open carry

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THway wrote:

i believe the correct answers for 3) and 4) are am i being detained?, am i being arrested?, am i free to go?

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Right from the horses mouth here people!

THway has personal, first hand experience of how the police can jam you up by what you say!

And the lesson learned is STFU.

If they ask what your favorite caliber is or start talking about the weather, I think it's safe to say it's a casual and possible friendly stop.

But if they start asking, where are you going, why are you carrying a gun, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

Basically Who, What, Where, Why andWhen. Any question even remotely close to one of the "W"s is investigatory in nature and should not be answered.

It's time to STFU

It's easy to learn the law but much harder to learn how to assert your rights and to know whenthe right time to do so.

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THway wrote:

i believe the correct answers for 3) and 4) are am i being detained?, am i being arrested?, am i free to go?

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Unless you are a LEO, and unless your using a CPL, then they are also the answers to 1) and 2).

That isn't to say that such responses won't be taken as "attitude" by the officer. Each individual has to determine how to best respond in various situations.

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Rob Washeleski wrote:

I guess I should have been more clear about "mouthing off". An example of this is when I was asked for ID and my pistol registration (cop's words, not mine) while OCing and I told the officer I was not required to provide them. That is what I meant. Not, "I don't have to show you anything!", or something to that effect. You are right, every word you say in front of a cop is another chance for them to hang you, which is why I state the law once and leave it at that. After that it is "am I free to go". In response to Doug's questions, mine would be as follows:

1) No.

2) Yes.

3) and 4) My business is my own.

I don't know if that is the "right" answer, but that is what I would/have say/said.

Now as for the response to 3) and 4), I live in a small town and the police aren't the anonymous faces of the law. We know them, their families, etc. They usually aren't going to go out of their way to give you a hard time and I try to make their job as easy as possible. In metro-Detroit it is a different story, since you and the cop are probably pretty sure you will never see each other again. If stopped in metro-Detroit I would probably give a more direct answer so as not to get on the cop's bad side.

-Rob

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Chances are that the officer you encountered knew you weren't required to provide them. Otherwise you'd probably have been arrested or given a summons. It's possible that you'll find an ignorant one, but more possible is that it's a tool of intimidation/interrogation. If someone want's to start talking about their knowledge of the law, that means the officer doesn't have to get them talking.

Say whatever you choose to an officer, but I suspect that most people in general (and officers included) would take, "none of your business", as an "attitude". I'm sure it's done in a professional manner, but like I said, "there are many variables involved". Your viewpoint is from what you experience in your small town. "WASH, RINSE, REPEAT" is just a guideline for people. It's simple so that it's easier to work with.

Personally, I can't see why anyone who has watched the previously posted videos would want to say anything other than "WASH, RINSE, REPEAT".

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ghostrider wrote:

That isn't to say that such responses won't be taken as "attitude" by the officer. Each individual has to determine how to best respond in various situations.

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Much of the"attitude" perceived by someone you're talking to has to do not with what you are saying, but how you're saying it in terms of verbal and non-verbal manner.

My approach with LEOs is to try to keep a poker face, with a polite smile perhaps, as much as possible (don't let annoyance, irritation, or anger show through), keepmy voice low and calm,end each statement with "sir", and ignore the temptation to "debate" with their objections or remarks to any legal non-compliance I am displayingwith their requests.

For example, a couple of times I've politely refuseda LEO's request tocome intomy house. Once, aLEO responded to my refusal by implying that he had to come into the house becauseit was his job to "make a welfare check" based on the alleged complaint he received. Although I felt annoyed by that ploy and wanted to discuss his understanding of his police powers, I just kept silent with a poker face and he moved on to finishing the encounter, outside my door. I'm sure if I had let my voice and face betray my irritation, the officer would have perceived me as having more "attitude" and he might not have kept his visit so short.

Ghostrider's right, there are LEO's who will take your legal non-compliance with their questioning and requests as "attitude." My $0.02 is just to say that you have a good chance at reducing that perception by managing your verbal and non-verbal cues.

