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Thread: Nightline and ABC covers surge in gun sales

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Video at links
    http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/ See Firearms Stockpiling
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6209255&page=1
    Obama's Election Sparks Gun Sales Up in Arms: Post-Election Fears Cause Surge in Gun Sales By RYAN OWENS Nov. 7, 2008—

    While shoppers are cutting back on almost everything, sales of one item are suddenly soaring -- guns. Buyers across the country are snapping up firearms at a record pace
    At 9 a.m. today, the counter was already crowded at Cheaper Than Dirt, a discount gun and ammunition store in Fort Worth, Texas.
    "Everyone is here for the same reason: Buy it now or you're not going to have a chance in the future," said Charlie Street, a gun owner.
    At Cheaper Than Dirt alone, more than $100,000 in guns and ammunition have been sold every day since Election Day. Buyers are stocking up before President-elect Barack Obama takes office.
    "Election Day, people wake up and say, 'Obama, oh my!'" said Dewayne Irwin, owner of Cheaper Than Dirt. "It's the knee-jerk reaction but it's good for business."
    Business is so good that Irwin spent the morning furiously calling suppliers to find more guns.
    "You can't find an AK-47 from a distributor anywhere in the nation," Irwin said, looking at his computer and checking on inventory.
    Sales are brisk across the West. Background checks for new gun owners jumped 15 percent last month, according to Federal Bureau of Investigation data.
    Colorado just set a record for the highest number of background checks for new gun owners, nearly 1,500 in a single day, according to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation.
    Obama says he supports the right to bear arms with reasonable restrictions. But that has not been enough reassurance for some people or enough to quell the spreading fear among gun owners.

    The National Rifle Association Web site encouraged NRA members to go out and buy guns.The site's news scroll read, "Gun stores report brisk business after Obama election >>>> Run on Guns in Texas!"
    Some guns are selling more than others. Assault rifles are especially popular because Obama supports renewing the expired federal ban on assault weapons.
    For some voters, issues like the economy took precedence over gun control.
    "One of the strangest things I've had happen in the past few weeks was that I've had people coming in here wearing Obama buttons and Obama T-shirts," Glen Parshall, owner of a local Fort Worth gun shop. "[They] tell me they're in here to buy them before he bans them."
    Copyright © 2008 ABC News Internet Ventures




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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    [flash=425,344]http://www.youtube.com/v/8zjoJPDPYmE&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]

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    I was in Cheaper Than Dirt this morning doing some "last minute shopping" and the video accurately reflects my experience talking with other customers and sales people. Same story at Euless Guns and Ammo. Black rifles flying off the racks. But I guess I'm not saying anything we didn't all already know.

    I hope the new administration is taking note of this.

    Thanks for posting that longwatch.


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    cccook wrote:
    I hope the new administration is taking note of this.
    Don't worry, they are. They're probably already on the phone to the FBI to make sure those background check records are shunted off to the special hard drives.

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    Thanks for the video, LW.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Don't worry, they are. They're probably already on the phone to the FBI to make sure those background check records are shunted off to the special hard drives.
    Where the data will sit untouched because you can't possibly process that much of it.

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    FogRider wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Don't worry, they are. They're probably already on the phone to the FBI to make sure those background check records are shunted off to the special hard drives.
    Where the data will sit untouched because you can't possibly process that much of it.
    You have computers, and of course it's easy to make a list of names and addresses of gunowners. Remember the other thread about the BATFE ripping off a software company that was comuterizing 4473's?NICS checks are already computerized. Back in the Janet Reno days the FBI got caught keeping the records for several months. They've since been "ordered" not to do it, but what do you think?

    Fact is, once that information goes out you have no control over it and no idea of what's really being done with it. And you're trusting a wolf to guard the dogfood.

    The machinery has been in place since NICS was invented. Given all the other crap that's been done since 9/11 as far as phone tapping and stuff goes, it seems pretty naive to assume that these sorts of records aren't being trawled through already.

    4473s and NICS need to go.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    You have computers, and of course it's easy to make a list of names and addresses of gunowners. Remember the other thread about the BATFE ripping off a software company that was comuterizing 4473's?NICS checks are already computerized. Back in the Janet Reno days the FBI got caught keeping the records for several months. They've since been "ordered" not to do it, but what do you think?

    Fact is, once that information goes out you have no control over it and no idea of what's really being done with it. And you're trusting a wolf to guard the dogfood.

    The machinery has been in place since NICS was invented. Given all the other crap that's been done since 9/11 as far as phone tapping and stuff goes, it seems pretty naive to assume that these sorts of records aren't being trawled through already.

