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Thread: Police shooting in Everett

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    http://www.heraldnet.com/article/200...HERALDNETMSNBC

    3 Everett police officers gun downed a man in his own house.

    Sounds like a big mistake. We will find out after the investigation.

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    This is going to be very interesting.

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    from the PI
    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...tml?source=rss

    Investigators plan to search the residence where the shooting happened. They have not determined how many shots were fired nor whether the alleged burglar fired any shots.

    edit:
    I carry a 1911 locked and cocked and 3 magazines totalling 25 rounds. One empty magazine and two full ones equals 9 rounds shot. Is there no standard basic load (IE three magazines) that a cop carries?

    Since the guy died at the scene where was his gun? What type of gun? Wheel or auto? Internal Affairs (or what ever it is called now) "should" have a field day with this one !!

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    Hey, Check out the KOMO story...The guy that was shot was apparently the "bad guy". Now look at all the comments below, think about what some of these people are saying since they've only heard KOMO's side of the story...

    We'll see how long it takes them to edit it. I saw the story this morning, and they haven't yet.

    http://www.komonews.com/news/34144164.html

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    Here is an MSNBC link that gives a bit more info.

    It will be interesting to see what the investigation finds on this.
    Was this guy on drugs? Or suppose to be? Where did he get the gun?
    LOE don't shoot people for fun. They know the paperwork and pain
    that such actions cause. I also know that Everett police officers
    have very good training when it comes to use of force. They are one
    of the better police departments in the state. IMO


    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27622046/

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    I read this this AM in the Everett Herald. It appears, by their account, that neighbors called the cops because someone was breaking windows and kicking in a door. When they arrived they were met by an armed individual that refused to obey their orders.

    I don't know what exactly happened (nor does anyone else here) but I wouldn't be too quick to judge the officer's actions. What might you do if you were one of these officers, the subject refuses to put down a gun, and then he makes a move that you determine (in a split second) to be threatening? It's going to be difficult to find out what happened when all the facts are in one place. Impossible to do with only speculation.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    UPDATE: November 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...yndication=rss

    Nothing new to add other than:
    They recovered a shotgun from next to the body of the man killed by Everett police on Saturday & they still haven't ID'd him.

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    let me guess, the investigation will find they did everything in there power to avoid this tragedy, but the cops were in the right. :X

    whatever happened to shooting once or twice to put the perp down instead of emptying a clip.



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    If the guy did in fact refuse to drop his shotgun and made any motion at all of aiming or pointing it at the officers, then he got what he deserved.

    You shoot til the threat is gone, that may mean going to slide lock and even a reload. Until the gun is out of the guys hand and he is on the ground he is still a threat.

    It isn't like the movies, a few rounds of 9mm or .40 doesn't send a person flying backwards. On top of that, cops have about a 25-30% hit ratio in a shooting so out of 15 rounds you may only get 5 hits.

    I think it is still way too early to start passing judgment on the cops, there is a lot of info that we aren't getting at this point, and will likely never get.

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    911Boss wrote:
    On top of that, cops have about a 25-30% hit ratio in a shooting so out of 15 rounds you may only get 5 hits.
    Now that's just downright sad. Someone send them to CQC training camp. I would expect better eyes closed with an uzi.

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    cops should be charged with murder.

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    mrbiggles wrote:
    cops should be charged with murder.
    And you know the whole story?? That is a pretty bold statement to make without knowing the entire story.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    mrbiggles wrote:
    cops should be charged with murder.
    Why? Ya know, we don't have the whole story on this. But if you want to sound like a yahoo, go right ahead. Jeez, iinocnt until guilty and all that garbage. You must have confused the WA OC forum with the WA bash cops forum. Way to perpetuate us v them.

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    joeroket wrote:
    mrbiggles wrote:
    cops should be charged with murder.
    And you know the whole story?? That is a pretty bold statement to make without knowing the entire story.
    If the tables were turned--do you think the police would show you the same courtesy? I could almost guarantee you that they would have you sitting in jail awaiting a bond hearing--if you got one...now you tell me why these police officers deserve to be treated any differently than they would treat the average citizen?

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    Again DO YOU HAVE THE WHOLE STORY? All we are seeing is the news report, which is probably pretty thin on details right now. And actually if what I read in the NRA's armed citizen is to be believed, few self defense shootings end in an arrest of the person who was defending themselves.

    So go ahead, keep trying to divide cops from citizens. It's working. Mistrust, anger, hatred. Good job!

