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Thread: COPS CALLED ON ME FOR OC!

  1. #1
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    Yep, check the blog!

    http://caopencarry.blogspot.com

  2. #2
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    Sounded like the LEO's were cool.

    Vote with your wallet and don't shop at that mall anymore.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Good job-

    Except the part about not having a recorder running.

    The thing that I think illustrates the need to open carry in your anecdote is the fact that it took the police so long to respond. Granted, the reporting party must have indicated that you were not an active shooter, but if a MWAG call is all the police say it is, wouldnt it take less than 15-20 minutes to respond? In my police contact, I had enough time to get a haircut before they showed up.

    As you suggested in your blog, if you were a determined criminal, this response time would have given you adequate time to engage as a homicidal maniac and quite possibly escape. My take on it is that if it takes this long for police to show up to apprehend an armed subject, then it is the obligation of every citizen to be armed to apprehend an assailant in place of inadequate police coverage.
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  4. #4
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    Itlooks lke Escondido is okay about carry-ing openly. Riverside County? I dunno...

    Dale

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    I think that all the questions after they checked to see that your gun was unloaded were extralegal and you could have refused to answer and any detention on that basis would have been unlawful.



  6. #6
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    Mike wrote:
    I think that all the questions after they checked to see that your gun was unloaded were extralegal and you could have refused to answer and any detention on that basis would have been unlawful.

    I kinda figured that but this is my virgin experience with LEOs.

    Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.

  7. #7
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    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.
    This has not yet been legally tested, to my knowledge. I'd give it a 50/50 chance pre-incorporation. Once we have Heller incorporated, I'd bump that up to 95% (though it may take appeals up to the circuit court to do it). It seems that this is standard procedure for most LE agencies, despite it being a violation of our Constitutionally protection against unreasonable search/seizure.

    I am curious about your encounter with the mall security. Did they tell you that they were making a citizens arrest and what crime you had committed? It is possible you have civil grounds for false arrest. As a former 'rent-a-cop' I can tell you that there are very strict rules about confronting a person. Let me summarize my years of training (which I presume has not been changed in the past 5 years since I quit the industry):

    If a reasonable person would believe that the subject is not free to leave, it is an arrest equivalent to placing cuffs on the subject (e.g. surround a subject and telling them to keep their hands where they can be seen and not make any sudden movements).

    Security guards have no powers of arrest above the powers granted to all people: the citizen's arrest. When making a citizen's arrest, the citizen must declare that an arrest is being made and for what crime the arrest is warrented. This must be done BEFORE you take away the subject's freedom to leave (by cuffing/surrounding/ordering). If you fail to do this, you are likely committing battery and false arrest - EVEN IF THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A CRIME. (One obvious exception to this would be if you are trying to prevent an immediate, grave danger to yourself or others. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to assault/batter/etc a guy trying to stab you without first declaring "You're under citizen's arrest for assault with a deadly weapon.")

    (Disclaimer: This is not legal advice.)

    From your blog, it seems you were made to feel that you were not allowed to leave. In effect, you were held against your will. I'm sure you would have posted such if they had declared they were arresting you. It sounds like these guards violated your rights, and the law.

    For your reference, I worked for a loss prevention company (which will not be named due to confidentiality purposes). They got at least once a month for false arrests. The company's policy was to make an offer between $10,000 and $15,000 to make it go away. This was a small company with shallow pockets. A mall (much deeper pockets) would probably dig deeper to try to stay out of court and the local media.

    Until you hit them in the pocketbook their employees will continue to violate the rights of you and your fellow Americans. I feel it is your duty to yourself and the rest of us to pursue this civilly. Don't do it for the money; do it for your country.
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  8. #8
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    I am curious about your encounter with the mall security. Did they tell you that they were making a citizens arrest and what crime you had committed? It is possible you have civil grounds for false arrest. As a former 'rent-a-cop' I can tell you that there are very strict rules about confronting a person. Let me summarize my years of training (which I presume has not been changed in the past 5 years since I quit the industry):

    If a reasonable person would believe that the subject is not free to leave, it is an arrest equivalent to placing cuffs on the subject (e.g. surround a subject and telling them to keep their hands where they can be seen and not make any sudden movements).

