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Thread: Booted from Safeway in Olympia

  1. #1
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    I was walking around for a few minutes with my girlfriend, and approached an associate and asked if they price match, he said no, I thanked him then began walking away. I then noticed the manager rapidly walking directly towards me...

    As she approached, I knew there were going to be questions, but from the look/demeanor/approach I shortly realized it wasn't going to be questions, more like an attack... I smiled and politely asked her 'how are you doing ma'am? what can I do for ya?'

    Very aggresiivly (rudely?), she stammered out an almost incoherent demand, for PAPERS...yes.. papers.... to prove I was OK to carry a gun... I explained that in WA you don't need a permit to carry openly, only if you're carrying concealed, to which her response was 'yes, but I can see it', I pointed out, indeed, that it is the case, which means It's completely legal without a permit, which seemed to confuse her. I then explained to her that safeway follows the gun laws of the state the store is in, to which she said she didn't care, that she was the manager, and she could do what she wanted.. She then DEMANDED I show her my 'gun permit', I reiterated that the law didn't require me to have one, but I explained the limitation of not having a loaded firearm in your vehicle, and explained that I did indeed have one.. She again demanded to see it.. (not asked....demanded).... She seemed to relax when I told her I had a permit, and in the hope of putting the 'misunderstanding' behind us, I held the permit out in a way that obscured my name/address, but was clearly legible as a 'concealed pistol license'.... She then went on the attack again, exclaiming that she had a 'permit' too, and you CAN'T carry like that, concealed means noone can see it, etc... I again attempted to politely explain the law and was interrupted (again).

    She then went on a rant about how 'in these times' and how her employees were scared to death someone was going to rob them... I tried explaining about how I was open carrying, and FBI statistics in relation to crimes involving holsters, and asking her how many times she's been robbed by a couple shopping, but I couldn't get a word in edgewise, I was told 'you're not even in uniform, you can't do that!', when I asked her what a uniform had to do with it she explained that she wouldn't be scared if an officer had a gun on his belt, so I asked her why she's scared of ME, and she said 'because I don't know you!'.. I tried to say 'but you don't know the officer either', but I was again rudely cut off... I was then told that if I 'was trying to be a cop or something' to do it somewhere else, then she said she would call the police...

    I obliged her, and said that was fine, and asked if the police said it was legal that she would let me stay and shop, her response was 'this is private property, I don't have to listen to what the police say, I'm the manager'..For the fifth or six time she alluded to the fact that she didn't want anyone openly carrying a gun 'in her store' unless it was accompanied with a badge and a uniform.. I asked her for a card, which she declined, and again mentioned that she didn't want someone with a gun in her store, I formally asked her if she was asking me to leave, she said yes, I made a point to use her full name as I said 'Thank you' and left.. She was pretty smug/self righteous/disrespectful/etc the entire time she was berating me, refusing to tell anything but 'I'm the manager' but it changed when I mentioned her name... Name tags with your full name on them rock, I gotta tell you...


    Pure ignorance......rude.. disrespectful... implying I was trying to act like a cop.. etc etc...



    I'll be calling corporate first thing in the morning....
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    Creepy... I was working at that store today and wondered if I might see you there. Very creepy.

    On the other hand, sounds like you had a pretty sucky experience. I for one would not have argued much or given stats, or anything like that. Just gotten her name, confirm if she wanted you off the property and then left.

    What time were you there BTW?

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Creepy...¬* I was working at that store today and wondered if I might see you there.¬* Very creepy.¬*

    On the other hand, sounds like you had a pretty sucky experience.¬* I for one would not have argued much or given stats, or anything like that.¬* Just gotten her name, confirm if she wanted you off the property and then left.

    What time were you there BTW?
    I was there ~2045


    She approached me with a very annoyed 'how dare you?!' attitude, I figured I'd attempt to smooth her over and educate...
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    Ahhh, well I was long gone then.
    Figure store managers are like cops. No sense in trying to educate them while they are that angry with you. Just take your lumps and then speak with their boss. I hope it works out for you. Safeway is a pretty professional organization.

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    My response would have been more graphic, comparing her to a female canine doing a sex act on me using three short words comes to mind.