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SpringerXDacp wrote:

blk04f150 wrote:

where in Dearborn Heights is a good spot to open carry for the 1st time

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Your first OC experience should be at the Michigan Open Carry Thread and most importantly, a couple of our OC events.

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Excellent suggestion. I couldn't agree more.

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ghostrider wrote:

SQLtables wrote:

Rob Washeleski wrote:

I know for a fact it can have a big impact in how things progress, but if you are carrying legally and mouth off to a cop there is nothing that they can do (legally) when all is said and done. I recommend being polite and professional, but also assertive. I know I am not breaking the law, and will not be told that I am. He can arrest me and get me a nice cash settlement, but that's his problem. I have the grit to stick it out.

-Rob

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Bingo.

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It's not always that simple. If one keeps one's mouth shut, then it might be "Bingo", but that depends upon many factors.

There are way too many laws to say that, "your not breaking the law", and there is way too much "gray area" in those laws to say that, "you can mouth off to a cop and there is nothing he can do about it". "Mouthing off" to cops is often how they gather more information with which to arrest. Rest assured, while they don't care for the attitude, they most certainly like to keep you talking.

People should watch this video:
http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2008m8d4-Loose-lips-can-get-you-arrested-or-why-you-shouldnt-talk-to-the-police?cid=Examiner

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865

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Good video. Is the examiner link to the same video? It doesn't work anymore.

Anybody watch the (ex) LEO's response? He pretty much sums up why the lawyer was right....

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SQLtables wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

SQLtables wrote:

Rob Washeleski wrote:

I know for a fact it can have a big impact in how things progress, but if you are carrying legally and mouth off to a cop there is nothing that they can do (legally) when all is said and done. I recommend being polite and professional, but also assertive. I know I am not breaking the law, and will not be told that I am. He can arrest me and get me a nice cash settlement, but that's his problem. I have the grit to stick it out.

-Rob

Click to expand...

Bingo.

Click to expand...

It's not always that simple. If one keeps one's mouth shut, then it might be "Bingo", but that depends upon many factors.

There are way too many laws to say that, "your not breaking the law", and there is way too much "gray area" in those laws to say that, "you can mouth off to a cop and there is nothing he can do about it". "Mouthing off" to cops is often how they gather more information with which to arrest. Rest assured, while they don't care for the attitude, they most certainly like to keep you talking.

People should watch this video:
http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2008m8d4-Loose-lips-can-get-you-arrested-or-why-you-shouldnt-talk-to-the-police?cid=Examiner

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865

Click to expand...

Good video. Is the examiner link to the same video? It doesn't work anymore.

Anybody watch the (ex) LEO's response? He pretty much sums up why the lawyer was right....

Click to expand...

I'll try again, but yes, it's the same, just not broken down into parts like the youtube vids.

If you have a problem, you could always re read the "MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY INFO THREAD" and find it in there. That's where I got it from.

People should also check out flexyourrights.com




I double checked that one and it worked. Funny thing is, when I hit preview it worked, but when I posted it, it no longer worked. I'll try again.

ETAA:

Sorry, I keep trying to post the link but for some reason it won't work. I click "preview", and check the link and it works. Then I post, and it no longer works. Anyway, it's in the "MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY INFO" thread.

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ghostrider wrote:

SQLtables wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

SQLtables wrote:

Rob Washeleski wrote:

I know for a fact it can have a big impact in how things progress, but if you are carrying legally and mouth off to a cop there is nothing that they can do (legally) when all is said and done. I recommend being polite and professional, but also assertive. I know I am not breaking the law, and will not be told that I am. He can arrest me and get me a nice cash settlement, but that's his problem. I have the grit to stick it out.

-Rob

Click to expand...

Bingo.

Click to expand...

It's not always that simple. If one keeps one's mouth shut, then it might be "Bingo", but that depends upon many factors.