    4473s and NICS need to go.
    Don't get me wrong, I hate the the fact the data is being collected, and the Big Brother concept in general. I just don't think there is enough computing power to do anything useful. I have several friends whose jobs are mostly about data management, and they all say the same thing: once you reach a cretain amout of information you just can't do anything with it. Sure, you have it (and like I said, I don't like that), but you can't sort it, you can't find specific records, you can't do anything in a useful amount of time. There just are not computers powerful enough to do it.

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    FogRider wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    You have computers, and of course it's easy to make a list of names and addresses of gunowners. Remember the other thread about the BATFE ripping off a software company that was comuterizing 4473's?NICS checks are already computerized. Back in the Janet Reno days the FBI got caught keeping the records for several months. They've since been "ordered" not to do it, but what do you think?

    Fact is, once that information goes out you have no control over it and no idea of what's really being done with it. And you're trusting a wolf to guard the dogfood.

    The machinery has been in place since NICS was invented. Given all the other crap that's been done since 9/11 as far as phone tapping and stuff goes, it seems pretty naive to assume that these sorts of records aren't being trawled through already.

    4473s and NICS need to go.
    Don't get me wrong, I hate the the fact the data is being collected, and the Big Brother concept in general. I just don't think there is enough computing power to do anything useful. I have several friends whose jobs are mostly about data management, and they all say the same thing: once you reach a cretain amout of information you just can't do anything with it. Sure, you have it (and like I said, I don't like that), but you can't sort it, you can't find specific records, you can't do anything in a useful amount of time. There just are not computers powerful enough to do it.
    I have to disagree with that. I work as a software developer configuring a packaged CRM (customer relationship management) software. Basically, it's a web based front end to a database.

    The only thing protecting us is that all that data is recorded on paper forms, and stored locally, in each individual gun store. If they managed to get all of the data from those forms, which includes your name, address, and a complete description of the weapons you are buying down the serial numbers, then they would have their national registry of firearms and firearm owners. Sure, that would take years, perhaps even decades. But how do you know they haven't been working on it for years already?

    Now technically, they aren't allowed to take the 4473's out of the gun store without a warrant, but when any store closes, the 4473's go to the BATFE. I find it hard to believe that they haven't been working on computerizing at least those.

    They will probably never have a fully accurate firearms registry, but with some work, they could put together an incomplete one that could do a lot of damage if confiscation ever came into play.

    I honestly don't have a problem with the NICS checks (well, not a huge problem). It's the 4473s that I don't like.

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    Has anyone considered the fact that a lot of government agencies have access to, not computers as we know them, but super computers.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
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    Would that be like the super computers that some colleges have i.e. Virginia Tech, etc...

    Not to mention there are programs like that used by SETI that combine the power of lots of computers to do processing. Essentially it parses the work to be done into multiple pieces and the computers running the program are each given some of those pieces to process and then feed the data back. Essentially it makes a lot of pc's into one big one.

    And if the data is there all you need is what criteria that you want and this also depends on the data they store.

    Anyhow I know sales in Va are ridiculous as well.

    But I am also hoping that none of the current members of the government that will be up in 2 years as well as their soon to be head are not willing to shoot themselves in the foot by touching firearms in general.

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    FogRider wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    You have computers, and of course it's easy to make a list of names and addresses of gunowners. Remember the other thread about the BATFE ripping off a software company that was comuterizing 4473's?NICS checks are already computerized. Back in the Janet Reno days the FBI got caught keeping the records for several months. They've since been "ordered" not to do it, but what do you think?

    Fact is, once that information goes out you have no control over it and no idea of what's really being done with it. And you're trusting a wolf to guard the dogfood.

    The machinery has been in place since NICS was invented. Given all the other crap that's been done since 9/11 as far as phone tapping and stuff goes, it seems pretty naive to assume that these sorts of records aren't being trawled through already.

    4473s and NICS need to go.
    Don't get me wrong, I hate the the fact the data is being collected, and the Big Brother concept in general. I just don't think there is enough computing power to do anything useful. I have several friends whose jobs are mostly about data management, and they all say the same thing: once you reach a cretain amout of information you just can't do anything with it. Sure, you have it (and like I said, I don't like that), but you can't sort it, you can't find specific records, you can't do anything in a useful amount of time. There just are not computers powerful enough to do it.
    Respectfully you have not thought this through. It can be done, not saying it would be easy but it can be done. Big old iron work horse for a backend well thought out DB structure its quite possible.
    Best example Social Security Administration (SSID) covers everyone born in the US you dont think thats 1 big fat DB? Think about it.

