OpenCarry.org badmouthed by NRA Instructor

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So I went to a CPL Class today. To make my life a little easier for OCing. I wasn't to impressed with my instructor. We got on the topic of OC during one of our breaks and he basically said we were a bunch of crazies. When he resumed class we were just finishing up our discussion and decided to fill in the whole class about OpenCarry.org (mentioned by name) and bad mouthed us. I spoke up and said that I'm a member. He thinks it is illegal I didn't get a chance to debate it with him. I am planning on writing a letter to him once I get my certificate. I feel the need to point out that he should teach what the law says and not his opinion of what the law says.

I don't think he liked me very much. I made a point to tell him he was wrong on a couple things. He had a video that said while transporting without a CPL your gun has to be in a separate container than the ammo. After the video he restated the same thing. I decided to speak up and inform him thatthe lawdoesn't say that. He told me that it does I just didn't see it and he would find it for me. Of course he didn't.

There were also questions on the test that I would have got wrong if I answered them correctly. I knew that I had to answer based on his biased opinion and not on the law or facts. We went over the test later and low and behold I was right. I am going to point this out to him also and see what he says. He made a point to act as though he was challenging all day so I doubt I will get a positive response.

I'm Also thinking of writing a letter to the NRA. This was not a NRA class but he is a NRA instructor.

Give me your thoughts please.

On a side note I did meet someone who has been OCing since 2004 and is a member of this forum. I forgot to get his screen name though

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i would have asked for a refund.... and took the business else where... and told him in front of "the class" that "I" (you) wish not to be instructed by some one for a concealed carry class when he doesnt even know what is and is not allowed in this state.

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My wife took a NRA basic pistol class last year to get her permit and I tagged along. I thought it was a complete joke. Her instructor didn't talk about any laws what so ever and stuck to his training materials which was complete on - this is a revolver, this is a semi-automatic, these are bullets, etc etc. I don't think they know anything about gun laws or are allowed to comment on them. They just stick to their training materials with their blinders on.

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If he is teaching people wrong about LAW then he needs to be reported to the NRA ASAP!

It is your duty to report the instructor.

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dougwg wrote:

If he is teaching people wrong about LAW then he needs to be reported to the NRA ASAP!

It is your duty to report the instructor.

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Agreed!

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LittleMan wrote:

Give me your thoughts please.

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The NRA depends on infringements to the Second Amendment for its raison d' etre, its reason for being, the sale of dispensations from these infringements.

The 2A does not allow requirements like mandatory training, but the common conception of 'reasonableness' allows the NRA to promote and sell training.

The 2A does not allow requirements like mandatory licensed concealment, but the common conception of 'reasonableness' allows the NRA to promote and sell the bureaucratic exemptions from this infringement.

The 2A does not require lobbyists, except in the NRA conception of legislating 'reasonable regulation' to keep the Sarah Brady Boogeyman at bay. The NRA 'subscriptions' pay these empty hat gallus snappers.

The NRA is the other side of Sarah Brady's slice of bull-sh!t bologna! One can't survive without the other to be the bad cop to their gullible clients. Gun control is about control, be it from the liberals or the repugnicans.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$

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Puddin99 wrote:

Her instructor didn't talk about any laws what so ever and stuck to his training materials which was complete on - this is a revolver, this is a semi-automatic, these are bullets, etc etc. I don't think they know anything about gun laws or are allowed to comment on them. They just stick to their training materials with their blinders on.

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Depends on the State, the jurisdiction. My lesson plan was required to be approved by South Carolina as part of my CWP instructor certification and had to cover statute law, case law and common law on gun carry. This in addition to mechanics, technique and safety.

The NRA, in providing the fundamental certification, teaches that the cost of the instruction establishes its vital importance in the student's mind. South Carolina names the NRA in its black letter statute law as a provider of the fundamental certification - the only organization to be so named.

All this ignores "shall not be infringed." Safety is a tyrant's tool because no one can be against safety. All that is needed is understanding of the four precepts of gun carry; LOADED, MUZZLE, TRIGGER, TARGET. Guns are not safe for idiots or tyrants.

All guns are LOADED until they are not. Cover with the MUZZLE only what will be destroyed. Keep your finger off the TRIGGER. Know the TARGET and beyond.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$

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LittleMan wrote:

So I went to a CPL Class today. To make my life a little easier for OCing. I wasn't to impressed with my instructor. We got on the topic of OC during one of our breaks and he basically said we were a bunch of crazies. When he resumed class we were just finishing up our discussion and decided to fill in the whole class about OpenCarry.org (mentioned by name) and bad mouthed us. I spoke up and said that I'm a member. He thinks it is illegal I didn't get a chance to debate it with him. I am planning on writing a letter to him once I get my certificate. I feel the need to point out that he should teach what the law says and not his opinion of what the law says.

