Do Not Speak to Law Enforcement Following A Shooting

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Carondalet wrote:

If this scenario occured, do you pick your brass up while waiting for the cops, ambulance and lawyer, or would you be tampering with "evidence"?

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Why would you want to pick anything up? Do not touch anything unless absolutely necessary for your safety.

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codename_47 wrote:

I know if I refuse a search and one happens anyway, I'll be in court as the Plaintiff.

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I'm sorry to burst your bubble..... but it's obvious you are speaking of being a plaintiff in a lawsuit. So, you claim you gave nobody permission to search. And after they find something criminal in nature in or about your car or person, they all claim under oath that you DID give them permission to search. You have about a 1% or less chance of connvincing a jury that you are telling the truth against the word of two,three or morecops. This is just a fact of life.

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These things can and do happen, and judges are inclined to believe cops when they claim they had cause if they do, in fact, recover any contraband. Your best hope in such cases is the dash-cam recording, if any (these are usually only found in patrol cars - detectives don't usually have them in plain vehicles). Realistically, if such "fruit of the poisonous tree" is offered as evidence, the best you can hope for is to get it suppressed - most lawyers won't bother with a civil suit for their violation ofyour rights. The cops will claim some imaginary "good faith" privilege and go on about their own service record and decorations and such. They almost never break ranks and fail to back each other up as well, even to the extent of committing perjury/obstruction. Unless you have some Rodney King-like footage to back it up, you are probably wasting time and money pursuing it. Be content with not getting convicted. It depends on the particulars, but that's how it pans out most of the time, sadly.

-ljp

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I'm sorry to burst your bubble..... but it's obvious you are speaking of being a plaintiff in a lawsuit. So, you claim you gave nobody permission to search. And after they find something criminal in nature in or about your car or person, they all claim under oath that you DID give them permission to search. You have about a 1% or less chance of connvincing a jury that you are telling the truth against the word of two,three or morecops. This is just a fact of life.

Yes, I am speaking of being a plaintiff in a lawsuit.

And after they find something criminal in nature in or about your car or person, they all claim under oath that you DID give them permission to search.

At which point, I'll break out my evidence to impeach their testimony and credibility, which will be a recording of the entire event, including my refusal to consent to a search. You DO carry around a digital voice recorder of some sort, right? Please don't tell me you carry a gun but not a digital recorder. EVERYONE needs the ability to record on the spot. It can save your life/freedom just as much as a gun can.

I know I won't be able to do much with a perjury charge against them, but I'd go for it.

You have about a 1% or less chance of connvincing a jury that you are telling the truth against the word of two,three or morecops.

Oh, I know how judges/juries generally believe whatever a cop says in court, which is why I record. They could bring out the entire police force to testify, but I think my odds just increased substantially with the recording.

Unless you have some Rodney King-like footage to back it up, you are probably wasting time and money pursuing it.

I'll have the entire encounter on tape. 1983, lets do it!

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codename_47 wrote:

Please don't tell me you carry a gun but not a digital recorder.

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Oh yes, absolutely, I carry a pocket recorder. I learned the hard way back in 1997 when I had a rookie lie about everybody he had done and everything he had said during a critical incident back in 1996. I was a sworn deputy sheriff in Greene County at the time. I made up my mind that would never happen again when I am involved. As a matter of fact I purchaseddigital recorders and put one in every vehicle I own. I change the batteries in all of them every 6 months. And I have advocated here that OC people do the same.

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Sheriff wrote:

codename_47 wrote:

I know if I refuse a search and one happens anyway, I'll be in court as the Plaintiff.

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I'm sorry to burst your bubble..... but it's obvious you are speaking of being a plaintiff in a lawsuit.  So, you claim you gave nobody permission to search.  And after they find something criminal in nature in or about your car or person, they all claim under oath that you DID give them permission to search.  You have about a 1% or less chance of connvincing a jury that you are telling the truth against the word of two, three or more cops.  This is just a fact of life.


 

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It's not a fact of life, and "all" cops don't lie. Stop your typical cop bashing and slander.

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The advice that Ayoob gives in his mostly-useless book In the Gravest Extreme is rougly:

"Officer, I plan to cooperate fully with the investigation, but first I must speak with my attorney." then STFU.