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    smccomas wrote:
    FogRider wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    You have computers, and of course it's easy to make a list of names and addresses of gunowners. Remember the other thread about the BATFE ripping off a software company that was comuterizing 4473's?NICS checks are already computerized. Back in the Janet Reno days the FBI got caught keeping the records for several months. They've since been "ordered" not to do it, but what do you think?

    Fact is, once that information goes out you have no control over it and no idea of what's really being done with it. And you're trusting a wolf to guard the dogfood.

    The machinery has been in place since NICS was invented. Given all the other crap that's been done since 9/11 as far as phone tapping and stuff goes, it seems pretty naive to assume that these sorts of records aren't being trawled through already.

    4473s and NICS need to go.
    Don't get me wrong, I hate the the fact the data is being collected, and the Big Brother concept in general. I just don't think there is enough computing power to do anything useful. I have several friends whose jobs are mostly about data management, and they all say the same thing: once you reach a cretain amout of information you just can't do anything with it. Sure, you have it (and like I said, I don't like that), but you can't sort it, you can't find specific records, you can't do anything in a useful amount of time. There just are not computers powerful enough to do it.
    Respectfully you have not thought this through. It can be done, not saying it would be easy but it can be done. Big old iron work horse for a backend well thought out DB structure its quite possible.
    Best example Social Security Administration (SSID) covers everyone born in the US you dont think thats 1 big fat DB? Think about it.
    Get a "hit" on a NICS search? A dossier of significant information about anyone can be quickly assembled from existing records in the IRS, SSA, USPS (they deliver to every address in the US, remember) and DOD. (The gov't owns all these data: No permission is required.) Don't forget the willingness of the telecommunications companies, FDIC insured banks, and credit bureaus to cooperate.
    Oh yeah, the medical insurance carriers will gladly provide their data too. Read their "privacy policies". Any and all local LEAs that might be queried (from an address history) will also cheerfully cough up what they have on file. Employment history? SSA already has that. All this is easily extended to family members.

    And you're worried that the gov't might know what firearms you own?
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    You want a scary look at how much data the government collects on you and from what sources? Read The Shadow Factory by James Bamford. And be afraid. Be very afraid. After reading that book I'm scared to use the internet or talk on the phone. Makes me want to go hide in a cave somewhere. Collecting data from NICS or digitized 4473s is child's play compared to some of the stuff that's going on these days.

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    FogRider wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    You have computers, and of course it's easy to make a list of names and addresses of gunowners. Remember the other thread about the BATFE ripping off a software company that was comuterizing 4473's?NICS checks are already computerized. Back in the Janet Reno days the FBI got caught keeping the records for several months. They've since been "ordered" not to do it, but what do you think?

    Fact is, once that information goes out you have no control over it and no idea of what's really being done with it. And you're trusting a wolf to guard the dogfood.

    The machinery has been in place since NICS was invented. Given all the other crap that's been done since 9/11 as far as phone tapping and stuff goes, it seems pretty naive to assume that these sorts of records aren't being trawled through already.

    4473s and NICS need to go.
    Don't get me wrong, I hate the the fact the data is being collected, and the Big Brother concept in general. I just don't think there is enough computing power to do anything useful. I have several friends whose jobs are mostly about data management, and they all say the same thing: once you reach a cretain amout of information you just can't do anything with it. Sure, you have it (and like I said, I don't like that), but you can't sort it, you can't find specific records, you can't do anything in a useful amount of time. There just are not computers powerful enough to do it.
    They have enough computing power to data-mine telephone conversations worldwide on a daily basis. All they have to do is put the database through a google search and bammo.

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    If you live in one of the free states where there is no requirement for private party transfers to go through a dealer, then there is no way for the government to know what you currently have. "Why yes officer, I did purchase that evil black rifle 3 years ago, but I sold it to a guy 6 months ago. No, I don't recall his name. No I didn't get an address, but he assured me that he was a state resident and not a prohibited person."

    I have bought and sold several guns this way, all with no government paperwork or record. I will continue to do so until it is forbidden by law.

    Unfortunately, I realize that not to many people are getting rid of there collections right now. They aren't going to go down in value, and if the worst happens,their valuewill increase dramatically.

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    Slayer of Paper wrote:
    Now technically, they aren't allowed to take the 4473's out of the gun store without a warrant...
    We've had ATF guys show up and demand the original 4473 forms for use as evidence (only once, if it's any consolation). I called the regional industry operations director and he said that yes, the forms are the property of the government, that we would have to make copies for our own record keeping requirements, and that the originalswere to be surrended forthwith to the agents 'asking' for them. They didn't bother with any warrant.