    Security guards have no powers of arrest above the powers granted to all people: the citizen's arrest. When making a citizen's arrest, the citizen must declare that an arrest is being made and for what crime the arrest is warrented. This must be done BEFORE you take away the subject's freedom to leave (by cuffing/surrounding/ordering). If you fail to do this, you are likely committing battery and false arrest - EVEN IF THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A CRIME. (One obvious exception to this would be if you are trying to prevent an immediate, grave danger to yourself or others. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to assault/batter/etc a guy trying to stab you without first declaring "You're under citizen's arrest for assault with a deadly weapon.")

    (Disclaimer: This is not legal advice.)

    Until you hit them in the pocketbook their employees will continue to violate the rights of you and your fellow Americans. I feel it is your duty to yourself and the rest of us to pursue this civilly. Don't do it for the money; do it for your country.
    This is something that didn't register with me on the first read through-

    On subsequent police encounters I plan to play it cool and assert my right to remain silent, responding only by questioning officers as to the status of my detainment- but had not considered private security guards attempting to hold me until police arrived. I dont believe private security guards would be as well versed on what they can and can't do and could open a property owner up to some civil liability if they chose to stop someone from leaving or going about their buisness. Things only get worse if they elect to put their hands on someone.

    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
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  9. #9
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    ConditionThree wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    I am curious about your encounter with the mall security. Did they tell you that they were making a citizens arrest and what crime you had committed? It is possible you have civil grounds for false arrest. As a former 'rent-a-cop' I can tell you that there are very strict rules about confronting a person. Let me summarize my years of training (which I presume has not been changed in the past 5 years since I quit the industry):

    If a reasonable person would believe that the subject is not free to leave, it is an arrest equivalent to placing cuffs on the subject (e.g. surround a subject and telling them to keep their hands where they can be seen and not make any sudden movements).

    Security guards have no powers of arrest above the powers granted to all people: the citizen's arrest. When making a citizen's arrest, the citizen must declare that an arrest is being made and for what crime the arrest is warrented. This must be done BEFORE you take away the subject's freedom to leave (by cuffing/surrounding/ordering). If you fail to do this, you are likely committing battery and false arrest - EVEN IF THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A CRIME. (One obvious exception to this would be if you are trying to prevent an immediate, grave danger to yourself or others. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to assault/batter/etc a guy trying to stab you without first declaring "You're under citizen's arrest for assault with a deadly weapon.")

    (Disclaimer: This is not legal advice.)

    Until you hit them in the pocketbook their employees will continue to violate the rights of you and your fellow Americans. I feel it is your duty to yourself and the rest of us to pursue this civilly. Don't do it for the money; do it for your country.
    This is something that didn't register with me on the first read through-

    On subsequent police encounters I plan to play it cool and assert my right to remain silent, responding only by questioning officers as to the status of my detainment- but had not considered private security guards attempting to hold me until police arrived. I dont believe private security guards would be as well versed on what they can and can't do and could open a property owner up to some civil liability if they chose to stop someone from leaving or going about their buisness. Things only get worse if they elect to put their hands on someone.
    OK, any ideas on a course of action? I have the name, phone and email address of the head guy that detained me. This sounds like fun!

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    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    OK, any ideas on a course of action? I have the name, phone and email address of the head guy that detained me. This sounds like fun!
    You should speak or write a letter/e-mail to the owner or management company of the mall. Copy the security head in, but direct it towards the owner. You might ask for copies of the policies regarding detaining of "suspects", why you were detained, and for what crime. Does the mall have any policies against carry?

    eta: You should also send them a pamplet on the current laws that allow for open carry.

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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.
    This has not yet been legally tested, to my knowledge. I'd give it a 50/50 chance pre-incorporation. Once we have Heller incorporated, I'd bump that up to 95% (though it may take appeals up to the circuit court to do it). It seems that this is standard procedure for most LE agencies, despite it being a violation of our Constitutionally protection against unreasonable search/seizure.

