Wished I had my Sig & acquired CCW permit

Hologram wrote:

Sat through the shoot-out in International district on Oct. 25 1:50am-lish.
As I was dining at Purple Dot on Maynard Ave, sat near window and heard
4 to 5 pops, few seconds pause...then 6 to 7 more pops (all sounded like 9mm).

Right away I wished I had my Sig & CCW permit, as what if the getto gang bangers decides to enter the establishment and go postal on diners, or those clowns decide to use restaurant as shelter.

SPD arrived 5 min. or so after the thug(s) and victim has left, and
didn't know then...but my window seating was 10ft away from line of fire!


http://www.komonews.com/news/local/33303944.html


Question:

Knowing the shooter was not aiming at me, but they decided to have an open shoot-out with all restaurant patrons near-by...besides seeking shelter right & then, when would my CCW be considered legal to be drawn?

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It's an old cliché, but it's so appropriate: "When seconds matter, the police areonlyminutes away."

I'm not an attorney at all, but in this state you do have the right to defend the lives of those nearby you, if you perceive them to be in danger as per RCW 9A.16.110. That law allowsa personto protect by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030. (Note that this is the "list of felonies" as it were, that others have asked about. It's alot to wade through and it refers to many other RCWs.)

Since the window was very near their line of fire it would have been very reasonable to assume that not only was your life potentially in danger, but the lives of all of the other patrons were as well. Furthermore, the news story indicates that one boy was shot and hospitalized. That alone would allow you to defend his life by any reasonable means necessary.

The catch is, you'd have to convince the jury that deadly force against the assailants was reasonable.

Again, I'm not an attorney, but I would make sure that if you're going to defend some other random person you don't know that their life is truly in danger before you do so. The last thing you want to do is defend someone's life only to have them refuse to testify on your behalf, or worse, testify against you by claiming that you over-reacted and their life was not in danger.

Protecting yourself or your family is usually a safe bet. Protecting children is usually a safe bet too. Protecting adult strangers is a little more dicey and using deadly force to protect your real or personal property is pretty tough to justify.

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To answer your question in a direct manner, your CCP is legal to be drawn and firedwhen the jury who is sitting on your murder trial decides to find you not guilty, as per RCW 9A.16.110or when the police officers who respond to your "vigilantism" decide it was self-defense or the lawful defense of others as per RCW 9A.16.110.

However, if the police charge you with murder and the jury finds you guilty, then it was illegal to draw your CCP.

Even if it was legal, you could still be sued by the perps you shot (or by their surviving families) in civil court and it could be for a huge amount of money.

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P.S.

In this case quentusrex's citation of RCW 9A.16.020 applies primarily to law enforcement, and not to you. The RCW I cited applies to private citizens.

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To switch into a scenario base...if the two way shooting occured in the restaurant,not knowing who isthe GG or BG andneitherInor rest of the patrons being intended target, with my sidearm andpermit, do I:

1.Take best coverandallow thetwo way shoot-out to end when it does?

2.Draw my pistol and tell both parties to stop? Andhope they do (kinda suicidal)?

3.Draw and defend myself, friend (the strangers aspect let's leave out for now)should an unintended bullet get very near, and respond backandstart apossible 3 way shoot-out?

Thanks all for your input and knowledge base! I now start to educate my friends that having afirearm comes with great responsibilities.

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Multiple quoting apparently does not work.

joeroket:

Thanks for pointing out 9a.16.030 and 9a.16.050 to me for justifiable force for non-LEOs. Thanks for reminding me that the LEOs don't make the call on whether or not you're charged with a crime ormake a determination on self defense. I jumped a few steps. What I was trying to say was thatthe impression you leave with the LEOs and the evidence they do (or do not) obtain has an impact on whether or not you are cleared and considered acting in self-defense.

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Multiple quoting apparently does not work.


Triple Tap:

You make a good point about having your weapon drawn in advance and being fully prepared to defend yourself before the perp is aware of you. However, you face a greater risk of being unable to prove your life wasdirectly threatened bythe perp in court. You would be basing your defense on the fact that someone else's life was directly threatened by the perp, which may be a slightly weaker position. Additionally, you run the risk of frightening another patroning, which may result in charges being filed against you if they perceive your manner to be threatening towards them (however misguided their perceptions are) Lastly, there's the remote possibility that the LEOs could mistake you for one of the bad guys and shoot you if they happen to show up while the firefight is in progress. (Although this is highly unlikely, there's a chance it may happen.)

I still think your best bet is to escape from the situation if you can safely do so.

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shad0wfax wrote:

Multiple quoting apparently does not work.


Triple Tap:

You make a good point about having your weapon drawn in advance and being fully prepared to defend yourself before the perp is aware of you. However, you face a greater risk of being unable to prove your life wasdirectly threatened bythe perp in court. You would be basing your defense on the fact that someone else's life was directly threatened by the perp, which may be a slightly weaker position. Additionally, you run the risk of frightening another patroning, which may result in charges being filed against you if they perceive your manner to be threatening towards them (however misguided their perceptions are) Lastly, there's the remote possibility that the LEOs could mistake you for one of the bad guys and shoot you if they happen to show up while the firefight is in progress. (Although this is highly unlikely, there's a chance it may happen.)

I still think your best bet is to escape from the situation if you can safely do so.

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As stated that I would have thought and believed, given being 10 feet away from a firefight that mine and everyones life was in immediate danger.

Being in a firefight and a LEO rolling in can happen, They WILL CONSIDER EVERYONE A BAD GUY. If your in a tunnel mode and don't comply with them immediatly , your gonna be hurt or dead. This is one reason LEO's have drop down ID jackets that they wear even off duty. Giving all responding officers clear knowledge that they also are LEO's on scene.

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Just get your own drop down jacket that says "Honest Armed Citizen" and "Don't Shoot Me!".

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Just get your own drop down jacket that says "Honest Armed Citizen" and "Don't Shoot Me!".

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Better than one of those Concealed Weapons badges. When an armedLEO says hit the dirt start digging and then ask how deep? You can convince him that you are the GG later if you are still alive, don't try to while standing there holding your gun. :what:

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