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Officer, I plan to cooperate fully with the investigation
Well, I wouldn't want to lie, so I couldn't say that I am going to fully cooperate with anything. These people are trying to put me in jail. I am not going to cooperate with that.

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codename_47 wrote:

These people are trying to put me in jail.

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Yes sir! And always remember also, a prosecutor does NOT have to honor any agreement or promise a cop gives you in return for your cooperation or confession. Even if the prosectur does learn of any promise or agreement the cop makes to you, which is very seldom, and the prosecutor agess to honor it -- the judge then does NOT have to nonor it. Whenever you hear a cop say the words "I can make this go away", shut up and insist on seeing your attorney before saying another word.

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BrianEMT wrote:

Perception is everything, and even though you are the good guy, you need to be "percieved" as the good guy.

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I think that sentence carries the most weight out of that whole statement. Excellent advice all around.

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codename_47 wrote:

Good grief, why do you guys have to make this hard?

Here is all that you ever need to say to the police,ever, ever, ever in any and all circumstances:

Do you suspect me of a crime?

Am I free to go?

I do not consent to any searches.


I would like a lawyer.

End of discussion. If you say anything else, you are just flirting with danger. Shut your mouth. Some people can't resist. They just have to talk. Stop talking and shut your mouth.

Word for word, that is all you ever have to say or should say. You don't have to tell them your name in most places.

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In many cases I would agree with you.

However

If you just shot a man and the only witness to the event is you and a dead man I suspect the police are going to have way more questions.

What do you hope to gain from paying for a lawyer if you did nothing wrong? Protect you from saying something incriminating?

I have watched enough CSI to see that they need to match up evidence to your statements to prove what you are saying is the truth. They need to know what to preserve and search for to back up what you are saying.

What happens if they move the body and valuable evidence is lost because they did not know to look for it because you did not tell them right away what happened?

They already know you did it! The only thing they probably care about iswhy you did it.

If you don't know what a justified shooting is then maybe you need to put that gun away until you find out.

I am confident I know so I will carry mine and protect me and my family. If I shoot someone I will accept the grilling I am about to receive. It is expected and being the devils advocate I understand why. People lie and try to get away with murder!

I will listen tothe question, think about my answer, pauseand finally respond.

If they want to charge me then so-be-it.

If they read my my Miranda rights and/or say "You're under arrest" then I am going to shut my mouth!!


But I am not going to waste cash on a lawyer if it is not needed.

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Devil's Advocate...

Your post just scares me to death...

First, to base reality on what one sees portrayed in a Television Series is absolutely fraught with peril.

Second, Even though you have not committed a crime and your actions are justified in your mind you still have your constitutional protections... so USE THEM.

My perception is that MANY if not MOST LEO are honorable and truly do want to do the RIGHT thing I also believe the one that responds to my situation MAY NOT BE ONE OF THE HONORABLE ONES. Part of protecting my loved ones is to protect self (one of the reasons I carry... If I am dead I certainly cannot protect them)

Yes, an attorney may be expensive but just like insurance you are much better off with a good gun rights / defense attorney than you are without one.

Just my opinion!

JoeSparky

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Devils Advocate wrote:

If they read my my Miranda rights and/or say "You're under arrest" then I am going to shut my mouth!!

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Bad advice chief. And as for the your quote above, too late, you spilled the beans.

Please review:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

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CSI = Cartoon Science Institutionalized

In writing class it was deus ex machina, a 'sample' is put in the machine and the 'truth' comes out.

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Devils Advocate wrote:

If you just shot a man and the only witness to the event is you and a dead man I suspect the police are going to have way more questions. They can askall the questions they want, nothing requires you to answer them.

What do you hope to gain from paying for a lawyer if you did nothing wrong? Protect you from saying something incriminating? Anything you say CAN and WILL be used AGAINST you. Nothing you say can be used FOR you. You lose not matter what you say.

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I have watched enough CSI to see that they need to match up evidence to your statements to prove what you are saying is the truth. They need to know what to preserve and search for to back up what you are saying. Don't make any statements and this isn't a problem. Also, don't believe everything you see on TV.