There are way too many laws to say that, "your not breaking the law", and there is way too much "gray area" in those laws to say that, "you can mouth off to a cop and there is nothing he can do about it". "Mouthing off" to cops is often how they gather more information with which to arrest. Rest assured, while they don't care for the attitude, they most certainly like to keep you talking.

People should watch this video:
http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2008m8d4-Loose-lips-can-get-you-arrested-or-why-you-shouldnt-talk-to-the-police?cid=Examiner

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865

Click to expand...

Good video. Is the examiner link to the same video? It doesn't work anymore.

Anybody watch the (ex) LEO's response? He pretty much sums up why the lawyer was right....

Click to expand...

I'll try again, but yes, it's the same, just not broken down into parts like the youtube vids.

If you have a problem, you could always re read the "MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY INFO THREAD" and find it in there. That's where I got it from.

People should also check out flexyourrights.com

http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2008m8d4-Loose-lips-can-get-you-arrested-or-why-you-shouldnt-talk-to-the-police?cid=Examiner


I double checked that one and it worked.

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Still didn't work for me, but it might be cached.. I saw the whole thing, just in two parts. It's long, but a good watch.

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Posted above:

Sorry, I keep trying to post the link but for some reason it won't work. I click "preview", and check the link and it works. Then I post, and it no longer works. Anyway, it's in the "MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY INFO" thread.

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ghostrider wrote:

Posted above:

Sorry, I keep trying to post the link but for some reason it won't work. I click "preview", and check the link and it works. Then I post, and it no longer works. Anyway, it's in the "MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY INFO" thread.

Click to expand...

It's not a big deal to me, like I said, I just watched the whole thing in two parts.

I feel like this new guy was given a hard time by asking a simple question. Of course he has to be prepared for an encounter of any sort, but when I was new, if a thread of mine got blown up like this, it probably would have scared me back to CCing all the time.

OP, if you're still around, read as much as you can, go through, at least in your head, what you would say if a police officer stops you, and start out with baby steps. OC around your yard, around the block, pumping gas, the grocery store, etc... Chances are, you won't even be questioned, but you might, so just be mentally prepared.

Also, I second (or third) the idea to come to an outing for your first experience. Very relaxed, friendly, and you won't be alone, which is a big confidence booster.

ETA: All this, and I'm the one with the history of being mean to the new guy...

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SQLtables wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

Posted above:

Sorry, I keep trying to post the link but for some reason it won't work. I click "preview", and check the link and it works. Then I post, and it no longer works. Anyway, it's in the "MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY INFO" thread.

Click to expand...

It's not a big deal to me, like I said, I just watched the whole thing in two parts.

I feel like this new guy was given a hard time by asking a simple question. Of course he has to be prepared for an encounter of any sort, but when I was new, if a thread of mine got blown up like this, it probably would have scared me back to CCing all the time.

OP, if you're still around, read as much as you can, go through, at least in your head, what you would say if a police officer stops you, and start out with baby steps. OC around your yard, around the block, pumping gas, the grocery store, etc... Chances are, you won't even be questioned, but you might, so just be mentally prepared.

Also, I second (or third) the idea to come to an outing for your first experience. Very relaxed, friendly, and you won't be alone, which is a big confidence booster.

ETA: All this, and I'm the one with the history of being mean to the new guy...

Click to expand...

Not really sure what your talking about the thread getting "blown up". He asked where a good place to start OC'ing would be, and he was answered. The question he raised demonstrated a lack of confidence therefore, talk about how to be better mentally prepared is on topic. The suggestions dougwg and I have made are designed to build that confidence. If something like that scares someone back to CC'ing all the time, then maybe that's an indication that they aren't quite ready to OC anyway. I'd rather they not OC if it meant avoiding legal entanglements that a lack of preparation could cause. If he's confident and know's what he's doing, then it shouldn't be a problem. OTOH, if he already has that confidence (doubtful since he asked), then it's all moot.

I would hope, that he take the comments on this thread and dissimulate the information himself to determine what applies to himself, and disregard the rest.

