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Thread: Pulled over with ccl

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    Am I supposed to tell the LEO when I get stopped that I have a ccl? Or does he allready know?

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    Not required by law. However more cops are killed on traffic stops than any other way. They tend to be nervous and if he happens to see you gun, well it is not fun looking down the barrel of a very nervous and adrenalin pumped cop. I always say, "I have a CPL and I am carrying."

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Not required by law. However more cops are killed on traffic stops than any other way. They tend to be nervous and if he happens to see you gun, well it is not fun looking down the barrel of a very nervous and adrenalin pumped cop. I always say, "I have a CPL and I am carrying."
    +1

    I did that today and it was teated as a non-issue. I guess if you're honest enough to tell them they figure you're not very likely to use it on them.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Not required by law. However more cops are killed on traffic stops than any other way. They tend to be nervous and if he happens to see you gun, well it is not fun looking down the barrel of a very nervous and adrenalin pumped cop. I always say, "I have a CPL and I am carrying."
    Thanks Bear, Ive wondered if I was the one to bring it up or not. I guess the best thing to do is say something...

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    As my CPL instructor for ORegon put it, "You probably don't want to blurt out all nervous and tesnelike; 'I have a gun!!!!', you probably want to phrase it with a little preface about your CPL, or calmly, with your hands on the wheel, say something to the effect of 'I have CPL and a weapon in the vehicle, officer'"
    Be prepared. Be very prepared.

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    If I am OC or it is off-body and exposed in the vehicle I will advise. If I am CC and it is unlikely he will see it it, I don't bother. Unfortunately there are some cops out there who will make a big deal out of it. Last thing I need is for a "courtesy" on my part to become an extended proctology exam from some cop who isn't up on the laws or has something personal about citizens with guns. Living near the big city, that is always a possibility.

    Now if for some reason he wants me out of the car, or it changes to where it may become visible, at that point I would advise.

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    how about don't get pulled over.

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    911Boss wrote:
    If I am OC or it is off-body and exposed in the vehicle I will advise. If I am CC and it is unlikely he will see it it, I don't bother. Unfortunately there are some cops out there who will make a big deal out of it. Last thing I need is for a "courtesy" on my part to become an extended proctology exam from some cop who isn't up on the laws or has something personal about citizens with guns. Living near the big city, that is always a possibility.

    Now if for some reason he wants me out of the car, or it changes to where it may become visible, at that point I would advise.
    Yup. I agree with this. Whenever I've gotten pulled over, if it's just going to be a "Here's your ticket, have a nice day"-stop, then I don't advise. It's not required and I don't feel the need to up the ante with a cop that doesn't know his stuff.

    However, just like 911Boss said, if you're asked to get out of the vehicle for any reason, an announcement of "I'm licensed to carry a concealed handgun and I'm currently armed. How would YOU like me to proceed???" goes a long way. It puts the ball back in the cop's court, and shows that you are willing to comply with the officer, and not a threat either. I've been in this situation, and was told that I did exactly what the cops wanted me to do.Here's the link to said situation: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/7694.html

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    911Boss wrote:
    If I am OC or it is off-body and exposed in the vehicle I will advise. If I am CC and it is unlikely he will see it it, I don't bother. Unfortunately there are some cops out there who will make a big deal out of it. Last thing I need is for a "courtesy" on my part to become an extended proctology exam from some cop who isn't up on the laws or has something personal about citizens with guns. Living near the big city, that is always a possibility.

    Now if for some reason he wants me out of the car, or it changes to where it may become visible, at that point I would advise.
    Yeah, I just knew you would disagree with being smart and find some way to put the op's life in danger. It's stupid not to advise the cop of something that can have you looking down his barrel because you didn't give the cop a heads up.

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    Here we go again...Who's on fire duty....

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    I don't have a car, but I do have a boat, and I have been pulled over by the Coast Guard a couple of times last year.