    OR, do what most responsible citizens do. Wait for the whole story.

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    suntzu wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    mrbiggles wrote:
    cops should be charged with murder.
    And you know the whole story?? That is a pretty bold statement to make without knowing the entire story.
    If the tables were turned--do you think the police would show you the same courtesy? I could almost guarantee you that they would have you sitting in jail awaiting a bond hearing--if you got one...now you tell me why these police officers deserve to be treated any differently than they would treat the average citizen?
    If I got one what? An intruder in my home who was armed?? I can guarantee I would not be in jail awaiting bond if it was reversed.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    mrbiggles wrote:
    cops should be charged with murder.
    Why? Ya know, we don't have the whole story on this. But if you want to sound like a yahoo, go right ahead. Jeez, iinocnt until guilty and all that garbage. You must have confused the WA OC forum with the WA bash cops forum. Way to perpetuate us v them.
    sorry, a man standing in a doorway of his own house doesn't deserve to be killed. i think those facts are enough.

    LEOs are not our masters, if you're standing in your house and they come and give you orders for no reason you think you should have to obey them? You should ignore unlawful orders by LEOs its your duty as an american per out founding fathers.

    For LEOs they defiantly need a ask questions first shoot later approach. does this make thier job more dangerous? maybe. if they didn't want a dangerous job don't become a LEO.

    One innocent man dying is too much, if all it took was for those LEO clowns to step back or take cover and start asking questions, rather than drawing down and giving orders to avoid this innocent person dying. its well worth it.

    Its nice the govt thinks (in a lot of states) we should attempt to run away or hide first, but agents of the govt (LEOs) should shoot to kill first and figure out what happened later. its ok, the sheep will pick up the tab on any lawsuits.

    to protect and serve :?

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    What if the man standing in the doorway of his home was holding a weapon on the cops as they approached him? We don't know all the facts yet. You are running on pure emotion, not facts. Think like a reporter for a moment, instead of a rabid cop hater. Get the facts, then pass judgement.

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    It was found that he was not an intruder after the fact. Is it tragic? Yes it is. That hardly makes what happened a crime and it does not mean that the LEO involved are clowns. All three fired which makes me believe that there was reason to fear for their lives.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    It was found that he was not an intruder after the fact. Is it tragic? Yes it is. That hardly makes what happened a crime and it does not mean that the LEO involved are clowns. All three fired which makes me believe that there was reason to fear for their lives.
    It was contagious--one started shooting and so did the rest--essentially--they panicked. Clowns? We don't really know that--it obviously appears that they were clowns. Time will tell.

    How do we know it was not a crime? They shot a man standing in his own doorway-in his own home no less. The fact he was armed was not an open invitation to open fire--unless he was pointing the gun at them. Self-defense statutes should apply in this if that was the case. They should not be on leave with pay while this is investigated--we would get no such luxury. It should not be the local dept. who investigates this--and it should be as thourough an investigation on them as it would be for the average person.



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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    What if the man standing in the doorway of his home was holding a weapon on the cops as they approached him? We don't know all the facts yet. You are running on pure emotion, not facts. Think like a reporter for a moment, instead of a rabid cop hater. Get the facts, then pass judgement.
    Then they should have identified themselves.

    No, we don't know the facts-and everyone is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

    If he was holding a gun on them--and they identified themselves and he refused to lower the gun--then they really had no choice--but hopefully all of that will come out.

    The law should apply to everyone equally--or it should not apply to anyone.

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    mrbiggles wrote:
    sorry, a man standing in a doorway of his own house doesn't deserve to be killed. i think those facts are enough.
    This was more than a man standing in his doorway. Don't over simplify the situation to try and prove your point. You can't toss half the "Facts" and then claim the ones you keep are "enough".

    This was a man standing in a doorway of his own house, with a shotgun, that was refusing to comply with multiple uniformed officers. He may even have pointed the gun at the officers.

    In the ACTUAL situation, given ALL of the facts, he very well may may deserved to be killed.

    mrbiggles wrote:
    LEOs are not our masters, if you're standing in your house and they come and give you orders for no reason you think you should have to obey them? You should ignore unlawful orders by LEOs its your duty as an american per out founding fathers.

    For LEOs they defiantly need a ask questions first shoot later approach. does this make thier job more dangerous? maybe. if they didn't want a dangerous job don't become a LEO.
    Actually, if you are standing armed in your doorway and multiple police officers are telling you to put the gun down, yes you should. Do you HAVE to? No, I guess not. If you choose not to though don't be too surprised if it doesn't end the way you expect it to.