    Can you believe that in this age a private person thinks that they can come up to you and demand to "see your papers". A Nazi salute and compliance at the top of your voice might also be in order.

    A blistering letter to Corporate with documentation will work in this case, but I can dream, can't I?

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    Yup, I'd be definitely calling and writing to corporate. I have NEVER had a problem at any Safeway I've OC'd in.

    I'd make sure to point out the helpful and seemingly un-"scared to death" associate you dealt with just prior to her flipping the b!tch switch.

    As far as trying to educate, my experience is once they are spun up there really isn't much point.


    Keep us posted on any reply you get from Safeway HQ...

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    911Boss wrote:
    Yup, I'd be definitely calling and writing to corporate. I have NEVER had a problem at any Safeway I've OC'd in.
    The way you were treated was totally uncalled for and she was enforcing her own rules, not that of Safeway.

    Get on the phone with safeway corporate and tell them how you were treated and they will set things straight real quick.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    That is too weird, I have had no issues with OC in any Safeway I've ever been in. No matter how much she demanded to see "my papers" I would have told her to shove it, that not even a police officer can demand to see my "papers" while OCing, and certainly not some store manager with a Nazi complex. I would have told her that corporate policy for Safeway is quite clear about following state law, and therefore, the people that really OWN the store have said my carry is quite OK, and would have bid her good day right then and there, and finished my shopping. If she wanted to call the police and make a further scene, then so be it, then I'd have a real case to bring to corporate and my lawyer as well........I try to be extra cordial to others when OCing, but if it's clear to me that from the start the person wants to fight, like it was in this case, I'll stand my ground, push right back as far as the law lets me. Being "nice" isn't going to get you anywhere with those people; they've already made up their mind about you before they ever hear you talk.

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    compmanio365 wrote:
    ....then I'd have a real case to bring to corporate and my lawyer as well........

    What case would you have against corporate with your lawyer? Do you think it's illegal to change their store policy whenever they want? Do you think it's illegal for a manager to enforce a policy that exceeds or is in disagreement with the corporate policy? I don't understand what law you think a manager would be breaking that you could sue over.



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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    mkl wrote:
    compmanio365 wrote:
    ....then I'd have a real case to bring to corporate and my lawyer as well........

    What case would you have against corporate with your lawyer? Do you think it's illegal to change their store policy whenever they want? Do you think it's illegal for a manager to enforce a policy that exceeds or is in disagreement with the corporate policy? I don't understand what law you think a manager would be breaking that you could sue over.

    Not law, that would be a criminal matter that I would bring up to a prosecutor. It would be a civil matter to sue for damages caused by the manager by publicly embarrassing me and others by causing a scene with the police, etc, when there needed to be none. Would I sue the lady? Probably not. But if there's one thing I've learned it's that people suddenly get a lot more cooperative once letters start coming in on official letterhead with my lawyer's name on it.......I'd settle for a written apology from her, or barring that,a writtenapology from Safeway corporate that included the fact that the lady was no longer the manager of that store......not looking for money, just for a lesson learned......and if that lesson has to include the manager losing her job because she refuses to admit she was way out of line and completely unacceptable.....so be it.

    PS - If you think this is really wild, a similar situation to the OP happened to myself and others on Sound Transit a while back.....it cost the supervisor that was acting the same way as this lady his job......so don't think it can't or won't happen.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    compmanio365 wrote:
    mkl wrote:
    compmanio365 wrote:
    ....then I'd have a real case to bring to corporate and my lawyer as well........
    ¬*

    What case would you have against corporate with your lawyer? Do you think it's illegal to change their store policy whenever they want? Do you think it's illegal for a manager to enforce a policy that exceeds or is in disagreement with the corporate policy? I don't understand what law you think a manager would be breaking that you could sue over.

    ¬*
    Not law, that would be a criminal matter that I would bring up to a prosecutor.¬* It would be a civil matter to sue for damages caused by the manager by publicly embarrassing me and others by causing a scene with the police, etc, when there needed to be none.¬* Would I sue the lady?¬* Probably not.¬* But if there's one thing I've learned it's that people suddenly get a lot more cooperative once letters start coming in on official letterhead with my lawyer's name on it.......I'd settle for a written apology from her, or barring that,¬*a written¬*apology from Safeway corporate that included the fact that the lady was no longer the manager of that store......not looking for money, just for a lesson learned......and if that lesson has to include the manager losing her job because she refuses to admit she was way out of line and completely unacceptable.....so be it.

