postal on diners, or those clowns decide to use restaurant as shelter.

    SPD arrived 5 min. or so after the thug(s) and victim has left, and
    didn't know then...but my window seating was 10ft away from line of fire!


    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/33303944.html


    Question:

    Knowing the shooter was not aiming at me, but they decided to have an open shoot-out with all restaurant patrons near-by...besides seeking shelter right & then, when would my CCW be considered legal to be drawn?

    It's an old cliché, but it's so appropriate: "When seconds matter, the police areonlyminutes away."

    I'm not an attorney at all, but in this state you do have the right to defend the lives of those nearby you, if you perceive them to be in danger as per RCW 9A.16.110. That law allowsa personto protect by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030. (Note that this is the "list of felonies" as it were, that others have asked about. It's alot to wade through and it refers to many other RCWs.)

    Since the window was very near their line of fire it would have been very reasonable to assume that not only was your life potentially in danger, but the lives of all of the other patrons were as well. Furthermore, the news story indicates that one boy was shot and hospitalized. That alone would allow you to defend his life by any reasonable means necessary.

    The catch is, you'd have to convince the jury that deadly force against the assailants was reasonable.

    Again, I'm not an attorney, but I would make sure that if you're going to defend some other random person you don't know that their life is truly in danger before you do so. The last thing you want to do is defend someone's life only to have them refuse to testify on your behalf, or worse, testify against you by claiming that you over-reacted and their life was not in danger.

    Protecting yourself or your family is usually a safe bet. Protecting children is usually a safe bet too. Protecting adult strangers is a little more dicey and using deadly force to protect your real or personal property is pretty tough to justify.
    [line]

    To answer your question in a direct manner, your CCP is legal to be drawn and firedwhen the jury who is sitting on your murder trial decides to find you not guilty, as per RCW 9A.16.110or when the police officers who respond to your "vigilantism" decide it was self-defense or the lawful defense of others as per RCW 9A.16.110.

    However, if the police charge you with murder and the jury finds you guilty, then it was illegal to draw your CCP.

    Even if it was legal, you could still be sued by the perps you shot (or by their surviving families) in civil court and it could be for a huge amount of money.

    [line]

    P.S.

    In this case quentusrex's citation of RCW 9A.16.020 applies primarily to law enforcement, and not to you. The RCW I cited applies to private citizens.
    That RCW you quote has nothing to do with the question asked. It is for reimbursement by the state if you are found not guilty and the crime was justifiable as self defense. You are not found not guilty in accordance with RCW 9A.16.110. You are either guily or not guilty, then they decide if it was justifiable as self defense.

    You need to read 9a.16.030 and 9a.16.050. These are the justifiable uses of force that apply to non-LEO.

    Also LEO do not decide if a crime was in self defense and charges are filed. They are fact gatherers and forward thier info to the prosecutors office to determine if it was justified or not.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  22. #22
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    Hologram wrote:
    To switch into a scenario base...if the two way shooting occured in the restaurant,not knowing who isthe GG or BG andneitherInor rest of the patrons being intended target, with my sidearm andpermit, do I:

    1.Take best coverandallow thetwo way shoot-out to end when it does?

    2.Draw my pistol and tell both parties to stop? Andhope they do (kinda suicidal)?

    3.Draw and defend myself, friend (the strangers aspect let's leave out for now)should an unintended bullet get very near, and respond backandstart apossible 3 way shoot-out?

    Thanks all for your input and knowledge base! I now start to educate my friends that having afirearm comes with great responsibilities.
    The way I see this is that by clearing leather you are now on even ground with anyone that comes though that resturant door armed with a drawn weapon. You are within 10 feet of a firefight, you dont know which way they are coming or going, so being prepared is better than leaving it holstered a realying on a quick draw. I would consider that enough to be in imediate danger for myself and others.

    Trying to draw on someone eles that is already drawn can lead to your demise. Of course if that is your only option, draw, draw fast.

  23. #23
    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
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    Multiple quoting apparently does not work.

    joeroket:

    Thanks for pointing out 9a.16.030 and 9a.16.050 to me for justifiable force for non-LEOs. Thanks for reminding me that the LEOs don't make the call on whether or not you're charged with a crime ormake a determination on self defense. I jumped a few steps. What I was trying to say was thatthe impression you leave with the LEOs and the evidence they do (or do not) obtain has an impact on whether or not you are cleared and considered acting in self-defense.

    Triple Tap:

    You make a good point about having your weapon drawn in advance and being fully prepared to defend yourself before the perp is aware of you. However, you face a greater risk of being unable to prove your life wasdirectly threatened bythe perp in court. You would be basing your defense on the fact that someone else's life was directly threatened by the perp, which may be a slightly weaker position. Additionally, you run the risk of frightening another patroning, which may result in charges being filed against you if they perceive your manner to be threatening towards them (however misguided their perceptions are) Lastly, there's the remote possibility that the LEOs could mistake you for one of the bad guys and shoot you if they happen to show up while the firefight is in progress. (Although this is highly unlikely, there's a chance it may happen.)

    I still think your best bet is to escape from the situation if you can safely do so.

  24. #24
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    shad0wfax wrote:
    Multiple quoting apparently does not work.

    joeroket:

    Thanks for pointing out 9a.16.030 and 9a.16.050 to me for justifiable force for non-LEOs. Thanks for reminding me that the LEOs don't make the call on whether or not you're charged with a crime ormake a determination on self defense. I jumped a few steps. What I was trying to say was thatthe impression you leave with the LEOs and the evidence they do (or do not) obtain has an impact on whether or not you are cleared and considered acting in self-defense.
    I couldn't agree more.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  25. #25
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    Holo,

    There's been some good advice in this thread, but, unless you want to risk years in prison AND you have a 6 figure defense fund, you need professional training.

    There is nothing cut and dried here that you can get from the law. Everything will be based on the perceptions of others, even the facts can be interpreted differently by police and prosecutors and witnesses.

    you are risking everything you have on the advice of an internet discussion group. Call FAS and get a training schedule, save your money and plan a 4 day vacation to take LFI 1. Read everything you can by Massad Ayoob and you will see why you need the training. A justifiable shoot can put you away for life if you say the wrong thing at the scene. GET TRAINING!

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