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My First Open Carry Experience

lcamino1984

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
10
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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Let me start off by saying that I have a lot of respect for you guys who are practicing open carry. I have been carrying concealed for a while and I have learned a lot from the people on this board in regards to the respectful practice of a very important right. I decided tonight that I would open carry for the first time and while the results could have been much worse, they were not positive.
I have been in the market to purchase a couple of new revolvers and I called up to the Silver Bullet in Grand Rapids to see if they had the models I was interested in. Usually they have decent service and they have guns in stock. I was in luck and they did have what I was looking for. I decided that this would be as good a time as any to try open carry for the first time.
I headed over to the place after work with my 642 in my blackhawk holster and they had the guns I had called about all ready for me. I filled out the paperwork, gave the salesman my license and CPL and he suggested I have a look around the store because the paperwork would take a while to fill out. While I was milling about another salesman came over to me and told me that Open Carry was not allowed and I either had to conceal it or lock it in my car. I said "Oh, so only your employees are allowed to open carry?" He said "Yes, only employees." I went to the counter, told the salesman that I had just been kicked out for open carry and that he should cancel the paperwork. He said he was sorry, and I left.
When I got back outside I realized they still had my credit card number (because I had placed a hold on the guns over the phone) so I decided to go back in and get that paper with my card number on it. I thankfully still had my pocket holser in my vehicle, so I converted to pocket carry and went back in with my blackhawk empty. When I walked back in the door 5 of the salesmen were gatherered around the counter talking about me (I know this because one of them said "there he is" and pointed at me). I asked for my paper and the salesman who was helping me earlier said something to the effect that I could now buy those guns that I wasn't carrying mine. I respectfully told him "I'd rather not give you my money if it's all the same to you." As he was handing me my credit card sheet I told him that I had previously bought all my guns from the Silver Bullet and would probably not be back. I guess they didn't want my $1500+.
I have never been kicked out of any place before, and it was very humiliating and embarrasing.
I then had dinner at the Trends Cafe in Caledonia with my 642 back in the blackhawk and no one seemed to notice or care.

So, the tally for the two businesses I visited while open carrying:
Gun store: Kicked out, purchase canceled
Family Resturant: Excelent food and service, no one seems to notice or care, big tip.

So, I guess I just have a few quesitons:
1) Is there a ligitimate reason to not allow open carry at a gun store, and if so, what is it and why are the employees exempt?
2) Is this normal, are most (supposedly) pro-gun people anti-OC?
3) Anyone know of a FFL in SW Michigan who doesn't have a problem with OC? I'm still in the market for those revolvers.

Edit:
Please see the resolution of this issue
Click Here for Resoultion
 

DanM

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Jul 11, 2008
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1,928
Location
West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
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While perhaps earlier you felt humiliated and embarrassed, hold your head up high because I'm proud of you for not opening your wallet to a bunch of hypocrites.

Answers:

1)There's no legitimate reason for any business to prohibit a law-abiding customer from lawfully exercising open carry.

2)My observations have been thatsome, not most, gun owners are anti-OC. I call them "gun owners", though, and not "pro-gun people." You can't be pro-gun and against anylegal firearm or ethical mode of carrying it.

3)I'll have to defer to others; I have no experience to share.
 

lcamino1984

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
10
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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warlockmatized wrote:
The gun store being private property can make any rules they like. If they want only employees to OC then that is the way it will be.

Not ragging on you, just FYI.... We already have a thread for OC stories located here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/11799.html :)
I understand and accept that on private property people can set their own rules. If they say no OC for customers, just for employees, and their reason is "Because I feel like it." that's fine with me, that's their prerogative. I guess I was just asking if there was a tactical or logical reason to do so, or just an emotional one.
At first blush, I tend to agree with DanM that there's no legitimate (i.e. non-emotional) reason to ban OC in a gun store.