    The military was unloading a ship in Olympia and I was going downtown in a small dinghy and given the volitale nature of downtown, was carrying a handgun. Coasties come up to talk to me for a minute and escort me past the ship and first thing I told them (one guy on the bow machine gun, one guy with an M16 in the cabin, and a third talking to me with a 9mm on his hip) that I had a handgun on my right hip. I had my strong hand on the engine controls, and my other hand out and plainly visible. The Coasties never asked to see it or took any other action except to tell me to keep my hands visible, stay on the far edge of the channel and to have a nice day.

    These were people I wanted to make they knew I was armed NOW not later. I think it is a courtesy if you are being pulled over by LEO.

    Very rarely do LEO's want you to get out of the car and disarm anymore, and I think most if not all appreciate the courtesy.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    911Boss wrote:
    If I am OC or it is off-body and exposed in the vehicle I will advise. If I am CC and it is unlikely he will see it it, I don't bother. Unfortunately there are some cops out there who will make a big deal out of it. Last thing I need is for a "courtesy" on my part to become an extended proctology exam from some cop who isn't up on the laws or has something personal about citizens with guns. Living near the big city, that is always a possibility.

    Now if for some reason he wants me out of the car, or it changes to where it may become visible, at that point I would advise.
    Yeah, I just knew you would disagree with being smart and find some way to put the op's life in danger. It's stupid not to advise the cop of something that can have you looking down his barrel because you didn't give the cop a heads up.
    Are you for real, Bear? Is everyone who might have a different opinion then you stupid? I'll answer that for you. Yes. Everyone who's opinion differs from yours is a complete and utter moron. Especially if their opinion is reasonable and well thought out.
    ETA - I agree with 911Boss...if I'm home on leave I'll go his route. Dammit...looks like I'm an idiot now.

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    MetalChris wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    911Boss wrote:
    If I am OC or it is off-body and exposed in the vehicle I will advise. If I am CC and it is unlikely he will see it it, I don't bother. Unfortunately there are some cops out there who will make a big deal out of it. Last thing I need is for a "courtesy" on my part to become an extended proctology exam from some cop who isn't up on the laws or has something personal about citizens with guns. Living near the big city, that is always a possibility.

    Now if for some reason he wants me out of the car, or it changes to where it may become visible, at that point I would advise.
    Yeah, I just knew you would disagree with being smart and find some way to put the op's life in danger. It's stupid not to advise the cop of something that can have you looking down his barrel because you didn't give the cop a heads up.
    Are you for real, Bear? Is everyone who might have a different opinion then you stupid? I'll answer that for you. Yes. Everyone who's opinion differs from yours is a complete and utter moron. Especially if their opinion is reasonable and well thought out.
    ETA - I agree with 911Boss...if I'm home on leave I'll go his route. Dammit...looks like I'm an idiot now.
    No, but 911Boss has stated on this board that he is out to disagree with anything I say. But of course, I will be the bad guy for this guys hate crime. Your lack of knowledgeof this guy's vendetta is the only excuse there could be for your statement. Well maybe you did get part of it right, you are right in your last sentence.

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    No statutory requirement, definitely a courtesy. Just like keeping both hands on the steering wheel when the officer is approaching, don't be worming around during the approach, if you have illegally tinted windows, have the window down fully,etc.

    If you are seen with a gun and you have chosen not to advise you have a CPL, the officer will assume the worse until he can feel he has made the scene safe for him/her. How that will play out will be different from officer to officer.



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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    911Boss wrote:
    If I am OC or it is off-body and exposed in the vehicle I will advise. If I am CC and it is unlikely he will see it it, I don't bother. Unfortunately there are some cops out there who will make a big deal out of it. Last thing I need is for a "courtesy" on my part to become an extended proctology exam from some cop who isn't up on the laws or has something personal about citizens with guns. Living near the big city, that is always a possibility.

    Now if for some reason he wants me out of the car, or it changes to where it may become visible, at that point I would advise.
    Yeah, I just knew you would disagree with being smart and find some way to put the op's life in danger. It's stupid not to advise the cop of something that can have you looking down his barrel because you didn't give the cop a heads up.
    Here we go again...