    PS - If you think this is really wild, a similar situation to the OP happened to myself and others on Sound Transit a while back.....it cost the supervisor that was acting the same way as this lady his job......so don't think it can't or won't happen.

    He got fired?
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    TechnoWeenie wrote:
    compmanio365 wrote:
    PS - If you think this is really wild, a similar situation to the OP happened to myself and others on Sound Transit a while back.....it cost the supervisor that was acting the same way as this lady his job......so don't think it can't or won't happen.

    He got fired?
    So it would seem.

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    Wheelgunner wrote:
    A blistering letter to Corporate with documentation will work in this case
    Techno, please tell us you recorded the conversation... No way that was private.

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    compmanio365 wrote:
    ¬* It would be a civil matter to sue for damages caused by the manager by publicly embarrassing me and others by causing a scene with the police, etc, when there needed to be none.¬*
    You think you can bring a civil suit (and have any standing) for refusing to leave when you have been told to by someone who is managing a property to leave for breaking their rules?

    So if I come into your business, break their rules, and refuse to leave, I can sue and win? Sounds good. I think you're off base though.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    mkl wrote:
    compmanio365 wrote:
    It would be a civil matter to sue for damages caused by the manager by publicly embarrassing me and others by causing a scene with the police, etc, when there needed to be none.
    You think you can bring a civil suit (and have any standing) for refusing to leave when you have been told to by someone who is managing a property to leave for breaking their rules?

    So if I come into your business, break their rules, and refuse to leave, I can sue and win? Sounds good. I think you're off base though.



    No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Quit trying to cause an issue where there is none. I wouldn't be "breaking their rules" because Safeway corporate policy is to mirror state law....that manager doesn't OWN the store at all, and must abide by the corporate policy of Safeway. Her actions are completely in the wrong, by Safeway's own WRITTEN POLICIES! How much clearer can I make this for you?

    So her telling me to leave has no more weight behind it than the guy running the shopping cart mover out in the parking lot, because both of them are bound by the policies laid down by upper management, whom actually OWNS the property I'm on. She can call the police, and you know what? They'll probablymake me leave. But she'll have to pay for her actions later on, one way or another.

    Again, would I sue? Most likely not, there'd just be a lot of correspondence between me, my lawyer, and Safeway corporate. In the end, if there was a new manager at that Safeway, one that understood corporate policy and didn't unnecessarily harass and embarrass customers, I'd be happy with that. But if the lady decided she had to call in the SWAT team because I wasn't willing to bend over and follow her orders for "PAPERS!!!11!", then yeah, someone is going to pay for my public embarrassment and time spent dealing with the police. Don't sit there trying to be all righteous and higher than thou, and say you wouldn't do the same, cause we all know that's BS.



    Oh, and yes, I confirmed that the person we all had to deal with from Sound Transit in Tacoma was let go some time ago; heard this straight from the head of operations there in Tacoma. ST was quite apologetic about the trouble we experienced, once they actually got back to me....probably were waiting on feedback from their legal department.

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    compmanio365 wrote:
    No, that's not what I'm saying at all.¬* Quit trying to cause an issue where there is none.¬* I wouldn't be "breaking their rules" because Safeway corporate policy is to mirror state law....that manager doesn't OWN the store at all, and must abide by the corporate policy of Safeway.¬* Her actions are completely in the wrong, by Safeway's own WRITTEN POLICIES!¬* How much clearer can I make this for you?¬*
    You need to make it much clearer I think, because it still doesn't sound correct. You are saying you can sue Safeway because one of their employee didn't follow the Safeway written policies? I don't understand how you think you can sue. Safeway policies aren't laws, they can break them all they want.
    Now it sounds like what you are saying is you believe that legally a Safeway manager does not have the AUTHORITY to ask you to leave the store, is that what you are saying?