I considered adding my story to the open carry experiences thread, but I was more interested in generating discussion about my questions and didn't want to hijack the experiences thread. I will probably cross post in the experiences thread after I have a talk with the owner (as per dougwg's suggestion) and we fully resolve this issue. My fiancee suggested I write them a letter, but I think I'll try to schedule a meeting. I do better in face to face discussions anyway.
If the resolution is nothing more than the owner telling me that's the way it is because he likes it that way (which I suspect it probably will be) then that's fine, and that will close the issue for me.
 

ajelias

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
72
Location
Michigan, USA
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There is a gun store in Sanford ,Mi (near Midland) called Joe Gun Open carry isno problem Give them a call 989-687-4866
 

custom.45acp

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
118
Location
Istanbul, , Turkey
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I'm glad I found this out before I tried the same. I would have been shopping for an ITW holster for my commander style 1911.

I just started competing in IDPA/USPSA and was in the market to have a little gunsmiths service done at Silver Bullet but if they have gun control in the store then I want no part of them. Not only will they be losing OC?
 

ghostrider

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
1,416
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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lcamino1984 wrote:
...

So, I guess I just have a few quesitons:
1) Is there a ligitimate reason to not allow open carry at a gun store, and if so, what is it and why are the employees exempt?
2) Is this normal, are most (supposedly) pro-gun people anti-OC?
3) Anyone know of a FFL in SW Michigan who doesn't have a problem with OC? I'm still in the market for those revolvers.
First, people should keep in mind that Silver Bullet recently had a woman commit suicide in their firing range. While that should not have any bearing on their OC policy, it is something that should be noted IMHO.

Now, onto your questions.

1) While I don't personally think there is a legitimate reason to bar OC, it really doesn't matter since I am not the owner. They can do as they wish with their store. It's a subjective thing. Like saying that there is a legitimate need to own a gun.

2) Many gun owners are anti-OC. I'm with Dan on this. Just because they own guns, doesn't mean they are pro-gun. It just means they are in support of themselves owning guns.

3) Yes, Rylee's Ace Hardware (on Michigan and Fuller) is a good gun shop, and they do allow OC. Ask for Greg (you might even call ahead), and tell him that ghostrider sent you. He may not have what your looking for, but they are happy to order it for you. He has even handed out Venator's MOC info packet in the store. They deserve our business, and He'll be happy to get the guns you asked for. I don't know if he'll match prices, but it's worth a try. Depending on what you get, his prices may even be less than SB's.



Something else.

You should sign up over at Glocktalk. They have a "OC Experiences" thread over there, and Silver Bullet gets good publicity in GT's Michigan section. This experience should be posted there. I'd do it myself, but it wasn't my experience.
 

JAD

New member
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
2
Location
Funky Town, , Tajikistan
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Bob's in Hastings used to have this policy about no CCW unless you are law enforcement. Enough complaints, and now CCW is cool with them.

Silver Bullet just needs to be made to see the error of their ways. Write the letter, and spread your experience to anyone who will listen.
 

DanM

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Jul 11, 2008
Messages
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Location
West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
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JeffSayers wrote:
Devil's advocate here,

Since open carry provides a faster draw, by reserving that speed only for themselves wouldn't that put the shop owners in an advantageous position to defend their stores against a threat?

The error in such a shop owner'sview is that itassumes each customer poses, individually, a threat level requiring them to bedisarmed. I would point out to the ownerthat, without cause,such an assumption about individuals isn't justified.Further, I wouldpress for an answer as to,if that is theirview ofcustomers, why anyone in their right mindwouldsell guns topeople they don't trust tobe responsible with them?
 

SlackwareRobert

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2008
Messages
1,338
Location
Alabama, ,
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If you are willing to let others protect you, then why carry at all?
If it is faster access, why should you be forced to hope that the store employees
can shoot fast and straight if a threat developes.
Good response to withhold money, hope you find the pieces elsewhere.
 

ghostrider

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Jul 24, 2007
Messages
1,416
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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Forgot to mention on Number 3.

Rylyee's is having a sale on November 15 for the Ace Hardware Rewards Card members. 20% off anything that fits in your shopping bag. They also have a 20% sale ever year on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving.Guns are usually included in the sale, but with some restrictions. Call ahead to find out pricing and availability. It's a first come first serve, so there is usually a line.

DanM wrote:
JeffSayers wrote:
Devil's advocate here,

Since open carry provides a faster draw, by reserving that speed only for themselves wouldn't that put the shop owners in an advantageous position to defend their stores against a threat?