    The officers DID have a reason, they were responding to a report of a burglary in progress I believe. At the time they did not know who the person was or whose house it was. What they KNEW was they had a person with a gun refusing to disarm so they could sort it all out.

    Just because you don't THINK there is a legitimate reason, that doesn't mean there isn't one. Unless you are some all-knowing God, you probably don't have all the information.

    Cops are generally MORE than happy to ask questions before shooitng, but I don't think it is too much to ask that the person they want to ask questions to puts the gun down first so they can ask questions while being assured of their safety. Generally that makes it safer for the person they are asking questions to as well.

    If this was a single undercover cop or some reason to believe an impersonator that is one thing, but when you have 3 uniformed cops with o-fficial Po-lice cars and everything, that is the time to do as they ask and put your gun down, even if you have done nothing wrong and are in your own house.

    If cops had to deal with rules like you can't shoot until AFTER someone else shoots first, it wouldn't just make it a "dangerous job". Hell it is already a dangerous job, that kind of rule would make it a kamikaze position.

    mrbiggles wrote:
    One innocent man dying is too much, if all it took was for those LEO clowns to step back or take cover and start asking questions, rather than drawing down and giving orders to avoid this innocent person dying. its well worth it.

    Its nice the govt thinks (in a lot of states) we should attempt to run away or hide first, but agents of the govt (LEOs) should shoot to kill first and figure out what happened later. its ok, the sheep will pick up the tab on any lawsuits.

    to protect and serve :?
    And you know he is "innocent" how? Why can't people accept personal responsibility for their actions anymore? I'll flip it around on you- All it would have taken for him to stay alive was to comply. He choose not to, he choose his own outcome. Sounds like a "suicide by cop" scenario to me. Got what he wanted maybe... Pretty good "service" in that case.

    Lets stick to the facts of THIS case. WA is not a "must retreat" state, you have no duty to avoid confrontation and we have pretty strong protections for the right of self-defense. The flip side of that is you DO have an obligation to do as you are told by the police under certain circumstances (such as an armed stand-off).

    While you may have every right to be in your own home, and every right to keep and bear arms, you do NOT have the right to hold officers at bay with a gun because you think they are wrong. You do as you are told and then if they are in fact wrong, you avail yourself of the process to correct that AFTER the situation is resolved.



    suntzu wrote:
    It was contagious--one started shooting and so did the rest--essentially--they panicked. Clowns? We don't really know that--it obviously appears that they were clowns. Time will tell.
    I don't see multiple officers opening fire as "panic". There was a threat that appears to have escalated at some point to possibly warrant lethal force. Once lethal force is warranted there should be no question how many officers can shoot, how many rounds they can shoot, or any other "measure" of what is appropriate.

    Dead is dead, lethal is lethal. If it goes to the point where lethal force is warranted I don't care if they use a bazooka or call in an air strike.

    If you and your brothers were facing down someone with a gun who may be getting ready to kill your mother, are you all going to take a vote on who will shoot to stop him? Maybe you'll each take turns until one of you stops the threat?

    No your not going to do any of that, if it appears the only chance to save your mother is to shoot the bad guy, I am betting you all will shoot at the bad guy.

    You see "Panicked" behavior, I see continuity of training. Three individuals who came to the same conclusion in their assessment of the threat. You see "clowns", I see teamwork. Three individuals who, working together, stopped a threat. I see skilled split second decision making where numerous rounds were fired with no injuries to uninvolved persons.

    You'll probably accuse me of offering biased support for the police and I admit I am biased towards them. On the other hand those who are so quick to call for lynching are just as biased as they look at it from the rose colored glasses of those who are always against cops in general.


    suntzu wrote:
    How do we know it was not a crime? They shot a man standing in his own doorway-in his own home no less. The fact he was armed was not an open invitation to open fire--unless he was pointing the gun at them. Self-defense statutes should apply in this if that was the case. They should not be on leave with pay while this is investigated--we would get no such luxury. It should not be the local dept. who investigates this--and it should be as thourough an investigation on them as it would be for the average person.
    Yes, from our lofty perch looking at information AFTER the fact, in the stark light of day. We now know it was a person in his own home. We have the luxury of making our judgments with lots of time to examine the information at our leisure and without someone waving a gun at us.

    I think it is a little retarded to judge the cops actions and decisions as though they had the same opportunity to assess the situation that we have had. They were responding to a report of a burglary, in the dark, facing an uncooperative armed subject, without the luxury of no time limit.

