Got another question for ya!

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I think the OP did well given the scenario. I would personally consider three street-types who are belligerent and following me to be hostile. Not necessarily a deadly threat at that, point, however. Street people are known to carry weapons (usually knives or shanks, not guns as frequently), and three on one isbad odds. With three of them, if they came within 30 or so feet and were closing the distance quickly I might draw.

One thing to consider is when you "back away" you are putting yourself at risk of stumbling. Moving sideways or back at an angle is tactically a better action.

Since the OP was OC, and had pointed to his weapon, I think the next step is to grasp the pistol and release any retention device. Any street person knows this posture, and it is consistent with what a law enforcement officer would do if he/she perceived a threatening or potentially dangerous situation. Given that the OP felt threatened, had stated so to the aggressor, and was in the process of calling the police, it would be a stretch to call this brandishing (but, IANAL). I an others who I associate with have taken this action, and hostiles back off quickly. It reduces your draw and shoot time to a half second or less.

I agree with other posters about pepper spray. I would also think about a tactical light at this point, as it will both disorient and partially blind the aggressor. If they come at you, the light may disorient them enough for you to step to one side.

Shad0wfax, I have always been taught to say that if necessary I will shoot to stop the threat. I will not shoot to kill, but to stop the person whom I perceive to be a threat to my life, and I will continue to shoot until the threat ceases. Defensive pistol courses teach two shots to COM because that has a high probability to stop an attack.

Just my .02

Charles

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Charles Paul Lincoln wrote:

I would also think about a tactical light at this point, as it will both disorient and partially blind the aggressor.  If they come at you, the light may disorient them enough for you to step to one side.

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Newer LED flashlights have a fast strobe mode... Which will disorient the #%(& out of a completely sober person, I'd imagine it'd be that much more effective on a drunk person...

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OP,

What do you think would have happend if you had walked by and just ignored them, didn't engage and kept walking?

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Well, They Didn't give me much choice... I didn't make it even close to being across or past them before they started approaching....

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Ah...OK...the reason I ask is most of the time I ignore the vagrants downtown. They may say something but they are usually just a minor nuisance and I ignore them. I told one particularly annoying bum who was asking for change to "back off, I'm workin' this corner!". We both laughed and he left.I've run intothem doing drugs right out in the open sitting in a patch ofivy but otherthanasking me for change ( yeah, while they are shooting up) they didn't move. Your situation is obviously different and I'm picturing a small alleyway or something with a couple ofaggressivedrunks late at night. We can all play ACQ but without seeing the exact setup I'm thinking if it is me and they comingwithin 15 feet they are getting the Fox spray unless they are coming at me with some type of weapon.

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I think you done good!

Don't turn your back on the aggressor, but still show retreat = good move.

Calling the cops while retreating = good move.


I probably would have drawn as soon as the guy put his hand in his pocket, ready to fire at the first sight of a firearm -- 3 inebriated aggressors, one possibly armed, definitely constitutes a threat of serious bodily harm or death, IMO.

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TechnoWeenie wrote:

Newer LED flashlights have a fast strobe mode... Which will disorient the #%(& out of a completely sober person, I'd imagine it'd be that much more effective on a drunk person...

Click to expand...

Now there's an idea! Induce an epileptic fit in the goblin rather than shooting him!

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Well at least this encounter settles the OC/cc argument.:shock:
If you had only been able to rip your shirt open first all would have been well
and the drunk would have dropped to the ground begging for forgivness.
I'm afraid that the projectile when tossed at me would have been my line,
especialy if his cohort was still also armed. If the ally is dark there
is no way to tell if the molitoff cocktail is legit, or a fake. I won't wait to be doused
with a flamible liquid, which would render my handgun inoprative.

It is nice that they actualy responded to your call though.
+1 for keeping your cool, and a nuetral for the leo's since they didn't organize a search.

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Carrying a gun doesn't mean you don't get your ass kicked.

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The hell it doesn't. I carry to avoid ALL harm because one cannot assume the guy coming after you doesn't mean to kill you just cause he says 'im only going to kick your ass'.

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[align=left]http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020[/align]
RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful.

[/b]The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

{snip}


(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary



http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.040

RCW 9A.16.040

Justifiable homicide or use of deadly force by public officer, peace officer, person aiding.

[align=right][/b][/align]

{snip}

(2) In considering whether to use deadly force under subsection (1)(c) of this section, to arrest or apprehend any person for the commission of any crime, the peace officer must have probable cause to believe that the suspect, if not apprehended, poses a threat of serious physical harm to the officer or a threat of serious physical harm to others. Among the circumstances which may be considered by peace officers as a "threat of serious physical harm" are the following:

{snip}


(b) There is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed any crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm.



http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050




[/b]Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.

*****************************************************************

I guess it depends on what you consider the threat of an "ass-whipping" to be. Sounds like it involves great personal injury and serious physical harm, to me.

I'm not talking about drilling some asshole full of holes because he shoved you, either. You have a moral obligation to try to de-escalate a situation and use only necessary force. But it seems kind of counter-sensical (is that a word?I'm gonna start usingit.) to let a guy start beating on you when you are armed, andgive hima good opportunity to grab your firearm and use it against you.

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I too think the OP did a good job handling the situation, performing an organized retreat as it were. I don't know that I would have handled it the same way, but there are so many variable in a situation like that that second guessing, unless someone does something flagrantly antagonistic, foolhardy or illegal, is next to impossible and typically unfair to the person who was standing there in the dark alley scared for their safety or life.

