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  1. #1
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    where in Dearborn Heights is a good spot to open carry for the 1st time

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    blk04f150 wrote:
    where in Dearborn Heights is a good spot to open carry for the 1st time
    ANYWHERE since Open Carry IS legal. Try a fast food joint, gas station, party store, Walmart, Meijers etc etc etc

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    blk04f150 wrote:
    where in Dearborn Heights is a good spot to open carry for the 1st time
    I don't know the area, but I think a Walmart or a Meijer would be the easiest place. I've never been questioned (by employees) in either. In fact, if you read the lapeer outing thread, you'll see that it appears that a manager in the Davison meijer rightfully did nothing when another customer complained about us. I think these types of places are better if you're not all that confident yet. A fast food restaurant or a gas station (if you go in) usually involves much more close up interaction with people.

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    How long have you been studying the laws on opencarry?

    How much have you practiced ghostriders suggestions?

    What kind of holster do you plan to use?

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    First,

    Welcome to the forum.



    Now, what warlockmatized said. OC is legal with some restrictions. If you have to ask where a good place would be to do it for the first time, then I might suggest "in your mind". Mental preparation is an important aspect of most things, and OC is certainly no exception. Asking this question is a good indication that you currently lack confidence. There is nothing wrong with that, as we all have to start somewhere. If you haven't read the threads, "MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY INFO", and "WASH, RINSE, REPEAT", then you should do so. Those threads will give you a better understanding, and better prepare you for your venture. They should also help you build a better confidence in OC'ing.

    Once you read those threads, and are confident, then what Ron said applies. You can OC anywhere allowed by law (see MCL 750.234d for the prohibited zones) without a CPL, providing the private property is not posted.

    Like I said, the reason your asking is probably because you aren't completely confident, and want to just test the waters. Knowledge breeds confidence. Educate yourself, and you'll feel better about it. Most of the apprehension comes from the unfamiliarity of not dealing with someone (be it LEO or non-LEO) questioning the chosen carry method. Not to say that it always happens, but if you are not prepared to deal with such eventualities, then what will you do when they happen. I'm confident in my shooting ability because well... I practice, I'm confident in talking to people about guns because I try to learn as much about the topic as I can, I'm confident in talking about OC because I've made it a passion to learn about it. I encourage people who are new to OC to learn about it before jumping in because I want them to have a positive experience with it. That positive experience comes with confidence.

    Most of the times when people have had trouble OC'ing has been born of ignorance (either theirs, or maybe someone else's). Ignorance may not be the best word, but the point is that someone wasn't as prepared as they could have been. Either they are ill prepared to deal with the police (or citizens who question them), or the police are either not knowledgeable (or just don't care) about the law. If you can find some of WARCHILD's experiences with negative LEO encounters, you'll see that he was calm the entire time, and wasn't really worried. He knew his rights, he knew the law, so what the officer was doing didn't phase him. Same with Venator's capital building experience. They were confident because they were properly prepared. Confidence in your knowledge and abilities in dealing with diverse situations will put you more at ease in venturing out.

    Good luck, and stay safe.

  6. #6
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    been studying the laws on opencarry for about 6-7 weeks now my holster is a leather ruger out side of the pants

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    How much have you practiced ghostriders suggestions?

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/17262.html

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Ok, lets say I'm a cop and I see you OC'ing.

    I say hello, are you a LEO?

    I ask do you have a CPL?

    Where are you headed?

    Where are you coming from?


    Please respond as you should and as you have learned by studying for the last 6-7 weeks.

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    dougwg wrote:
    Ok, lets say I'm a cop and I see you OC'ing.

    I say hello, are you a LEO?

    I ask do you have a CPL?

    Where are you headed?

    Where are you coming from?


    Please respond as you should and as you have learned by studying for the last 6-7 weeks.
    This is a great exercise that everyone should be doing.

    When I took the CPL class, I was fortunate enough to sit beside a retired officer. He told the class that we should, "daydream" these things (talking about defensive scenarios), as a better part of our training. Richard Marcinko called it, "war gaming" (which I think is a better term). Another term for it is "visualization". It all means the same. Your practicing, without having to actually live through the experience. Your mentally preparing yourself for something you can eventually expect to live through. The more prepared you are, the less stressful the event will be. The less stressful the event will be, the better you will conduct yourself.

    Going through dougwg's questions and answering them is an excellent idea. You could also create another scenario using another non-LEO, instead of an LEO.


    Average ordinary guy: "Are you a cop?"

    Average ordinary guy: "Why are you carrying a gun? (in a clearly offensive tone meant to intimidate or ridicule)

    Average ordinary guy: "Don't you need a license to do that?"

    Average ordinary guy: "Why do you feel the need to walk around in fear?"

    The list can go on and on. Use your imagination, or just cull some of the comments from other people's experiences.