I don't think he liked me very much. I made a point to tell him he was wrong on a couple things. He had a video that said while transporting without a CPL your gun has to be in a separate container than the ammo. After the video he restated the same thing. I decided to speak up and inform him thatthe lawdoesn't say that. He told me that it does I just didn't see it and he would find it for me. Of course he didn't.

There were also questions on the test that I would have got wrong if I answered them correctly. I knew that I had to answer based on his biased opinion and not on the law or facts. We went over the test later and low and behold I was right. I am going to point this out to him also and see what he says. He made a point to act as though he was challenging all day so I doubt I will get a positive response.

I'm Also thinking of writing a letter to the NRA. This was not a NRA class but he is a NRA instructor.

Give me your thoughts please.

On a side note I did meet someone who has been OCing since 2004 and is a member of this forum. I forgot to get his screen name though

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THE state of Michigan and NRA both have blind eye to truth . Some CPL instructors inject untruths most give out books [training info]the day of class many give no one on one.Also may skip test or range time [yes handling gun and finding target,trigger squeeze , reacquiring target on double tap] safe discharge and and reloading under [fire praying that it never happens] at range . Very sad if the money is only reason for training.

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I posted this in another thread but it goes well here. Send your instructor this and one of our brochures. He is entitled to his opinion, but should not misinform anyone on the law. I would complain and demand a refund.

CPL INSTRUCTORS AND OPEN CARRY

We often hear about CPL instructors telling their students that either open carry is illegal or it’s legal but you will be charged with brandishing. Both are incorrect. I recommend that CPL instructors touch on open carry using or modifying the outline below.

Open carry is legal in Michigan, period.

Having a CPL does not relieve you of your right to open carry; it allows you the choice to conceal your handgun if you wish

A gun in a holster is not brandishing. AG opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002. Brandishing is defined as “1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish.”[/b]

No local ordinances can ban firearm possession (includes both open and concealed carry with a CPL on or in public property due to the 1990 preemption law 750 123.1102. This was upheld by The Michigan Court of Appeals on April 29, 2003; v No. 242237. Any local ordinance that bans firearms on or in public property is illegal. State and Federal laws may apply.

Though disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

Disturbing the peace deals with any acts in a violent, boisterous, turbulent, quarrelsome, indecent, or disorderly manner, or to use profane, obscene, or vulgar language, or to commit any act, or to do anything to disturb the good order, peace and dignity of the city, its inhabitants or other persons. Disorderly Conduct deals with being intoxicated in a public place and to either endanger directly the safety of another person, or of property, or to act in a manner that causes a public disturbance.

Open carry does not make you a target of crime. There is no creditable evidence that this has every happened to a citizen. Police officers and security guards have been targeted due to the nature of their jobs. There is an abundance of anecdotal evidence that suggests that open carry deters crime. A US Department of justice report found that criminals target those that are or are believed to be unarmed over an armed victim.

Open carry allows for a larger caliber and more rounds. Faster draw. In warm climates and in summer open carry is conducive to a more comfortable carry.

A good retention holster is recommended when open carrying, as well as being aware of your surroundings.

Ultimately the choice to open or conceal carry is the individuals as there are advantages with both methods.

Two AG opinions, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc.

AG OpinionsNo. 7097 January 11, 2002and No. 7097 January 11, 2002. “Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.” Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441.

There is no known case law to substantiate or overturn these opinions

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My NRA certified instructor was a retired police officer and he agreed with me that OC was entirely legal in Michigan but cautioned the class that doing so might cause unwanted interaction the police. We didn't spend a lot of time discussing OC as the class was for CC. Fortunately for me, I guess, my instructor seemd VERY well versed on current Michigan firearm laws as they relate to carrying concealed weapons and presented what I am coming to discover was a VERY thorough class for obtaining your CPL. I would not hesitate to recommend my instructor and one of his classes to anyone interested in getting a CPL in Michigan.

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Thank you all for your comments.

I do want to point out again that this wasn't a NRA class but the instructor was NRA certified. This class was a CPL class approved by state of michigan. I believe Michigan requires them to cover the current laws. I understand why he wouldn't agree with OCing as it can cause problems. You need to understand how to react to the police and the instructor wouldn't be able to fit that into the class.

I'm not going to ask for a refund unfortunatly. I don't have a very flexible schedule to be retaking the class elsewhere. I really don't care about it personally. The other 15 people in the class are the ones that are hurt. I've taken a great deal of time to look at the laws and I'm going to rely on what the law says not one persons opinion. I seem to know them better than the instructor did.