OTOH, looking back I can see how things might have gotten a little off track right about the time someone took exception to a respondents recommendations, but then that happens on message boards, and discussion forums. Even then it wasn that much of a drift, if you could call it that.

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Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

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ghostrider wrote:

SQLtables wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

Posted above:

Sorry, I keep trying to post the link but for some reason it won't work. I click "preview", and check the link and it works. Then I post, and it no longer works. Anyway, it's in the "MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY INFO" thread.

Click to expand...

It's not a big deal to me, like I said, I just watched the whole thing in two parts.

I feel like this new guy was given a hard time by asking a simple question. Of course he has to be prepared for an encounter of any sort, but when I was new, if a thread of mine got blown up like this, it probably would have scared me back to CCing all the time.

OP, if you're still around, read as much as you can, go through, at least in your head, what you would say if a police officer stops you, and start out with baby steps. OC around your yard, around the block, pumping gas, the grocery store, etc... Chances are, you won't even be questioned, but you might, so just be mentally prepared.

Also, I second (or third) the idea to come to an outing for your first experience. Very relaxed, friendly, and you won't be alone, which is a big confidence booster.

ETA: All this, and I'm the one with the history of being mean to the new guy...

Click to expand...

Not really sure what your talking about the thread getting "blown up". He asked where a good place to start OC'ing would be, and he was answered. The question he raised demonstrated a lack of confidence therefore, talk about how to be better mentally prepared is on topic. The suggestions dougwg and I have made are designed to build that confidence. If something like that scares someone back to CC'ing all the time, then maybe that's an indication that they aren't quite ready to OC anyway. I'd rather they not OC if it meant avoiding legal entanglements that a lack of preparation could cause. If he's confident and know's what he's doing, then it shouldn't be a problem. OTOH, if he already has that confidence (doubtful since he asked), then it's all moot.

I would hope, that he take the comments on this thread and dissimulate the information himself to determine what applies to himself, and disregard the rest.

OTOH, looking back I can see how things might have gotten a little off track right about the time someone took exception to a respondents recommendations, but then that happens on message boards, and discussion forums. Even then it wasn that much of a drift, if you could call it that.

Click to expand...

I completely agree with being prepared, and the OP needs to know that we want him to be prepared. I guess I don't really know what I mean. This just all seemed a little intimidating to me (if I were new). Maybe it's just because I've met Doug

I see nothing wrong with asking questions, and asking him questions.. I don't know, basically, I'm going to shut up on this issue.

BTW, I didn't take exception to the recommendations, they just caught me off guard

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So far the only place that I have Oc'd in the Heights, is in My neighborhood, alot of My nieghbors picked up on it when I started doing it, now its not unusual to see people in My neighborhood, Oc"ing, while doing yard work, walking the dog etc. I made some copies of the MOC flier , that was given to Me at the Belle Ile picnic, and gave it to My neighbors, for info, so far, the Heights police have driven by by slow and checked us out, but never stopped and questioned what We were doing.

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SQLtables wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

SQLtables wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

Posted above:

Sorry, I keep trying to post the link but for some reason it won't work. I click "preview", and check the link and it works. Then I post, and it no longer works. Anyway, it's in the "MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY INFO" thread.

Click to expand...

It's not a big deal to me, like I said, I just watched the whole thing in two parts.

I feel like this new guy was given a hard time by asking a simple question. Of course he has to be prepared for an encounter of any sort, but when I was new, if a thread of mine got blown up like this, it probably would have scared me back to CCing all the time.

OP, if you're still around, read as much as you can, go through, at least in your head, what you would say if a police officer stops you, and start out with baby steps. OC around your yard, around the block, pumping gas, the grocery store, etc... Chances are, you won't even be questioned, but you might, so just be mentally prepared.

Also, I second (or third) the idea to come to an outing for your first experience. Very relaxed, friendly, and you won't be alone, which is a big confidence booster.

ETA: All this, and I'm the one with the history of being mean to the new guy...