    -ljp

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    Gordie wrote:
    If you live in one of the free states where there is no requirement for private party transfers to go through a dealer, then there is no way for the government to know what you currently have....
    ...I have bought and sold several guns this way, all with no government paperwork or record. I will continue to do so until it is forbidden by law.
    And now that you've posted this fact on the internet, the government knows you own firearms, if they bother to datamine this website or your ISP. As long as you are on gun boards, you are probably a gun owner, and you are easy to find, a lot easier than you think you are. And "probably" is good enough once the rule of law goes out the window.

    The only way to completely hide your activities and interests is to basically convert to Amish and live in a cave.

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    Unfortunately with technology as it is, there really is no hiding off of the grid. But it is a tempting idea considering that a person can survive nicely on their own with all of the comforts of home available due to the availability of small power plants. It is tempting, isn't it?

    A good way to live is to just consider any statement uttered out of your mouth to be possibility recorded and attributed to you in some DB somewhere. That may sound like paranoia, but the technology for surveillance is spectacular and has been for a VERY LONG TIME. I don't suggest making a hat out of tin foil, but I do think we all need to accept that any information or statement we make available to anyone else whether it be in print of voice, will be intercepted by someone planning to use it against us. It sounds like paranoia, but it is also practical.

    The Air Force taught that when I PCS'd back in 2002. We were to consider every move and conversation as being scrutinized and watched by the enemy. Who the enemy is remains to be seen.
    I aim to misbehave

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    I used to be afraid of the state using data mining and whatnot to barge into our privacy.

    After seeing how incompetent the state is at doing anything, and seeing some state run computer systems, I am no longer afraid. Computers are too complicated for the state to use effectively....

    Remember, they will hire the cheapest programmers with no skills whatsoever.

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    Oh yeah, good point. It's like when they just happened to lose a computer full of military personnel information from Tricare and we all were told to watch our accounts after that.
    I aim to misbehave

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    The state is also incompentent at preventing terrorism and screening airline passengers. But that does not mean the Homeland Security Department is not a threat to your liberty. A tyrant's incompetent soldiers are, in many ways, just as scary or even scarier than the competent ones. After all, once they determine that they can't figure out exactly who has a gun, they'll just start guessing. Who's safe, then?

    The point I'm trying to make is not that you have to be paranoid. It's probably far too late for anyone on this website, anyway. But you do need to be aware of the threat and willing to oppose it legally and politically. Understand that activism draws scrutiny from unsavory characters with titles and badges, etc., and be ready to deal with it. Panicking, building bomb shelters, burying your guns, or whatever, is going to do yu much good in the long run, and won't help make your country any freer (although, of course, there are times and places for everything...).

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    opusd2 wrote:
    Oh yeah, good point. It's like when they just happened to lose a computer full of military personnel information from Tricare and we all were told to watch our accounts after that.
    I remember that one. The threat of identity theft was huge, since they had nams, addresses, SSN's and dates/places of birth.

    Speaking of stupid systems, NICS has me in a "delayed" status now. I can only assume it's due to the huge surge in recent firearms sales nation-wide.

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    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    Remember, they will hire the cheapest programmers with no skills whatsoever.
    Actually.... The government hires some really decent coders.

    The thing is, the coders' bosses tend to use the mentality of "This is what they SAID they, not what will work." This lets them make a NEW contract for a NEW piece of software.

    Or at least, so says a coder buddy of mine that works for one of those big g'ovt teat-suckers in the NoVa region.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    FogRider wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    You have computers, and of course it's easy to make a list of names and addresses of gunowners. Remember the other thread about the BATFE ripping off a software company that was comuterizing 4473's?NICS checks are already computerized. Back in the Janet Reno days the FBI got caught keeping the records for several months. They've since been "ordered" not to do it, but what do you think?

    Fact is, once that information goes out you have no control over it and no idea of what's really being done with it. And you're trusting a wolf to guard the dogfood.

    The machinery has been in place since NICS was invented. Given all the other crap that's been done since 9/11 as far as phone tapping and stuff goes, it seems pretty naive to assume that these sorts of records aren't being trawled through already.

    4473s and NICS need to go.
    Don't get me wrong, I hate the the fact the data is being collected, and the Big Brother concept in general. I just don't think there is enough computing power to do anything useful. I have several friends whose jobs are mostly about data management, and they all say the same thing: once you reach a cretain amout of information you just can't do anything with it. Sure, you have it (and like I said, I don't like that), but you can't sort it, you can't find specific records, you can't do anything in a useful amount of time. There just are not computers powerful enough to do it.
    You have a useful sorting tool called REAL ID.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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