    As always, you start slinging insults and name calling if anyone disagrees with your opinion. If the gun is out of sight and nothing changes that would bring it to sight, just how exactly is it going to "have you looking down" the barrel of the cops gun???

    For the record, that is not a rhetorical question, I would really like you to craft an answer. However, given your history of ignoring simple direct questions, I imagine you won't.

    I think my post pretty clearly said if it isn't going to be seen, no need to bring it up and if it could be seen than go ahead and notify. There have been several stories, some even on this forum, about how poorly folks have been treated by police for no other reason thatlegally carrying a firearm. Why make an issue out of something unnecessarily, especially if it can cause grief and problems?

    If it was sooooodangerous and important to advise, don't you think we would be required by law to do so? If the risk of poor old gun owners being cut down by fidgety cops was sooooo great, wouldn't we hear all the stories of when it happened?

    Instead, we hear story after story of people being disarmed, serial numbers checked, etc. (which I believe you have even stated in previous posts as being an abuse of power by the cops). We hear of guns being unloaded and in some cases being disassembled in the interest of "officer safety". We hear of guns being confiscated for no reason, and we even get the occasional story of a ND when a cop, handling an unfamiliar gun, makes it go bang!

    On the other hand, I can't recall a single story where a cooperative motorist, legally carrying a concealed weapon or a weapon off-body but in a case,was drawn down on, let alone shot by an officer who "freaked out" like a nervous Nellie.

    bear, anyone who has spent anytime on this board knows you hate cops. Your beliefs that they are all incompetent, power tripping, and a blight on our liberties are well known. To use a simple post such as this to makea veiled attempt to discredit them and paint them all as nervous to the point of being unable to make logical decisions and act responsibly to the individual circumstances of a traffic stop is pretty low, even for you.

    As a matter offact, I was pulled over on my way to work this very morning by a Snohomish Co. Deputy. I was carrying my J-Frame in my right jacket pocket and absent him asking me out of the car or getting in the passengerseat himself, absolutely no way would it become an issue.

    Here is how that traffic stop actually went:

    He asked for my driver's licence, etc. and askedthe usual "Do you know why I pulled you over?". I told him no and he advised me that I had a headlight out. He looked at my ID and asked where I was headed so early (0515), I advised him I was on my way to work, he made a comment about it sucking to work on a Saturday and sent me on my way. No hassle, no ticket. I actually appreciated the stop, since I didn't know my headlight was burnt out. Start to finish was about 1 minute.



    Or it could have gone like this this:

    "Can I see your D/L, registration, a proof of insurance?"

    "Certainly, but let me first tell you that I have a CPL and am carrying a firearm"

    "OK, in that case just keep your hands on the steering wheel where I can see them. What kind of gun do you have and where is it"

    "Snub nose revolver in my right jacket pocket."

    "OK, I am going to open your car door, I want you to keep your hands out in front of you and exit the vehicle. Then I want you to turn around andface your car and put your hands up on top of it for me. "

    "OK"

    I then may be disarmed, possibly even handcuffed, while he takes control of my gun. He might then run me, check my CPL, check the S/N of the gun. Maybe decide to question why I need to carry one, maybe comment on my decision to use a Crimson Trace Laser. He may or may not decide to unload it as well, and of course comment on the "Cop Killer" Gold Dot hollow points I carry (.357 mag no less!).

    At some point, there will be a second cop, possibly even a third show up. Notes will be taken, information recorded, etc. If he is personally biased against citizens with guns he may decide to write me the ticket for the headlight. Regardless, it is a hell of a lot more time being wasted and inconvenience for all of us. All because I wanted to make sure he knew I had a gun on me.



    To be fair, It may have been as simple as "Where is it and don't reach for it" and then everything else the same as what actually happened had I told the Deputy I was armed. We will just never know.

    BUT the second possibility is EXACTLY what happened when I was stopped a few years ago for speeding andI advised the officerI was armed. The only exception is he didn'tquestion myfirearm/ammo choice there wasn't a third cop, and I didn't get the ticket.