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    mkl wrote:
    compmanio365 wrote:
    No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Quit trying to cause an issue where there is none. I wouldn't be "breaking their rules" because Safeway corporate policy is to mirror state law....that manager doesn't OWN the store at all, and must abide by the corporate policy of Safeway. Her actions are completely in the wrong, by Safeway's own WRITTEN POLICIES! How much clearer can I make this for you?
    You need to make it much clearer I think, because it still doesn't sound correct. You are saying you can sue Safeway because one of their employee didn't follow the Safeway written policies? I don't understand how you think you can sue. Safeway policies aren't laws, they can break them all they want.
    Now it sounds like what you are saying is you believe that legally a Safeway manager does not have the AUTHORITY to ask you to leave the store, is that what you are saying?
    Correct, that manager would not have the authority to ask me to leave the store, by their own stated corporate policy. And no, I'm not talking about suing Safeway, but the manager herself.....she is acting alone if she would call the police against the company's stated policies. Safeway, as a company, would have nothing to do with it.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    John Hardin wrote:
    Wheelgunner wrote:
    A blistering letter to Corporate with documentation will work in this case
    Techno, please tell us you recorded the conversation... No way that was private.
    Ironically, the first night in about a yr. that I forget to take it with me....


    ETA:

    The #%)& is getting deeper.... The District manager is scheduled to call me later today...

    I called the store, found out that she's NOT 'the' manager, but one of them, so she lied to me, in addition to everything else... I talked to the store owner, who JUSt got his CPL a few weeks ago, and promised that it would be adressed.. he echoed the 'we're located in a liberal area, so I'd ask you to conceal as well' mentality, but was in 100% agreement that she was way out of line. I asked him about upholding corporate policy, and while he didn't say he would kick me out, he emphasized about a dozen times that he would ask me to conceal, and would 'suggest' I do so when I'm in the store, 'for the sake of the other customers'.. I offered to bring in pamphlets/brochures/etc..about the law, even have a police officer come with me to explain the law, things to look out for instead of just 'a gun', etc. but I was shot down numerous times.. I told him I wanted to educate, to PREVENT this from happening again, and if his employees/customers realized it was legal, and the reasons behind it, and not just 'some guy with a gun', that they might feel more confident and safer with the knowledge that everything is alright.. Instead, his mentality seemed to be one more of 'if you avoid the issue , there won't be one'...... The message I seemed to get from him was..'our employee was totally out of line, but you shouldn't have been carrying openly'... He was very polite, understanding, etc but I don't think avoidance is the proper procedure here..


    So... I'll be talking to the DM shortly...
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    Keep going as far as you have to, as I am sure you will.

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    TechnoWeenie wrote:
    John Hardin wrote:
    Wheelgunner wrote:
    A blistering letter to Corporate with documentation will work in this case
    Techno, please tell us you recorded the conversation... No way that was private.
    Ironically, the first night in about a yr. that I forget to take it with me....


    ETA:

    The #%)& is getting deeper.... The District manager is scheduled to call me later today...

    I called the store, found out that she's NOT 'the' manager, but one of them, so she lied to me, in addition to everything else... I talked to the store owner, who JUSt got his CPL a few weeks ago, and promised that it would be adressed.. he echoed the 'we're located in a liberal area, so I'd ask you to conceal as well' mentality, but was in 100% agreement that she was way out of line. I asked him about upholding corporate policy, and while he didn't say he would kick me out, he emphasized about a dozen times that he would ask me to conceal, and would 'suggest' I do so when I'm in the store, 'for the sake of the other customers'.. I offered to bring in pamphlets/brochures/etc..about the law, even have a police officer come with me to explain the law, things to look out for instead of just 'a gun', etc. but I was shot down numerous times.. I told him I wanted to educate, to PREVENT this from happening again, and if his employees/customers realized it was legal, and the reasons behind it, and not just 'some guy with a gun', that they might feel more confident and safer with the knowledge that everything is alright.. Instead, his mentality seemed to be one more of 'if you avoid the issue , there won't be one'...... The message I seemed to get from him was..'our employee was totally out of line, but you shouldn't have been carrying openly'... He was very polite, understanding, etc but I don't think avoidance is the proper procedure here..