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    dougwg wrote:
    Ok, lets say I'm a cop and I see you OC'ing.

    I say hello, are you a LEO?

    I ask do you have a CPL?

    Where are you headed?

    Where are you coming from?


    Please respond as you should and as you have learned by studying for the last 6-7 weeks.
    I don't really understand why this guy is being interrogated...

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Because another one of our members thought he knew what he was doing and ended up getting charged with a felony! :?

    This member is now involved in a court battle and I just wanted to know how blk04f150 might answer being new and all.

    If this other member knew as much as he thinks he did, he wouldn't be in the situation he's in right now.

    The last thing we need is new guys misunderstanding what thel aw is and not heeding our suggestions as far as knowing the law, our rights AND how to assert those rights.

    Maybe others can learn from this....

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    I tend to have a way of asking people questions that makes them think. I do this without telling them what to do but rather making them tell themselves what to do.



    how would you have answered SQL? Please pm me, as I don't want to muddy the waters any more in this thread.

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    Hold on... If said member is being charged with a felony he either:

    A) Broke the law in ignorance

    or

    B) Did not break the law and the charges will be dropped shortly.

    How well thought-out your response to an LEO or non-LEO is irrelevant to the facts of the situation. If I am missing something please fill me in (or PM).

    -Rob

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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    Hold on... If said member is being charged with a felony he either:

    A) Broke the law in ignorance

    or

    B) Did not break the law and the charges will be dropped shortly.

    How well thought-out your response to an LEO or non-LEO is irrelevant to the facts of the situation. If I am missing something please fill me in (or PM).

    -Rob
    I'm thinking very likely B.

    ETA: I suspect that response to LEO could have a big part in how the situation is handled, especially if you are not breaking the law...

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    I know for a fact it can have a big impact in how things progress, but if you are carrying legally and mouth off to a cop there is nothing that they can do (legally) when all is said and done. I recommend being polite and professional, but also assertive. I know I am not breaking the law, and will not be told that I am. He can arrest me and get me a nice cash settlement, but that's his problem. I have the grit to stick it out.

    -Rob

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    blk04f150 wrote:
    where in Dearborn Heights is a good spot to open carry for the 1st time
    Your first OC experience should be at the Michigan Open Carry Thread and most importantly, a couple of our OC events.

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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    I know for a fact it can have a big impact in how things progress, but if you are carrying legally and mouth off to a cop there is nothing that they can do (legally) when all is said and done. I recommend being polite and professional, but also assertive. I know I am not breaking the law, and will not be told that I am. He can arrest me and get me a nice cash settlement, but that's his problem. I have the grit to stick it out.

    -Rob
    Bingo.

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    SQLtables wrote:
    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    I know for a fact it can have a big impact in how things progress, but if you are carrying legally and mouth off to a cop there is nothing that they can do (legally) when all is said and done. I recommend being polite and professional, but also assertive. I know I am not breaking the law, and will not be told that I am. He can arrest me and get me a nice cash settlement, but that's his problem. I have the grit to stick it out.

    -Rob
    Bingo.
    It's not always that simple. If one keeps one's mouth shut, then it might be "Bingo", but that depends upon many factors.

    There are way too many laws to say that, "your not breaking the law", and there is way too much "gray area" in those laws to say that, "you can mouth off to a cop and there is nothing he can do about it". "Mouthing off" to cops is often how they gather more information with which to arrest. Rest assured, while they don't care for the attitude, they most certainly like to keep you talking.

    People should watch this video:
    http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2008m8d4-Loose-lips-can-get-you-arrested-or-why-you-shouldnt-talk-to-the-police?cid=Examiner

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02514885833865

    There are also other videos on the following website that shouldn't be ignored.

    http://www.flexyourrights.org/

    blk04f150 is free to do what he pleases. He asked a question which indicated that he lacked confidence in OC'ing. I was merely trying to help. He can chose to disregard my advice if he so chooses. I certainly wouldn't be offended if he did so, and I certainly hope he doesn't take offense. We're suppose to support each other, not beat each other up.

    dougwg's suggestion to quiz oneself in preperation is an excellent suggestion as it aids in mental preperation.

    One of the reasons danbus got a settlement is because he knew how to properly deal with a situation. One of the reasons he got community service, is because he pushed the envelope.

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    I guess I should have been more clear about "mouthing off". An example of this is when I was asked for ID and my pistol registration (cop's words, not mine) while OCing and I told the officer I was not required to provide them. That is what I meant. Not, "I don't have to show you anything!", or something to that effect. You are right, every word you say in front of a cop is another chance for them to hang you, which is why I state the law once and leave it at that. After that it is "am I free to go". In response to Doug's questions, mine would be as follows:

    1) No.

    2) Yes.

    3) and 4) My business is my own.

    I don't know if that is the "right" answer, but that is what I would/have say/said.