    Try to understand what they were given to look at and judge them on their decisions based on what they had to work with. Responding to a report of a burglary, they find a person armed with a gun. They are clearly police officers and they order the man to put the gun down so they can talk to him. He doesn't put the gun down after repeated requests to do so. He may or may not be waving the gun about, he may or may not be under the influence of drugs or alcohol. He may or may not at some point end up point the shotgun at one of the officers.

    Until you have ACTUALLY been in such a situation, you really have no business second guessing those who have been.

    Certainly, if after the investigation is complete, it is found that the officers acted inappropriately, broke rules, planted evidence, or whatever, then certainly feel free to call for their badges, jail time, tar and feathering or whatever is appropriate. BUT how about we give them the same assumption of innocence until proof of guilt that we all expect from the system?

    Yes, they SHOULD be on leave with pay while this is sorted out. That is the way it works EVERYWHERE. While they are on "Leave" they will be cooperating with the investigators, seeing a department shrink, dealing with having had to take a person's life, them and their families will be assaulted by the media, they will be ridiculed and scorned by you and the likes of others who have posted similar replies, and a whole host of other things that is going to turn their life upside down. All of this for quite possibly doing their job RIGHT. Wow, who wouldn't want that job??? :rolling eyes:

    This isn't going to be a paid vacation, they weren't high-fiving themselves afterwards and they won't be going to Disneyland. Would "We" get such a "luxury"? I think "We" would. If I shot and killed someone and the initial impression suggested that it was a lawful use of force, I likely wouldn't be arrested. I would still be able to go to work and collect my paycheck while the investigation was done. If the circumstances changed, I might end up being arrested later, being charged, and possibly even going to trial. So it seems to me that yes, "We" DO get the same "luxury".

    It has already been reported that EPD will NOT be doing the investigation. Sno. Co. S.O. will be handling that. I guarentee it will be a thorough one, probably a hell of a lot more so than if you or I capped some guy in an SD situation.

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    suntzu wrote:
    Then they should have identified themselves.

    No, we don't know the facts-and everyone is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

    If he was holding a gun on them--and they identified themselves and he refused to lower the gun--then they really had no choice--but hopefully all of that will come out.

    The law should apply to everyone equally--or it should not apply to anyone.
    I am pretty confident that they CLEARLY identified themselves, probably multiple times. It has already been reported that he refused to disarm. Simply "lowering" the gun does not end the threat.

    I think it takes FAR fewer assumptions to believe they acted appropriately than it does to to believe they didn't...

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    suntzu wrote:
    It should not be the local dept. who investigates this--and it should be as thourough an investigation on them as it would be for the average person.

    Actually, it will not be the Everett PD investigating this. Detectives from several surrounding departments will be investigating, free of any influence from the EPD command staff. It isn't just an investigation by the so-called Internal Affairs but a multi-agency group. These officers are not going to get a free ride if it was determined that they F---ed Up.

    Now how about waiting for some facts before we start building the crosses to crucify these officers?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    The Herald has a story on it with more info: http://heraldnet.com/article/20081110/NEWS01/811109987

    Reproduced here without any format changing for those that can't follow the link:
    EVERETT - A special team of detectives investigating a police shooting that left an Everett man dead early Saturday reports that the man greeted officers at his front door and "leveled" a shotgun in their direction.

    The man, Dustin Willard, 31, was fatally shot by police when he did not drop the weapon, according to Rebecca Hover, Snohomish County Sheriff's Office spokeswoman. Officers were summoned to the home by neighbors who reported hearing breaking glass and other loud noises.

    A blood smear was found the the back door of the house. Whose blood it is or how it got there is not known at this time and is being investigated, Hover said.

    KOMO-TV of Seattle has been reporting that the man may have been shot behind his home, based on statements from a neighbor.

    "Information that a shooting happened in the back yard of the house is inconsistent with information and evidence gathered by detectives," Hover said. "If anyone believes they have additional information about this incident, they are encouraged to contact detectives."

    [line]

    The full text of a statement released by Hover on behalf of the detectives follows:

    Armed man leveled shotgun at officers in Saturday’s officer-involved shooting in North Everett

    EVERETT -- Detectives investigating an officer-involved shooting in this city say the armed man shot by officers Saturday morning opened the front door of the house and leveled a shotgun at the officers who had come to investigate a reported burglary in progress.