Click to expand...

Not really sure what your talking about the thread getting "blown up". He asked where a good place to start OC'ing would be, and he was answered. The question he raised demonstrated a lack of confidence therefore, talk about how to be better mentally prepared is on topic. The suggestions dougwg and I have made are designed to build that confidence. If something like that scares someone back to CC'ing all the time, then maybe that's an indication that they aren't quite ready to OC anyway. I'd rather they not OC if it meant avoiding legal entanglements that a lack of preparation could cause. If he's confident and know's what he's doing, then it shouldn't be a problem. OTOH, if he already has that confidence (doubtful since he asked), then it's all moot.

I would hope, that he take the comments on this thread and dissimulate the information himself to determine what applies to himself, and disregard the rest.

OTOH, looking back I can see how things might have gotten a little off track right about the time someone took exception to a respondents recommendations, but then that happens on message boards, and discussion forums. Even then it wasn that much of a drift, if you could call it that.

Click to expand...

I completely agree with being prepared, and the OP needs to know that we want him to be prepared. I guess I don't really know what I mean. This just all seemed a little intimidating to me (if I were new). Maybe it's just because I've met Doug

I see nothing wrong with asking questions, and asking him questions.. I don't know, basically, I'm going to shut up on this issue.

BTW, I didn't take exception to the recommendations, they just caught me off guard

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We're all working toward the same end. And, Doug is good at catching people off guard.

I think the important thing is to give people the benefit of the doubt, and ask for clarification before piling on. Seemed like that's pretty much what you did. Eventually it all comes out in the wash.

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pmcqueen37 wrote:

So far the only place that I have Oc'd in the Heights, is in My neighborhood, alot of My nieghbors picked up on it when I started doing it, now its not unusual to see people in My neighborhood, Oc"ing, while doing yard work, walking the dog etc. I made some copies of the MOC flier , that was given to Me at the Belle Ile picnic, and gave it to My neighbors, for info, so far, the Heights police have driven by by slow and checked us out, but never stopped and questioned what We were doing.

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Outstanding work!

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pmcqueen37 wrote:

So far the only place that I have Oc'd in the Heights, is in My neighborhood, alot of My nieghbors picked up on it when I started doing it, now its not unusual to see people in My neighborhood, Oc"ing, while doing yard work, walking the dog etc. I made some copies of the MOC flier , that was given to Me at the Belle Ile picnic, and gave it to My neighbors, for info, so far, the Heights police have driven by by slow and checked us out, but never stopped and questioned what We were doing.

Click to expand...

+1
Awesome!

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SQLtables wrote:

I completely agree with being prepared, and the OP needs to know that we want him to be prepared. I guess I don't really know what I mean. This just all seemed a little intimidating to me (if I were new). Maybe it's just because I've met Doug

I see nothing wrong with asking questions, and asking him questions.. I don't know, basically, I'm going to shut up on this issue.

BTW, I didn't take exception to the recommendations, they just caught me off guard

Click to expand...

You better beprepared cuz at the next picnic I'm gunnacatch you off guard and give you a little benefit of the doubt and I'll be piling on some clarification just for good measure.



Untwist the panties people!

P.S. Opening day is tomorrow, good luck to all.

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dougwg wrote:

SQLtables wrote:

I completely agree with being prepared, and the OP needs to know that we want him to be prepared. I guess I don't really know what I mean. This just all seemed a little intimidating to me (if I were new). Maybe it's just because I've met Doug

I see nothing wrong with asking questions, and asking him questions.. I don't know, basically, I'm going to shut up on this issue.

BTW, I didn't take exception to the recommendations, they just caught me off guard

Click to expand...

You better beprepared cuz at the next picnic I'm gunnacatch you off guard and give you a little benefit of the doubt and I'll be piling on some clarification just for good measure.



Untwist the panties people!

P.S. Opening day is tomorrow, good luck to all.

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HAHA no twisted panties here. I really do appreciate all the help you offer, it does a lot of good.

Good luck all!