    Seriously bear, do you really think they need to know or is just important to you that others know you have a gun? You've made other posts deriding people for not being "man enough" to actually carry a gun. You've also written that you like gun noise and "If it is loud it is powerful". Do you somehow feel better about yourself or think that you are more important because you have a noise-maker? Does having a gun and making sure everyone knows you do somehow make you whole again?

    There is "reality" where most of us live, then there is your little fantasy world bear...

    Are you really a retard or do you just play one on the internet?



    PS- A few more votes have come in since the last update, now running 20-1...

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    No, but 911Boss has stated on this board that he is out to disagree with anything I say. But of course, I will be the bad guy for this guys hate crime. Your lack of knowledgeof this guy's vendetta is the only excuse there could be for your statement. Well maybe you did get part of it right, you are right in your last sentence.
    There you go making sh!t up again. I NEVER stated in any post that I am out to disagree with anything you say. What I have sworn is to call you out anytime you resort to name calling and making derogatory remarks because someone disagrees with you.

    You have made several posts in the past week in a variety of threads that I have totally ignored. Hell, some of your posts were even good information presented in an articulate fashion. I am not out to get you, I am only out to call you on your infantile behavior when you haveone of yourtantrums.

    You might even note that while I offered differing advice in this thread, I made no comments about the advice you gave. I didn't call you stupid, I didn't call your advice stupid, I didn't say anyone who follows it would be a fool or suggest it would get them killed or anything. I merely offered a different option, based on my history and experience.

    Of course since what I posted was different than what you posted, you just had to puff up and get b!tchy. Then also call anyone who happend to agree with me names as well.

    And finally, the signature "I'm a victim" whine we have all come to expect from you. Wahhhhh! 911Boss is a bigot! He is out to get me!! Wahhhh my ***** hurts! "Hate Crime!"

    You must not realize that your posts do more to prove my point then mine do. Some have suggested I stop my "vendetta" (I prefer "crusade") for that very reason, but I have never been oneto ignore the elephant in the room. You want the truth, but you can't handle the truth. I call a spade a spade and you are the spadiest spade of all....




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    ghillie wrote:
    No statutory requirement, definitely a courtesy. Just like keeping both hands on the steering wheel when the officer is approaching, don't be worming around during the approach, if you have illegally tinted windows, have the window down fully,etc.

    If you are seen with a gun and you have chosen not to advise you have a CPL, the officer will assume the worse until he can feel he has made the scene safe for him/her. How that will play out will be different from officer to officer.

    When does black become white? Answering all questions truthfully and honestly is a courtesy as well, even if they are irrelevant and unnecessary. What if he asks for a voluntary breathalyzer as part of a sobriety checkpoint? Would it be rude to refuse?What if he asks you to consent to a search of your vehicle? It would certainly be courteous to do so.

    My point is the officer only needs certain information to do his job. He may want more, but not providing it isn't wrong. I disagree that it is "courtesy" to complicate things with unnecessary information that could easily lead to an abuse of your rights.

    You said it yourself, "How that will play out will be different from officer to officer." This is just as truefor volunteering the information as it is for not volunteering it and there are a lots of stories about cops going overboard when aware of a legally carried gun.

    Yes, by all means TELL the officer you have a gun IF (and in my opinion ONLY if) it is in "plain view" or there is a chance it will be seen.

    Yes, tell the officeryou have a gun on your person ANYTIME the officer instructs you to exit the vehicle. Why? Because at that point there is a chance it will be seen (see above).

    Otherwise it is legal, acceptable, and safe to not bring it up. Feel free to ALWAYS tell the cop you are carrying if you feel comfortable doing that as well. There really is no "Wrong" answer in this state. My point is that either choice you make could cause problems. If you understand what might happen, I think you are better prepared for it if it does happen.

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    911Boss wrote:
    ghillie wrote:
    No statutory requirement, definitely a courtesy. Just like keeping both hands on the steering wheel when the officer is approaching, don't be worming around during the approach, if you have illegally tinted windows, have the window down fully,etc.