    The incident began about 1:44 a.m. when neighbors called to report a man breaking the front window and then breaking or kicking in the front door of a nearby house. Neighbors told 911 dispatchers they then heard loud noises coming from the back of the house and thought the same man might be breaking down the back door of the house.

    Officers arrived after that. Three of the officers approached the house and knocked on the front door. A witness officer not involved in the officer-involved shooting said the front door opened and he saw a man holding a shotgun at a slight upwards angle and then saw the man level the shotgun. Another witness officer said he saw the armed man point the weapon in the direction of one of the officers.

    Officers ordered the man to drop the weapon, but he did not comply. Officers fired at the man. He was pronounced dead at the scene. Detectives recovered a shotgun near his body during the on-scene investigation Saturday.

    Detectives also found a blood smear on the back door of the house. They do not know how or when that blood got there or whose blood it is. They are investigating that.

    Information that a shooting happened in the backyard of the house is inconsistent with information and evidence gathered by detectives. If anyone believes they have additional information about this incident, they are encouraged to contact detectives.

    Detectives are not commenting further on the evidence gathered at the scene because it is in the process of being analyzed. Results from those tests could take weeks, even months to complete.

    The three officers involved in the shooting have not yet been interviewed. They will be interviewed at a later date.
    Here's one from yesterday where they call the man the owner and the roommate of a man they interviewed: http://heraldnet.com/article/20081109/NEWS01/711099871

    Again, reproduced without changing formatting:
    EVERETT -- Bear Whalen may never know exactly what happened at his house early Saturday morning, but he wants to get as close to the truth as he can.

    Three Everett police officers responding to a report of a burglary shot and killed Whalen's roommate at his home in the 2400 block of 23rd Street.

    The slain man owned and lived at the house where he was fatally shot, Whalen said.

    Someone in the neighborhood east of Broadway called police just before 2 a.m. Saturday to report that someone was breaking windows and kicking in the door of a nearby house, Snohomish County sheriff's spokeswoman Rebecca Hover said.

    Three officers arrived and said they were confronted by a man with a gun, standing in the doorway of the home, Hover said.

    Officers said they repeatedly ordered the man to drop his weapon but he refused to comply. The three officers fired multiple shots at the man, 31. He died at the scene, Hover said.

    The man's identity has not been released. His friends and roommate say he is one of the owners of the home and had every right to be there.

    No one else was at the house at the time of the shooting, Hover said.

    The officers involved in the shooting were placed on paid administrative leave, as is standard practice, while a team of detectives pulled from throughout the county investigates.

    Whalen, 28, and his neighbor Gunner Nelsen, 26, were stunned by the death of their friend.

    "It's devastating. He didn't deserve to die," Whalen said.

    Whalen described his friend and roommate as a good man who cared about his community and was a volunteer.

    "He never even got a ticket. He respected the law," Whalen said.

    The men and some of their friends went out to a bar Friday night, Whalen said.

    Whalen said his roommate went home around 1 a.m. Whalen said he spent the night at a friend's place.

    When he returned to his home later on Saturday it didn't look the same, Whalen said.

    Even after Whalen, Nelsen and others cleaned the house, marks of the tragedy remained: There were holes in the windows and splintered wood lying on the floor. The men threw out the blood-stained carpet from the living room, where they say their friend fell after being shot.

    "I just wish my friend was back. I don't know how long it's going to take to get over this," Nelsen said.

    The officers involved in the shooting include a 24-year-old woman who has been with force two and a half years; a 29-year-old man who has been with Everett for one and a half years and a 33-year-old man who has been an officer with the city for two years.

    Jonas Nicotra's house is just across the alley from the shooting scene. He said he was awakened by the gunfire just before 2 a.m. and rushed outside to see what the commotion was about.

    A dog owned by one of the residents at the house where the shooting took place was "just going crazy" after the shots were fired, Nicotra said.

    Steven Mestras tried to walk to the neighborhood convenience store Saturday morning, but was turned back by police tape closing off a few blocks of 23rd Street.

    Mestras, who has lived in the neighborhood for a decade, said he was outside of his house about a block away when a burst of shots broke the night's silence. "I heard rapid fire, then a last one," he said.

    Sandra Rodriguez, 35, moved into a house across the street in February along with her children. She said she was awakened Saturday by shouting and what she thought where firecrackers going off because there were so many explosions.

    Later she learned that what she had heard were gunshots that had ended a young man's life.

    "I can't believe it happened in front of my house," she said. "We are scared and I want to know what happened."
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

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