    I am curious about your encounter with the mall security. Did they tell you that they were making a citizens arrest and what crime you had committed? It is possible you have civil grounds for false arrest. As a former 'rent-a-cop' I can tell you that there are very strict rules about confronting a person. Let me summarize my years of training (which I presume has not been changed in the past 5 years since I quit the industry):

    If a reasonable person would believe that the subject is not free to leave, it is an arrest equivalent to placing cuffs on the subject (e.g. surround a subject and telling them to keep their hands where they can be seen and not make any sudden movements).

    Security guards have no powers of arrest above the powers granted to all people: the citizen's arrest. When making a citizen's arrest, the citizen must declare that an arrest is being made and for what crime the arrest is warrented. This must be done BEFORE you take away the subject's freedom to leave (by cuffing/surrounding/ordering). If you fail to do this, you are likely committing battery and false arrest - EVEN IF THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A CRIME. (One obvious exception to this would be if you are trying to prevent an immediate, grave danger to yourself or others. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to assault/batter/etc a guy trying to stab you without first declaring "You're under citizen's arrest for assault with a deadly weapon.")

    ...
    Careful with that one. Some security guards, often ones with firearms, also have arrest powers from CA BSIS

    http://www.bsis.ca.gov/industries_regulated/ppo.shtml

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    SenorJefe wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.
    This has not yet been legally tested, to my knowledge. I'd give it a 50/50 chance pre-incorporation. Once we have Heller incorporated, I'd bump that up to 95% (though it may take appeals up to the circuit court to do it). It seems that this is standard procedure for most LE agencies, despite it being a violation of our Constitutionally protection against unreasonable search/seizure.

    I am curious about your encounter with the mall security. Did they tell you that they were making a citizens arrest and what crime you had committed? It is possible you have civil grounds for false arrest. As a former 'rent-a-cop' I can tell you that there are very strict rules about confronting a person. Let me summarize my years of training (which I presume has not been changed in the past 5 years since I quit the industry):

    If a reasonable person would believe that the subject is not free to leave, it is an arrest equivalent to placing cuffs on the subject (e.g. surround a subject and telling them to keep their hands where they can be seen and not make any sudden movements).

    Security guards have no powers of arrest above the powers granted to all people: the citizen's arrest. When making a citizen's arrest, the citizen must declare that an arrest is being made and for what crime the arrest is warrented. This must be done BEFORE you take away the subject's freedom to leave (by cuffing/surrounding/ordering). If you fail to do this, you are likely committing battery and false arrest - EVEN IF THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A CRIME. (One obvious exception to this would be if you are trying to prevent an immediate, grave danger to yourself or others. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to assault/batter/etc a guy trying to stab you without first declaring "You're under citizen's arrest for assault with a deadly weapon.")

    ...
    Careful with that one. Some security guards, often ones with firearms, also have arrest powers from CA BSIS

    http://www.bsis.ca.gov/industries_regulated/ppo.shtml
    Unless they were concealed, these guys didn't have firearms. These are run-of-the-mill rent-a-cops.

  13. #13
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    Quick run down...

    You were falsely imprisoned by the security staff absent your consent to wait for the police...IMO...they can either arrest you for a violation or ask you to leave...

    The police may, per 12031e, check your firearm to determine its loaded status...this is a 4th A violation absent consent or another legitimate reason/violation to detain/investigate/arrest...but the courts have not weighted in on this one yet...maybe never....GO NORDYKE!!!...:celebrate

    Without your consent or other PC to detain/arrest,any further detention for a background check of you or the firearm is not authorized and violates the 4th A....

    But I'm sure you made an impression (good or bad)and educated all present (very good) so we don't mind the detention so much as it suits our purpose...and you walked away a free man...

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    SenorJefe wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.
    This has not yet been legally tested, to my knowledge. I'd give it a 50/50 chance pre-incorporation. Once we have Heller incorporated, I'd bump that up to 95% (though it may take appeals up to the circuit court to do it). It seems that this is standard procedure for most LE agencies, despite it being a violation of our Constitutionally protection against unreasonable search/seizure.