    If you are seen with a gun and you have chosen not to advise you have a CPL, the officer will assume the worse until he can feel he has made the scene safe for him/her. How that will play out will be different from officer to officer.

    When does black become white? Answering all questions truthfully and honestly is a courtesy as well, even if they are irrelevant and unnecessary. What if he asks for a voluntary breathalyzer as part of a sobriety checkpoint? Would it be rude to refuse?What if he asks you to consent to a search of your vehicle? It would certainly be courteous to do so.

    My point is the officer only needs certain information to do his job. He may want more, but not providing it isn't wrong. I disagree that it is "courtesy" to complicate things with unnecessary information that could easily lead to an abuse of your rights.

    You said it yourself, "How that will play out will be different from officer to officer." This is just as truefor volunteering the information as it is for not volunteering it and there are a lots of stories about cops going overboard when aware of a legally carried gun.

    Yes, by all means TELL the officer you have a gun IF (and in my opinion ONLY if) it is in "plain view" or there is a chance it will be seen.

    Yes, tell the officeryou have a gun on your person ANYTIME the officer instructs you to exit the vehicle. Why? Because at that point there is a chance it will be seen (see above).

    Otherwise it is legal, acceptable, and safe to not bring it up. Feel free to ALWAYS tell the cop you are carrying if you feel comfortable doing that as well. There really is no "Wrong" answer in this state. My point is that either choice you make could cause problems. If you understand what might happen, I think you are better prepared for it if it does happen.
    I guess my only option is to not respond to you ever again. If there as a "Ignore" button on this forum, I would surely use it on you and your ilk.

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    Both of you guys gave sound advice. It really comes down to personal preference and the officer involved. I personally know some that would more than likely call for a BU unit and take you out of the car in a felony stop manner and I know some that would thank you for letting them know.

    100 people in the same situation will react 100 different ways and exhibit 100 different manners. I think the whole point is to do what you feel is right giving the circumstances because you are the one that has to deal with the return actions or manners.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Something close enough to this happened to me while carrying I figured I would share.

    Couple of years back I was on my way home from a road trip to Ca. to see family. I had just crossed back into Wa. and was stopped by WaSP for speeding. Office either missed seeing my weapon holstered at the small of my back when I reached for my Registration information or waited until I again reached over to put it back into the glovebox to comment on my weapon. I was told I should have informed him I was armed to which I replied I was not required to offer him any information but was happy and willing to answer any questions he wanted to ask. I at that point offered to show him my CPL which he declined but told me that if it had been a younger less experienced office in his place I very well could have found myself being ordered out of my vehicle and onto the ground at gun point. I no longer remember if I told him or just thought the response of "then he would be in the wrong" after this amount of time.


    So to the OP as others have said no legal requirement to inform LEO of a CPL or weapon unless asked.

    And as 911Boss wrote if you do it can create a negative encounter, but so can not offering the info.

    For me, If my weapon is on my person and I am asked to exit my vehicle then I would inform otherwise I will only inform if they ask me about weapons.


    Either approach can cause a negative encounter with LEO's but either approach can cause an encounter to be a non-issue. It will be up to you and your reading of each encounter and those involved as to which approach will less likely cause it to be a negative encounter.
    Something close enough to this happened to me while carrying I figured I would share.

    Couple of years back I was on my way home from a road trip to Ca. to see family. I had just crossed back into Wa. and was stopped by WaSP for speeding. Office either missed seeing my weapon holstered at the small of my back when I reached for my Registration information or waited until I again reached over to put it back into the glovebox to comment on my weapon. I was told I should have informed him I was armed to which I replied I was not required to offer him any information but was happy and willing to answer any questions he wanted to ask. I at that point offered to show him my CPL which he declined but told me that if it had been a younger less experienced office in his place I very well could have found myself being ordered out of my vehicle and onto the ground at gun point. I no longer remember if I told him or just thought the response of "then he would be in the wrong" after this amount of time.


    So to the OP as others have said no legal requirement to inform LEO of a CPL or weapon unless asked.