The error in such a shop owner'sview is that itassumes each customer poses, individually, a threat level requiring them to bedisarmed. I would point out to the ownerthat, without cause,such an assumption about individuals isn't justified.Further, I wouldpress for an answer as to,if that is theirview ofcustomers, why anyone in their right mindwouldsell guns topeople they don't trust tobe responsible with them?
good point
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
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custom.45acp wrote:
I'm glad I found this out before I tried the same. I would have been shopping for an ITW holster for my commander style 1911.

I just started competing in IDPA/USPSA and was in the market to have a little gunsmiths service done at Silver Bullet but if they have gun control in the store then I want no part of them. Not only will they be losing OC?
It's great you won't shop there, but more effective to also call and tell them they lost your business because of the OC policy. If enough people call and tell them they lost X amount of $ then maybe they will change their minds.
 

lcamino1984

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
10
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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I actually have an update with some positive news. One of the store owners called me today and left a message on my home phone. He apologized and explained it was a newer employee that had asked me to leave. He said that employee asked another employee who was not familiar with Silver Bullet's policies and had been mistakenly informed that OC was not allowed. He said that he would be having a meeting to inform the employees of what he thought was obvious, Silver Bullet is a gun shop, and OC is allowed. I'm going to have a face to face with him sometime later this week, but for now, I am encouraged.
I still feel embarrased for being kicked out, but I'm willing accept that it could have been an honest mistake. I'm not quite to the point of giving them my business again, but I'm willing to talk it over.
 

SQLtables

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Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
894
Location
Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
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lcamino1984 wrote:
I actually have an update with some positive news. One of the store owners called me today and left a message on my home phone. He apologized and explained it was a newer employee that had asked me to leave. He said that employee asked another employee who was not familiar with Silver Bullet's policies and had been mistakenly informed that OC was not allowed. He said that he would be having a meeting to inform the employees of what he thought was obvious, Silver Bullet is a gun shop, and OC is allowed. I'm going to have a face to face with him sometime later this week, but for now, I am encouraged.
I still feel embarrased for being kicked out, but I'm willing accept that it could have been an honest mistake. I'm not quite to the point of giving them my business again, but I'm willing to talk it over.
It was just an employee that kicked you out? Any idea if a manager/owner was around? I don't know how big of a shop it is, so there may not be any managers or anything, but I would have wanted to talk to somebody with the authority to kick me out.

Either way, you handled it very well IMO, and believe me, I know how it is to feel a bit embarrassed about being kicked out of a place. Try it in the middle of dinner with your girl.:p
 

MrsRuger45

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Aug 10, 2008
Messages
110
Location
Flint, Michigan, USA
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I just can't understand why a gun store would not allow OC. I can see stores being apprehensive, but not ones that sell guns. It isn't like they are doing it to protect the customers, it's a gun store!! And when it comes down to it, there is only a piece of fabric between concealed, which is probably allowed,& OC.
 

SQLtables

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Feb 8, 2008
Messages
894
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Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
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MrsRuger45 wrote:
I just can't understand why a gun store would not allow OC. I can see stores being apprehensive, but not ones that sell guns. It isn't like they are doing it to protect the customers, it's a gun store!! And when it comes down to it, there is only a piece of fabric between concealed, which is probably allowed,& OC.
Exactly, but remember, while gun shop owners are usually some of the most "pro-gun" people, we've seen a lot of resistance from "pro-gun"/anti-OCer's.

On the other hand, I can see the issue with some OCing customers wanting to "show" their gun. That's why I see a lot of "do not unholster your firearm" signs.
 

dougwg

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Nov 29, 2007
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MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
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SQLtables wrote:
MrsRuger45 wrote:
I just can't understand why a gun store would not allow OC. I can see stores being apprehensive, but not ones that sell guns. It isn't like they are doing it to protect the customers, it's a gun store!! And when it comes down to it, there is only a piece of fabric between concealed, which is probably allowed,& OC.
Exactly, but remember, while gun shop owners are usually some of the most "pro-gun" people, we've seen a lot of resistance from "pro-gun"/anti-OCer's.

On the other hand, I can see the issue with some OCing customers wanting to "show" their gun. That's why I see a lot of "do not unholster your firearm" signs.
Thats what some are afraid of
 
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