    Now as for the response to 3) and 4), I live in a small town and the police aren't the anonymous faces of the law. We know them, their families, etc. They usually aren't going to go out of their way to give you a hard time and I try to make their job as easy as possible. In metro-Detroit it is a different story, since you and the cop are probably pretty sure you will never see each other again. If stopped in metro-Detroit I would probably give a more direct answer so as not to get on the cop's bad side.

    -Rob

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    i believe the correct answers for 3) and 4) are am i being detained?, am i being arrested?, am i free to go?

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    THway wrote:
    i believe the correct answers for 3) and 4) are am i being detained?, am i being arrested?, am i free to go?

    Right from the horses mouth here people!

    THway has personal, first hand experience of how the police can jam you up by what you say!

    And the lesson learned is ****.

    If they ask what your favorite caliber is or start talking about the weather, I think it's safe to say it's a casual and possible friendly stop.

    But if they start asking, where are you going, why are you carrying a gun, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

    Basically Who, What, Where, Why andWhen. Any question even remotely close to one of the "W"s is investigatory in nature and should not be answered.

    It's time to ****

    It's easy to learn the law but much harder to learn how to assert your rights and to know whenthe right time to do so.


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    THway wrote:
    i believe the correct answers for 3) and 4) are am i being detained?, am i being arrested?, am i free to go?
    Unless you are a LEO, and unless your using a CPL, then they are also the answers to 1) and 2).

    That isn't to say that such responses won't be taken as "attitude" by the officer. Each individual has to determine how to best respond in various situations.

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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    I guess I should have been more clear about "mouthing off". An example of this is when I was asked for ID and my pistol registration (cop's words, not mine) while OCing and I told the officer I was not required to provide them. That is what I meant. Not, "I don't have to show you anything!", or something to that effect. You are right, every word you say in front of a cop is another chance for them to hang you, which is why I state the law once and leave it at that. After that it is "am I free to go". In response to Doug's questions, mine would be as follows:

    1) No.

    2) Yes.

    3) and 4) My business is my own.

    I don't know if that is the "right" answer, but that is what I would/have say/said.

    Now as for the response to 3) and 4), I live in a small town and the police aren't the anonymous faces of the law. We know them, their families, etc. They usually aren't going to go out of their way to give you a hard time and I try to make their job as easy as possible. In metro-Detroit it is a different story, since you and the cop are probably pretty sure you will never see each other again. If stopped in metro-Detroit I would probably give a more direct answer so as not to get on the cop's bad side.

    -Rob
    Chances are that the officer you encountered knew you weren't required to provide them. Otherwise you'd probably have been arrested or given a summons. It's possible that you'll find an ignorant one, but more possible is that it's a tool of intimidation/interrogation. If someone want's to start talking about their knowledge of the law, that means the officer doesn't have to get them talking.

    Say whatever you choose to an officer, but I suspect that most people in general (and officers included) would take, "none of your business", as an "attitude". I'm sure it's done in a professional manner, but like I said, "there are many variables involved". Your viewpoint is from what you experience in your small town. "WASH, RINSE, REPEAT" is just a guideline for people. It's simple so that it's easier to work with.

    Personally, I can't see why anyone who has watched the previously posted videos would want to say anything other than "WASH, RINSE, REPEAT".

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    ghostrider wrote:
    That isn't to say that such responses won't be taken as "attitude" by the officer. Each individual has to determine how to best respond in various situations.
    Much of the"attitude" perceived by someone you're talking to has to do not with what you are saying, but how you're saying it in terms of verbal and non-verbal manner.

    My approach with LEOs is to try to keep a poker face, with a polite smile perhaps, as much as possible (don't let annoyance, irritation, or anger show through), keepmy voice low and calm,end each statement with "sir", and ignore the temptation to "debate" with their objections or remarks to any legal non-compliance I am displayingwith their requests.

    For example, a couple of times I've politely refuseda LEO's request tocome intomy house. Once, aLEO responded to my refusal by implying that he had to come into the house becauseit was his job to "make a welfare check" based on the alleged complaint he received. Although I felt annoyed by that ploy and wanted to discuss his understanding of his police powers, I just kept silent with a poker face and he moved on to finishing the encounter, outside my door. I'm sure if I had let my voice and face betray my irritation, the officer would have perceived me as having more "attitude" and he might not have kept his visit so short.

    Ghostrider's right, there are LEO's who will take your legal non-compliance with their questioning and requests as "attitude." My $0.02 is just to say that you have a good chance at reducing that perception by managing your verbal and non-verbal cues.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    blk04f150 wrote:
    where in Dearborn Heights is a good spot to open carry for the 1st time
    Your first OC experience should be at the Michigan Open Carry Thread and most importantly, a couple of our OC events.
    Excellent suggestion. I couldn't agree more.

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