What happens if they move the body and valuable evidence is lost because they did not know to look for it because you did not tell them right away what happened? Evidence of what? They are required to prove you did something, not for you to prove you didn't. If they are not competent to process a scene, that is their problem.

They already know you did it! The only thing they probably care about iswhy you did it. They "know" nothing. They might suspect many things, but they know nothing. There will be plenty of time for your lawyer to tell them what happened.

If they read my my Miranda rights and/or say "You're under arrest" then I am going to shut my mouth!! You don't have any Miranda rights.Miranda is simply an advisement that you already have rights. They are important to you. You have the RIGHT to remain silent. You have the RIGHT to have a lawyer present. These rights apply to you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

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I think you should review the links provided by my favorite Simpsons character. That guy is pretty smart.

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It annoys me when cops ask "do you understand the rights I've given you?" Last time I was asked this I said "no, apparently I don't. As I understand it, my rights are not yours to give me." I think it's a worthwhile distinction.

-ljp

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Legba wrote:

It annoys me when cops ask "do you understand the rights I've given you?" Last time I was asked this I said "no, apparently I don't. As I understand it, my rights are not yours to give me." I think it's a worthwhile distinction.

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They honestly use that wording? "...as I have read them to you." or "...as I have explained them to you" is suppose to be how its delivered. Sounds like you have met some lazy LOE. Not sure a "failure to read the suspect his Miranda rights correctly" complaint would stand up in most courts.

Its all about the training.

"As you train, so shall you react." (I know there are other variances, but that's my favorite)

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The guy recited Miranda correctly, but then did use that somewhat curious choice of wording about my understanding of the rights enumerated. I've seen this a couple of times on tv cop shows also, although they usually do phrase it with "as I've explained them to you." Odd.

-ljp

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Doug Huffman wrote:

CSI = Cartoon Science Institutionalized

In writing class it was deus ex machina, a 'sample' is put in the machine and the 'truth' comes out.

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Don't forget: Garbage in, garbage out.

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JoeSparky wrote:

Devil's Advocate...

Your post just scares me to death...

First, to base reality on what one sees portrayed in a Television Series is absolutely fraught with peril.

Second, Even though you have not committed a crime and your actions are justified in your mind you still have your constitutional protections... so USE THEM.

My perception is that MANY if not MOST LEO are honorable and truly do want to do the RIGHT thing I also believe the one that responds to my situation MAY NOT BE ONE OF THE HONORABLE ONES. Part of protecting my loved ones is to protect self (one of the reasons I carry... If I am dead I certainly cannot protect them)

Yes, an attorney may be expensive but just like insurance you are much better off with a good gun rights / defense attorney than you are without one.

Just my opinion!

JoeSparky

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Obviously, CSI is a TV show but they do speak about plausible evidence collection and this is what I was talking about. I do not see this fictional show as reality. So rest easy.

I am well educated and know my rights. I am also not so dumb to commit a crime and talk about it to the police. Furthermore, I know what not to say.

So it is my decision to discuss matters with the police as I see fit.

I completely understand the fear that anyone can have with the notion that the police officer is looking to find a way to charge them with a crime.But not saying anything at all leaves him with nothing but to suspect you must have done something wrong.If he is only getting the other person's statement I can guess what will happen.

I have also watched the videos with the lawyer that were posted by the other member. There are times when this is a good idea! The lawyer wants you to say nothing so he can get you off easier. Keeping quiet is not going to "prevent an arrest." And in some cases it can cause an arrest because of what the other party is saying. This may be your only chance to clear the air about what happened and get your side out.

Your lawyerdoes not really care what happens to you in between the police contact and the court. If you are arrested and booked for something he does not sit in that cell with you! He comes to court, does what he can to get you off, and leaves. HE is happy you shut your mouth. Makes his job easier to get you off since there would be no statements that could be used against you.

It is 1AM and you shot a man in the stomach. He claims you attacked him first and gives this detailed story. You sit there refusing to answer any questions without your attorney.

What do you think will happen?

Being an educated man I suspect the officer would have little choice but to book you for the assault!! Now you have to pay for an attorney when you were just defending yourself. Sure, you can getan attorney. Bring him to court with you. HA!