    So... I'll be talking to the DM shortly...

    I would have requested an apology from the "manager" when i was talking to the store owner, when you talk to the DM i would also request an apology from this lady, and not a written one, i would request she apologize in the same manner which she berated you.


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    mkl wrote:
    compmanio365 wrote:
    No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Quit trying to cause an issue where there is none. I wouldn't be "breaking their rules" because Safeway corporate policy is to mirror state law....that manager doesn't OWN the store at all, and must abide by the corporate policy of Safeway. Her actions are completely in the wrong, by Safeway's own WRITTEN POLICIES! How much clearer can I make this for you?
    You need to make it much clearer I think, because it still doesn't sound correct. You are saying you can sue Safeway because one of their employee didn't follow the Safeway written policies? I don't understand how you think you can sue. Safeway policies aren't laws, they can break them all they want.
    Now it sounds like what you are saying is you believe that legally a Safeway manager does not have the AUTHORITY to ask you to leave the store, is that what you are saying?
    Essentially, I think the suit in question would be for harassment/assault, and potentially battery if she attempted to physically take anything/make you leave. Because she didn't have the authority to remove you/trespass you from the store (once it was confirmed by the store's actual owner that she couldn't) - she would not be legally removing you from her property, but attacking you (in a manner of speaking).
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    Asking for papers???? That is insane .Which I think is were we are headed.But anyway .I shop Safeway in a couple of locations for the reason the stores I go in are very receptive polite and have never once hasseled me or anyone with me.There a a couple on this site that heve been with me that can atest to this.

    Side note I walked out of the Federalway Commons Mall OC .Fed way cop I walked by stopped me.He simply asked what I carried,Tanfaglio Witness.He had never seen one.We talked a minute on the merits of different makes and never once did he ask me for ID or even my name.Much less my Papers.I said good day and went on with what I was doing.He did not give me a second glance after that.

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    TW - you are doing a good job of following through with this and I commend you for this.

    I don't want to distract from that but do think we need to realize sometimes that:

    TechnoWeenie wrote:
    there won't be one'...... The message I seemed to get from him was..'our employee was totally out of line, but you shouldn't have been carrying openly'...
    is a common and not always off base line of thinking. There are a lot of rights that we have that are not necessarily best preserved by being "in your face"or exercising them just because we can.

    I know that this is not popular here but sometimes we need to think more about when is the right time to exercise our rights and when is it not. Often exercising them at the wrong time does the cause more harm than good.

    I DON'T THINK THIS WAS NECESSARILY ONE OF THE TIMES THAT IT WAS WRONG TO EXERCISE YOUR RIGHTS. But when you are met with a response such as from this store owner you might have a better shot at talking to him about what you have in common, taking him out shooting somewhere, and letting him open up to the idea/right of Open Carry than you will by running to a DM?

    -adamsesq


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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    Adamsesq, I'm not sure how anyone can be less in-your-face than TW. He's a model of decorum and an excellent representative of our cause. Do you think that he was walking sideways down the aisles with his strong arm raised, finger pointing toward his piece, and yelling, "hey everybody, look at me"? There's no way to exercise the right to open carry without open carrying.

    There's another aspect to this. TW was (and we are) completely reasonable. This alleged manager at Safeway was not. You seem to be asking TW to split the difference between them and accept halfway unreasonable behavior. If the manager has the psychosis known as hopolophobia should she seek treatment or should all the rest of us pretend right along with her that things are not as they are.

    Perhaps you believe that we should negotiate with people who want us dead, like terrorists. How might one compromise with a terrorist? Accept being half dead while the terrorist gives up nothing. This sounds like the long lamentable history of gun control; we give up plenty, they give up nothing. Acknowledged or not, this woman at Safeway believes in, supports, condones, and promotes gun control, to the extent of trying to stop legal activities where she can. Please explain why any of us should behave any differently because of her lack of logic, inability to face life, or refusal to educate herself regarding the issues.

    Please understand that I in no way support aggravating the fears of someone who truly does have a phobia. I've run into this in my travels and it's nothing that I have any intention of exacerbating. Nor is it something TW described in the OP.

    MD

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    Very well said Duck....

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