    And as 911Boss wrote if you do it can create a negative encounter, but so can not offering the info.

    For me, If my weapon is on my person and I am asked to exit my vehicle then I would inform otherwise I will only inform if they ask me about weapons.


    Either approach can cause a negative encounter with LEO's but either approach can cause an encounter to be a non-issue. It will be up to you and your reading of each encounter and those involved as to which approach will less likely cause it to be a negative encounter.

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    Rizzin wrote:
    Something close enough to this happened to me while carrying I figured I would share.

    Couple of years back I was on my way home from a road trip to Ca. to see family. I had just crossed back into Wa. and was stopped by WaSP for speeding. Office either missed seeing my weapon holstered at the small of my back when I reached for my Registration information or waited until I again reached over to put it back into the glovebox to comment on my weapon. I was told I should have informed him I was armed to which I replied I was not required to offer him any information but was happy and willing to answer any questions he wanted to ask. I at that point offered to show him my CPL which he declined but told me that if it had been a younger less experienced office in his place I very well could have found myself being ordered out of my vehicle and onto the ground at gun point. I no longer remember if I told him or just thought the response of "then he would be in the wrong" after this amount of time.


    So to the OP as others have said no legal requirement to inform LEO of a CPL or weapon unless asked.

    And as 911Boss wrote if you do it can create a negative encounter, but so can not offering the info.

    For me, If my weapon is on my person and I am asked to exit my vehicle then I would inform otherwise I will only inform if they ask me about weapons.


    Either approach can cause a negative encounter with LEO's but either approach can cause an encounter to be a non-issue. It will be up to you and your reading of each encounter and those involved as to which approach will less likely cause it to be a negative encounter.
    Something close enough to this happened to me while carrying I figured I would share.

    Couple of years back I was on my way home from a road trip to Ca. to see family. I had just crossed back into Wa. and was stopped by WaSP for speeding. Office either missed seeing my weapon holstered at the small of my back when I reached for my Registration information or waited until I again reached over to put it back into the glovebox to comment on my weapon. I was told I should have informed him I was armed to which I replied I was not required to offer him any information but was happy and willing to answer any questions he wanted to ask. I at that point offered to show him my CPL which he declined but told me that if it had been a younger less experienced office in his place I very well could have found myself being ordered out of my vehicle and onto the ground at gun point. I no longer remember if I told him or just thought the response of "then he would be in the wrong" after this amount of time.


    So to the OP as others have said no legal requirement to inform LEO of a CPL or weapon unless asked.

    And as 911Boss wrote if you do it can create a negative encounter, but so can not offering the info.

    For me, If my weapon is on my person and I am asked to exit my vehicle then I would inform otherwise I will only inform if they ask me about weapons.


    Either approach can cause a negative encounter with LEO's but either approach can cause an encounter to be a non-issue. It will be up to you and your reading of each encounter and those involved as to which approach will less likely cause it to be a negative encounter.
    Whoa, Deja Vu!!! ...

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Toppenish, Washington, USA
    Posts
    17

    Post imported post

    doh, I guess thats what I get for not being more careful with outside spell checking and copy/paste

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    udy wrote:
    Hi I am new here. I read here from time to time, thought I would join up finally. I see bear says it is not required by law. This is interesting to me since I was told other wise when I got my CCW permit from Clark county. I live in Oregon but got a Washington permit about 4 years ago. I will dig up the paper they gave me that said that. I know it is not an Oregon law.
    Welcome to OCDO!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    udy wrote:
    Hi I am new here. I read here from time to time, thought I would join up finally. I see bear says it is not required by law. This is interesting to me since I was told other wise when I got my CCW permit from Clark county. I live in Oregon but got a Washington permit about 4 years ago. I will dig up the paper they gave me that said that. I know it is not an Oregon law.
    Welcome to OCDO!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    282

    Post imported post

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/14518.html

    I had a similar experience not too long ago. The 1st trooper showed a good deal of trust my leaving me alone with the second trooper and leaving the scene.

    I feel it's just the polite thing to do. If it were reversed, I would want to know.....

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