    I am curious about your encounter with the mall security. Did they tell you that they were making a citizens arrest and what crime you had committed? It is possible you have civil grounds for false arrest. As a former 'rent-a-cop' I can tell you that there are very strict rules about confronting a person. Let me summarize my years of training (which I presume has not been changed in the past 5 years since I quit the industry):

    If a reasonable person would believe that the subject is not free to leave, it is an arrest equivalent to placing cuffs on the subject (e.g. surround a subject and telling them to keep their hands where they can be seen and not make any sudden movements).

    Security guards have no powers of arrest above the powers granted to all people: the citizen's arrest. When making a citizen's arrest, the citizen must declare that an arrest is being made and for what crime the arrest is warrented. This must be done BEFORE you take away the subject's freedom to leave (by cuffing/surrounding/ordering). If you fail to do this, you are likely committing battery and false arrest - EVEN IF THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A CRIME. (One obvious exception to this would be if you are trying to prevent an immediate, grave danger to yourself or others. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to assault/batter/etc a guy trying to stab you without first declaring "You're under citizen's arrest for assault with a deadly weapon.")

    ...
    Careful with that one. Some security guards, often ones with firearms, also have arrest powers from CA BSIS

    http://www.bsis.ca.gov/industries_regulated/ppo.shtml
    Wrong. BSIS does not give arrest powers. They issue:

    • PPO's (Private Patrol Operator licensing) - licenses a company to operate uniformed guards (note: only required if guards will be uniformed)
    • Guard Registration - certifies you have had minimal industry training, have been fingerprinted, and passed a background check; allows you to do guard work in uniform.
    • Basic Baton Certificate - allows carrying of fixed batons (requires Guard Reg.)
    • Expandable Baton Certificate - allows carrying of expandable "asp" batons (requires Basic Baton Cert. & Guard Reg.)
    • Tear Gas Certificate - allows purchase/carry of pepper spray canisters containing more than x ounces of spray (I forget the legal limit w/out this permit, but I think it's 1.5 oz.)
    • Permits for Exposed Firearms - Allows the loaded carrying of a specified caliber of firearm; does not exempt from concealement laws. Exempts from school zone rules, etc. Only valid while uniformed. Only valid when on the job and directly to/from. (Requires

    None of these grant special arrest powers, unless this was added in the past 5 years. In my time as a rent-a-cop I endured 8 training courses, including a class on arrest/cuffing techniques. The first 10 minutes of the class was to teach us how to make a citizens arrest, and pounding it into our heads that security guards don't get any special powers of arrest.

    Anybody can buy handcuffs. Anybody can make a citizens arrest. (That's not to say you have to cuff someone to arrest them.) There is no such thing as a civilian Terry stop. You have to witness a misdemeanor to make an arrest, even if the subject freely admits to the unlawful action, you cannot arrest unless you actually witness it. If the crime is a felony, you have to reasonably believe the felony was committed AND you have to reasonably believe the subject was the actor. In both cases you must inform the subject you are placing them under citizens arrest for [insert crime here]; otherwise they can lawfully kick your ass in their attempt to resist your unlawful battering of their person. (That's the pesky innocent until proven guilty thing there.)
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    After typing that lengthy post from memory... found the 1-line answer right there in the Power of Arrest handbook on BSIS's website:

    http://www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/poa.pdf

    see page 8, line 2:

    A security guard’s power to arrest is the same as any other private person’s
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  16. #16
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    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    I think that all the questions after they checked to see that your gun was unloaded were extralegal and you could have refused to answer and any detention on that basis would have been unlawful.

    I kinda figured that but this is my virgin experience with LEOs.

    Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.
    Well, if they see the serial number incident to the check of load condition, I think they can use the number as they like - but, I see no lawful basis to make you wait around or give eprsonal information. This is an issue we need to start researching and perhaps remind the police leaderships about.

  17. #17
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    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    I think that all the questions after they checked to see that your gun was unloaded were extralegal and you could have refused to answer and any detention on that basis would have been unlawful.

    I kinda figured that but this is my virgin experience with LEOs.

    Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.
    Look up Arizona vs Hicks USSC decision.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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