Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Would I be in the wrong?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Klamath Falls, OR
    Posts
    45

    Post imported post

    So I was in my front yard yesterday doing some yard work, when the local meth head looking for work came by. He is also friends with the neighbors who continue to throw **** at my house and car. When I told him that I did not need his services, he started to get agitated and walked closer to me. He got with in 3 in of my face and started talking crap about no one would give him a chance and how he was a black belt and loved to knock around big guys like me. This was totally unprovoked, all I said is that I was ok and did not need any help. Now when I work in the yard I tuck my Ruger in the back of my waist band since I have alot of land and was told that you can carry how ever you want as long as your on your own property. So I started to reach back and un-snapped the holster, and was getting ready to actually have to take the gun out. At this point he gets the hint and starts to become more agitated, but smart enough to walk away. I felt like he was going to do some thing to me, or my 2 year old who was also outside. I felt that we were in danger. If I would have had to draw the weapon, would it be justified? Would there be anything illeagal about it? It was on my property, he would not leave, and he was getting violent. Just curious cause he comes around about every month or so, and it all depends if he is having a good or bad day. Ant info would be great.



    thanks

  2. #2
    Regular Member AZkopper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    673

    Post imported post

    ARS 13-407A: A person or his agent in lawful possession or control of premises is justified in threatening to use deadly physical force or in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of a criminal trespass by the other person in or upon the premises.

    B. A person may use deadly physical force under subsection A only in the defense of himself or third persons as described in sections 13-405 and 13-406.

    C. In this section, "premises" means any real property and any structure, movable or immovable, permanent or temporary, adapted for both human residence and lodging whether occupied or not.



    I'd say your good. As long as he was told to leave first, or the property is posted.

  3. #3
    mdgary
    Guest

    Post imported post

    kashmirsmp wrote:
    So I was in my front yard yesterday doing some yard work, when the local meth head looking for work came by. He is also friends with the neighbors who continue to throw @#$% at my house and car. When I told him that I did not need his services, he started to get agitated and walked closer to me. He got with in 3 in of my face and started talking crap about no one would give him a chance and how he was a black belt and loved to knock around big guys like me. This was totally unprovoked, all I said is that I was ok and did not need any help. Now when I work in the yard I tuck my Ruger in the back of my waist band since I have alot of land and was told that you can carry how ever you want as long as your on your own property. So I started to reach back and un-snapped the holster, and was getting ready to actually have to take the gun out. At this point he gets the hint and starts to become more agitated, but smart enough to walk away. I felt like he was going to do some thing to me, or my 2 year old who was also outside. I felt that we were in danger. If I would have had to draw the weapon, would it be justified? Would there be anything illeagal about it? It was on my property, he would not leave, and he was getting violent. Just curious cause he comes around about every month or so, and it all depends if he is having a good or bad day. Ant info would be great.



    thanks
    CARRYING
    No person shall carry a firearm “concealed on his person.” This does not apply to a person in his dwelling, business premises or on real property owned or leased by that person. A handgun carried in a belt holster which is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage is not considered carrying concealed.

    http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/AZSL.pdf

    You were in the right, If it were me, and my child was outside with me and this crack head approached with an attitude He wouldbestaring at a pipe that only smokes after a chunk of lead leaves the barrel...


  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona, U.S.
    Posts
    625

    Post imported post

    I learned in the CCW class that in Arizona you can threaten with deadly force to prevent criminal trespass. This may not be a good idea because although you may threaten you cannot actually use deadly force unless your life is in danger. I think the way I would have done this (although I wasn't there) would be to talk my way out of this guy's confrontation by acting cool with him. As soon as I did this I would have gone right inside my house and come back out with a shotgun. Without actually pointing the shotgun at him, I would tell him that he must immediately leave the property and that if he ever even sets foot anywhere on the premisis again, he will be arrested for trespassing. Now if the person started coming at me, I would go inside and lock the door. If for anyreason he forced his way in or I couldn't get the door closed in time, once he was actually inside, I would have a lot of mopping and vaccuming to do.



  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    kashmirsmp wrote:
    SNIP he started to get agitated and walked closer to me. He got with in 3 in of my face and started talking crap about no one would give him a chance and how he was a black belt and loved to knock around big guys like me. This was totally unprovoked, all I said is that I was ok and did not need any help. Now when I work in the yard I tuck my Ruger in the back of my waist band since I have alot of land and was told that you can carry how ever you want as long as your on your own property. So I started to reach back and un-snapped the holster, and was getting ready to actually have to take the gun out. At this point he gets the hint and starts to become more agitated, but smart enough to walk away. I felt like he was going to do some thing to me, or my 2 year old who was also outside. I felt that we were in danger. If I would have had to draw the weapon, would it be justified? Would there be anything illeagal about it? It was on my property, he would not leave, and he was getting violent. Just curious cause he comes around about every month or so, and it all depends if he is having a good or bad day. Ant info would be great.
    Massad Ayoob, in his video Judicious Use of Deadly Force, discusses the very point about being confronted by a martial artist or boxer. The disparity of force changes. Its no longer just one against one.