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deepdiver wrote:

I too think the OP did a good job handling the situation, performing an organized retreat as it were. I don't know that I would have handled it the same way, but there are so many variable in a situation like that that second guessing, unless someone does something flagrantly antagonistic, foolhardy or illegal, is next to impossible and typically unfair to the person who was standing there in the dark alley scared for their safety or life.

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+1

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Here's a couple tips my CCW told us. Keep the police on the phone until the threat is completely gone. Yell "Stop! Drop your weapon!" This not only sounds authoritative, but also makes you the victim. By keeping the police on the phone, they will hear all this and can be used to your advantage later.

You did a good job. Situational awareness, tryto de-escalate the situation, retreat, find cover and tryto get back up (cops). I may not have shown my strong side, but would probably grip my sidearm ready to unholster if need be. Remember, guns do not de-escalate situations (iirc thats the legal side, but practical side? Guns can cause a threat to go away even when holstered)

I bought myself a Surefire flashlight (on sale). I've tried it on myself and man, it is stunning how bright it is. A few quick hits with that light may give you the few seconds needed. Remember, work it with your support hand so your strong hand is free.

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Charles Paul Lincoln wrote:

Shad0wfax, I have always been taught to say that if necessary I will shoot to stop the threat. I will not shoot to kill, but to stop the person whom I perceive to be a threat to my life, and I will continue to shoot until the threat ceases. Defensive pistol courses teach two shots to COM because that has a high probability to stop an attack.

Just my .02

Charles

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You do make an excellent point. If you are defending your life, even if the RCW's allow you to use deadly force, it would be very foolish to appear as if you executed your attacker when the threat to your life is over. Two shots at COM and one in the forehead might look pretty bad in court, especially if forensics can show that the forehead shot was fired after the attacker was prone. Let me be clear that I'm not advocating the execution of the bad-guy.

Center-of-Mass shooting is definitely taught to the military and police for a reason and that same reason applies to defensive shooting classes as well. There's essentially a 10" diameter of lethal area centered at the center of mass. (Or at least high probability of stopping a threat, if not lethal.) The double-tap is a good way to make sure you get multiple rounds into the COM area to stop the threat, just as you pointed out.

All I was saying was that placing your shots accurately enough to guarantee death, without appearing to execute your attacker, may make your life easier in court. A dead bad-guy can't bear witness against you, nor can he file a civil suit against you. If my first shot is dead-center on center of mass and my second shot is dead-center on the bad-guy's heart while he's still standing up and threatening me... Well hey, that's the end of that.

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Nosrac wrote:

Ah...OK...the reason I ask is most of the time I ignore the vagrants downtown. They may say something but they are usually just a minor nuisance and I ignore them. I told one particularly annoying bum who was asking for change to "back off, I'm workin' this corner!". We both laughed and he left.I've run intothem doing drugs right out in the open sitting in a patch ofivy but otherthanasking me for change ( yeah, while they are shooting up) they didn't move. Your situation is obviously different and I'm picturing a small alleyway or something with a couple ofaggressivedrunks late at night. We can all play ACQ but without seeing the exact setup I'm thinking if it is me and they comingwithin 15 feet they are getting the Fox spray unless they are coming at me with some type of weapon.

Click to expand...

Yep! the leos are sure doing their jobs. I see this all of the time in Seattle along withten to twenty drug dealers selling in the open and every one including the leos just walk by like they don't even see them. Sorry off topic but needed to be said.

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(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary

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You missed a key point....

.... in case the force is not more than is necessary...

As I say, deadly force is a last resort.



You'd be blasted all over the news as some cowboy who shot a drunk guy stumbling towards him.... regardless of the 'facts'.. You also have the problem of '3' witnesses to lie and make up anything they can to make themselves as the victims.

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No, I didn't miss it, that's why I included it. I merely choose to emphasize under which circumstances deadly force is authorized, because even pulling a firearm is using deadly force, even if you don't fire it, you're threatening deadly force.

Nobody is encouraging unnecessary use of force, the discussion is under what circumstance deadly force IS authorized.

And I don't care what the news says. What matters is what the LEO who arrive on the scene, the prosecutor, and potentially, a jury say. You are almost never going to get a fair say in the media. Even if they granted you the opportunity to fully explain your side, and understood what you are saying, it would get chopped either by the ideology of an editor, or for space constraints before it ever got in front of a reader.

It would also be foolish to speak to the media in depth about details before you are fully cleared by the legal system.

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I think that feeling your life is in danger is different for a lot of folks. I for one would have felt my life was in danger had they closed the gap. And a ass kicking for some leads to death. (Tuba Man). I would rather explain to the judge than take my chances. I would not have drawn unless they entered my comfort zone or showed a weapon.

I have used the 911 on the phone trick several times when confronted at work. And it works to have the dispatcher hearing what is going on. I have even had a operator heighten the call response when they thought I was in danger

A lot of things come into play, number of people,size, age, weapons, actions. Each time it will be different.

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Citing a vague "feeling" may not be enough to justify yourself to the legal system.

Being able to articulate that the perp had accomplished various stages of escalation may do the trick:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

In this case the perp demonstrated intent (verbal threats), coninued the escalation with talk that was meant to intimidate and/orgauge your response, and began to position himself.