I am currently going over all the material that I recieved and will show him what I feel needs to be corrected. Supply him with proof of what the law says.

I will also send the info Venator posted.

Hopefully I get a response back

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LittleMan wrote:

I understand why he wouldn't agree with OCing as it can cause problems.

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I don't.


LittleMan wrote:

You need to understand how to react to the police and the instructor wouldn't be able to fit that into the class.

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How to react to a police officer is very subjective. The instructor should be teaching objectively, especially on topics he disagrees with. He needs to teach the law, technique, safety, etc... If you don't like the firearms laws, you probably shouldn't be a firearms instructor.

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SQLtables wrote:

LittleMan wrote:

I understand why he wouldn't agree with OCing as it can cause problems.

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I don't.

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Really? I can see it causing a problem in that if people knewthey couldopen carry without a permitthey'd stoptaking his class and he'd be out money. Seems like a "good" reason for him to misinform the uninformed :banghead:

Bronson

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LittleMan wrote:

He had a video that said while transporting without a CPL your gun has to be in a separate container than the ammo. After the video he restated the same thing. I decided to speak up and inform him thatthe lawdoesn't say that.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but this IS the law, is it not? I was told this by both the Center Line and Warren police department, as well as a CPL holder. I was in fact not allowed to apply or transfer my gun ownership without taking a 15 question 'test' and this was on both tests. The first time I got the question wrong because I didn't know the answer they wanted. The test had the Michigan State Police logo on it, so I imagine it's a universal test.

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malignity wrote:

LittleMan wrote:

He had a video that said while transporting without a CPL your gun has to be in a separate container than the ammo. After the video he restated the same thing. I decided to speak up and inform him thatthe lawdoesn't say that.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but this IS the law, is it not? I was told this by both the Center Line and Warren police department, as well as a CPL holder. I was in fact not allowed to apply or transfer my gun ownership without taking a 15 question 'test' and this was on both tests. The first time I got the question wrong because I didn't know the answer they wanted. The test had the Michigan State Police logo on it, so I imagine it's a universal test.

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See (e) below. As long as it's unloaded. You DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE THE AMMO IN A SEPERATE CASE OR LOCATION. You can have an unloaded handgun in a case in the trunk and have a magizine or speed loader in the same case. Same as if you are transporting a long gun for hunting, many cases have a place for the ammo in or on the outside of the case.

750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.


Sec. 231a.

(1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

(b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.

(c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.

(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

(2) As used in this section:

(a) “Antique firearm” means either of the following:

(i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.

(ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

(b) “Lawful purpose” includes the following:

(i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

(ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.

(iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

(iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed on the pistol as is required by section 9 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.429, or for the purpose of having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon.

(v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or sale.

(vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

(vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.


History: Add. 1964, Act 215, Eff. Aug. 28, 1964 ;-- Am. 1973, Act 191, Eff. Mar. 29, 1974 ;-- Am. 1974, Act 55, Imd. Eff. Apr. 1, 1974 ;-- Am. 1978, Act 280, Imd. Eff. July 6, 1978 ;-- Am. 2002, Act 82, Imd. Eff. Mar. 26, 2002

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Thanks for the clarification. Good to know

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LittleMan wrote:

SNIP
I don't think he liked me very much. I made a point to tell him he was wrong on a couple things. He had a video that said while transporting without a CPL your gun has to be in a separate container than the ammo. After the video he restated the same thing. I decided to speak up and inform him thatthe lawdoesn't say that. He told me that it does I just didn't see it and he would find it for me. Of course he didn't.
SNIP

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This video you seen is not entirely incorrect. For example, as a CPL holder and while carrying, we are in violation of CPL laws by having a blood alcohol level (BAL) greater than .02. I agree 100% on what others here have posted that no law in Michigan requires ammo separate from the gun. But, this only applies to those whose BAL is below .02 and, of course, while carrying.

A CPL holder, in Michigan, who chooses to consume alcohol beyond the maximum BAL of .02 is required to keep the gun in a locked case/compartment, unloaded andseparate from the ammo.

I'll try to find the code/section on this and post it at a later time.

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My Instructor was really good he talked a lot about open carry it's advantages and legality ( private property and such ) so not all are speaking with forked tongues .

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Hi, I'm a new member, and an NRA instructor for what is commonly referred to as Ccw or CPL classes. An NRA instructor is NOT supposed to tell you the law, that is the Lawyer's job.You know, the Lawyer that is required by LAW and the NRA teach the law part the class. I would seek better instruction, with references never hurts, and perhaps a refund.

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I had the same thing happen down here.

I called the NRA instructor licensing department, and they had me send a written account of the issue to them so they could take action on it.

You might do the same.