    You should seek and read up on Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy/Intent. He had the self-professed ability (martial arts), he had the opportunity being only 3" away. All that was lacking, it seems to me,was solid Jeopardy/Intent--he wasn't doing or saying anything that would make a reasonable person believe he was really going toimmediately cause grave bodily injury or death. He was in vicinity of it, but not quite there yet.

    Tactically, don't let anybody like thisget that close. One sucker punch to the head and you're possibly out cold, your weapon is his to pick up, your son or family are now at his mercy. If somebody like this moves in that close, back up--distance is your friend, as they say.

    Although he wasn't clearly demonstrating Jeapordy/Intent, he was close enough that if he had closed that triangle (AOJ/Intent), you quite possibly would not have had time to react and defend effectively.

    From the other posts, it looks like you would have been legal to draw based on the criminal trespass point.

    Leaving out the criminal trespass angle, I shouldhope that, depending on where your son was, and whether you could create distance for yourself without leaving him in jeopardy, you might have been legal to draw even if not on your own property. At a certain point, where you no longer have enough distance, no longer have enough time to react, you can't wait until AOJ are all present to draw,(drawing beingdifferent than shooting.) Action beats reaction. If it takes you 1.5 seconds to draw and deliver two rounds to center of mass, he can hit you three times in the head. The first hit will likely land before you even decide to reach for the gun. Or, depending on your reaction time, even raise an arm to block the blow. I don't know your state law on this point, though. Its important to understand that I'm including his self-professed martial arts ability, self-professed affinity for knocking people around, his hostility, and his proximity in the equation.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  6. #6
    mdgary
    Guest

    Post imported post

    protector84 wrote:
    I learned in the CCW class that in Arizona you can threaten with deadly force to prevent criminal trespass. This may not be a good idea because although you may threaten you cannot actually use deadly force unless your life is in danger. I think the way I would have done this (although I wasn't there) would be to talk my way out of this guy's confrontation by acting cool with him. As soon as I did this I would have gone right inside my house and come back out with a shotgun. Without actually pointing the shotgun at him, I would tell him that he must immediately leave the property and that if he ever even sets foot anywhere on the premisis again, he will be arrested for trespassing. Now if the person started coming at me, I would go inside and lock the door. If for anyreason he forced his way in or I couldn't get the door closed in time, once he was actually inside, I would have a lot of mopping and vaccuming to do.


    What about the child ,What would you do with him/her? If you're running inside, Do you leave the child outside?

    You're number 1concern should be your childs safety..




    thanx for the editor

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    6

    Post imported post

    I would have gone inside with my child. I would then reappear outside with a telephone and a 12 gauge. It would be like this, I feel threatened, the cops are on the way, please leave my property or there will be a 1 ounce slug in your head... if there is anything left of it...

  8. #8
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Gone
    Posts
    3,958

    Post imported post

    mdgary wrote:
    CARRYING
    No person shall carry a firearm “concealed on his person.” This does not apply to a person in his dwelling, business premises or on real property owned or leased by that person. A handgun carried in a belt holster which is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage is not considered carrying concealed.

    http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/AZSL.pdf

    You were in the right, If it were me, and my child was outside with me and this crack head approached with an attitude He wouldbestaring at a pipe that only smokes after a chunk of lead leaves the barrel...
    This is Arizona. When outdoors (or anywhere else for that matter) OC is perfectly acceptable. There's no need to conceal anythng... and no 'permit' required to bear arms. If the OP had been wearing his sidearm correctly... the tweaker would most likely not bothered him at all. This 'behind the back' crap is 'Hollywood'. Wear it on yer hip where it belongs. The OP doesnt indicate his pos. The martial arts thing (prob'ly BS... but nonetheless) could be viewed as communicating a threat. Never let a BG get that close to you. On your own property... not even within' the boundaries. Dunno what the response time of the Popo's is in Prescott... but down here you're gonna haf'ta wait awhile. Don't engage in any conversations. Tell 'em: 'Get off my property" No 'Please' included. If they persist... draw on 'em. If they're adamant... shoot 'em. This tweaker had friends... you're already outnumbered.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Yuma, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5

    Post imported post

    You should've warned him that you were armed, and then told him to stop advancing, once he started to get irate. Seen below is as chart that may give you somewhat of an idea. That's a simplified version of the USMC's deadly force authorization chart. If they escalate force, you do the same to counter their actions.



    As soon as he started coming towards me, I would have told him (In a firm, stern voice) to stop immediatly. Since you did feel threatened, and felt as though he may have done something, you were probably justified to draw on him. Now, I was taught not to draw unless your going to shoot, but in the civilian world, things are different. Just remember: Escilation of Force... Just my $0.02.





Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •