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Thread: Leo's aren't all bad

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Checked out this supposed LEO site and found these stats about captial punishment.

    forums.officer.com

    Their poll showed +27% favored death by the method of murder, with survivors having the option of pulling the switch.

    -24% said public hanging.

    public firing squad came in distant third at -13%

    Don't know squat about the site. Just thought this was interesting.

    riverrat


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    Regular Member MetalChris's Avatar
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    It's funny that you cite O.com in the context of good LEO's. In my experience about 95% of the morons over there are JBT pieces of sh!t.

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    And the thread goes down hill from there...
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    You cite a source showing police want to kill people, as evidence of "good LEOs"?

    Sorry, I don't follow.

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    The problem with capital punishment is that there's no restitution possible if you mistakenly execute an innocent man.

    How often does the wrong person get convicted? You'd be surprised. Try Googling 'Ken Jenne conviction scandal'.

    And then there's the notion that the state should not have the power to kill citizens.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    KBCraig wrote:
    You cite a source showing police want to kill people, as evidence of "good LEOs"?

    Sorry, I don't follow.
    Nor do I. Please explain.

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Mea culpa.

    Was re-reading a Robert Heinlein novel last night. He spoke of a culture that "balanced" offenders. I.e., someone who caused a car accident with injurywas staked down in the road and his leg was run over, the waiting ambulance delayed treatmentas long as the original victim had to wait, then amputated his leg and took him to the hospital.

    The premise was that it was a very safe and polite society and things like the above did not happen very often.

    I guess I was surprised to see the same "eye for an eye" mentality in their poll.

    rat
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

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    FreedomJoy,
    Check out Dallas County's Innocence project. Look at the Olympic park bomber fiasco or the anthrax "investigation", both cases where the FBI was just sooooo sure they had the right guy until they realized they didn't. I also have to question the deterrent factor of capital punishment.


    I guess I was surprised to see the same "eye for an eye" mentality in their poll.


    It never is really an eye for an eye. It is your eye for someone else's eye. THEIR eyes never seem to get involved when they do something wrong.

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    riverrat10k wrote:
    Mea culpa.

    Was re-reading a Robert Heinlein novel last night. He spoke of a culture that "balanced" offenders. I.e., someone who caused a car accident with injurywas staked down in the road and his leg was run over, the waiting ambulance delayed treatmentas long as the original victim had to wait, then amputated his leg and took him to the hospital.

    The premise was that it was a very safe and polite society and things like the above did not happen very often.

    I guess I was surprised to see the same "eye for an eye" mentality in their poll.

    rat
    Which Heinlein was that, please?

  10. #10
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    "Number of the Beast", 1980

    The specific part was mostly background data, not really a plotline. The same "earth analog" hadreference bookskept in locked vaults concerning "The Year They Hung the Lawyers" lol
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when you may have to back up your acts with your life."

    --Robert A. Heinlein

    Hey NSA! *&$# you. Record this--- MOLON LABE!

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    Thank you.

    HO Ho ho. The contemporary application of n-dimensional math is not well accepted here. See...http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/comprom.htm

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    codename_47 wrote:
    FreedomJoy,
    Check out Dallas County's Innocence project. Look at the Olympic park bomber fiasco or the anthrax "investigation", both cases where the FBI was just sooooo sure they had the right guy until they realized they didn't. I also have to question the deterrent factor of capital punishment.


    I guess I was surprised to see the same "eye for an eye" mentality in their poll.


    It never is really an eye for an eye. It is your eye for someone else's eye. THEIR eyes never seem to get involved when they do something wrong.
    Yes, I'm aware of those. Deterrent factor sounds good until you consider the possibility of accidentally punishing the innocent.

    And yes, the immunity that most police and prosecutors enjoy from incompetent or malicious prosecutions is part of the problem. We really need a way to punish police and prosecutors for sloppy prosecution, and the use of paid informants needs to stop.

    Mike Nifong's censurewas a fluke, and in my opinion didn't get nearly the punishment he deserves for what he did. The only reason Nifong didn't get away with what he did is that his defendants came from wealthy families. The average citizen would not have stood a chance.

    Google 'Tim Masters' and 'Mike Nifong', if you feel up for some outrage.

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    FreedomJoyAdventure wrote:
    We really need a way to punish police and prosecutors for sloppy prosecution, and the use of paid informants needs to stop.
    Oh there's a way.

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    riverrat10k wrote:
    Checked out this supposed LEO site and found these stats about captial punishment.

    forums.officer.com

    Their poll showed +27% favored death by the method of murder, with survivors having the option of pulling the switch.

    -24% said public hanging.

    public firing squad came in distant third at -13%

    Don't know squat about the site. Just thought this was interesting.

    riverrat

    *
    A lot on that site aren't LEO's, just wannabe's or trolls. Just fyi.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Mike Nifong and prosecutors like him provide the winning argument against capital punishment.

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    marshaul wrote:
    Mike Nifong and prosecutors like him provide the winning argument against capital punishment.
    Exactly.

    Lest anyone misunderstand, I believe that death is fully justified as a punishment in some cases, but I do not trust the government with this power.

    Some good reasons why:

    Ryan Frederick.

    Cory Maye.

    Randy Weaver.

    Genarlow Wilson.

    Ron Williamson.

    You might know all those names, or none of them. In each case, a man was either wrongly convicted or unjustly persecuted by prosecutors who would have gladly put them to death.



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    Who is it among us who wants to kill another human being?? And I mean aside fron the heat of passion. If my brother in law were to kill my sister, do not doubt that I would drive 500 miles and kill him myself, not with a gun but with a baseball bat; unless of course the Law got to him first and had him confined where I could not get to him. At some point I would have to look on him as a pathetic wretch, albeit a pathetic wretch who deserved the death penalty. I can imagine myself poised above his trembling form, baseball bat ready to emd his life, my sister's bloody corpse only scant feet away. But what good would I do?? and how would I know that Sis had been the victim of intruders and thatmy Brother-in-law had sustained injuries trying to defend her??

    This is why we have trials. And the death penalty can be a result. And gas a man or shoot him or hang him by his neck, orn pass electricity through him or give him an injection of lethal drugs, in the end he is still dead and there is no reversing the process. And there are prosecutors who like the "feather in the cap" that a Capital sentence can give them: "Look! I just made sure that guy will never harm anyone ever again!! And I know my brother- in -law well enough to know that he would never ever harm my sister, his wife. But evidence can paint a perverted trail, and combined with prosecutorial ambition the result can be the ultimate perversion of justice: the execution of an innocent man.

    Herein lies a paradox: There exist some things that people do that not only merit but absolutely cry out to God Almighty forthe life ofthe perpetrator. Andthere exist those people who would lay down another human on the killing machine just to advance their own fortunes. No matter what the weenies say, the death penalty does indeeddeter homicide. But no matter what the adocates of the death chamber say, in our capital system the chance of executing an innocent man is ever-present. We are not Gods. We are human beings. That our present systems of criminal justice; be they inclusive or exclusive of the death penalty: are woefully imprecise is one of the curses on our Human race.

    Having said that, if I were to catch my brother-in-law or anyone else truying to harm my sister, I would worry about the criminal justice systen later......

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    KBCraig wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    Mike Nifong and prosecutors like him provide the winning argument against capital punishment.
    Exactly.

    Lest anyone misunderstand, I believe that death is fully justified as a punishment in some cases, but I do not trust the government with this power.

    Some good reasons why:

    Ryan Frederick.

    Cory Maye.

    Randy Weaver.

    Genarlow Wilson.

    Ron Williamson.

    You might know all those names, or none of them. In each case, a man was either wrongly convicted or unjustly persecuted by prosecutors who would have gladly put them to death.

    In those cases maybe the prosecutors should be tried for murder. I agree with the death penalty as a deterrent, a punishment and a means to rid society of rabid monsters. It's like the whole gun argument. Should we get rid of guns because certain people don't use them responsibly? No. We need to hold those PARTICULAR people responsible for their wrongdoings. No criminal punishment guarantees that everyone is an actual criminal...whether it be probation, jail, prison, community service or execution. Which is worse, to be in prison for 30 years when you did nothing wrong or being killed? I might prefer death. You can steadily trickle down the argument of the 'innocent' until we don't punish people at all. If that's the case the ultimate result would be anarchy and that would be no better. Unfortunately we have to trust government with certain powers even if they can be used against us in an irresponsible way. I see the death penalty as a power that should be readily available but that must have pretty clear and irrefutable evidence against the accused. Until that point you keep them in prison (possibly as an innocent man/woman).

    To the people who dismiss execution as not being punishment because most of these people WANT to be dead....I say good. Give them what they want so they will stop killing people in order to get it. If that's the case then this is completely 100% humane.

    So again, perhaps we should try sloppy prosecutors for murder if/when it is evident that an innocent person was put to death. But execution itself, in my opinion, is a completely valid punishment when used responsibly and when presented with undeniable evidence.

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    marshaul wrote:
    Mike Nifong and prosecutors like him provide the winning argument against capital punishment.
    Exactly so. The problem with prosecutors (and judges and sheriffs and police chiefs) is that so many of them are out to make a name for themselves in order to advance their political careers. And unfortunately they sometimes do so at the expense of innocent citizens.

    "Mistrust those in whom the urge to punish is strong." -Friedrich Nietzsche

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    nitrovic wrote:
    A lot on that site aren't LEO's, just wannabe's or trolls. Just fyi.
    A lot on this site aren't open carry activist-advocates either, just LEO-wannabes and trolls. Just FYI.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    FreedomJoyAdventure wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    Mike Nifong and prosecutors like him provide the winning argument against capital punishment.
    Exactly so. The problem with prosecutors (and judges and sheriffs and police chiefs) is that so many of them are out to make a name for themselves in order to advance their political careers. And unfortunately they sometimes do so at the expense of innocent citizens.

    "Mistrust those in whom the urge to punish is strong." -Friedrich Nietzsche
    Two things that I immediately dismiss in a debate are references to Wikipedia and quotations.

    Perhaps we should mistrust those whom the urge to ABOLISH punishment is strong.....hmmm....makes you wonder what their personal motive is to detach punishment from a crime....

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    [/quote]<SNIP>Unfortunately we have to trust government with certain powers even if they can be used against us in an irresponsible way.<SNIP>*
    [/quote]

    I disagree. Over and over again I am reminded by current events that the government CANNOT BE TRUSTED WITH THE POWER TO EXECUTE ITS CITIZENS. The government should not have any power that individual citizens do not.

    And as for punishment? What's the purpose of punishment? Merely to spite the criminals? To express your wrath? Or to rehabilitate? What do you think you can really hope to accomplish in either case?

    I think the best we can do is just lock up criminals for our own protection. I'm not sure that rehabilitation works - rehabilitation must come from within, and punishment is most likely to just further the hate and injustice.

    At the same time, we shouldn't be paying for the prisons to have television or exercise equipment. Gotta go now, more on this later.

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    Well I disagree with YOU.

    There are 2 things and 2 things ONLY that keep ME from killing people. My morals and the fact that if I did I could be EXECUTED. To say that execution serves NO purpose is ridiculous.

    Do the people have the right to execute? Why do you fight for the 2nd Amendment? So you can shoot someone in the finger? Or so you can possibly take someone's life? Should you have the power to decide if they are guilty of wanting to take YOUR life and therefor be allowed to KILL them? What if you are wrong and they were just playing around or something? What if they were INNOCENT and you perceived them as a threat and killed them?

    Again, to use the "innocent" line as a reason to abolish a specific punishment means that you are less against that rationality and more against that particular punishment OTHERWISE you would use that same principle and apply it to ALL punishments. And IF YOU DID what we would end up with is a society where there are no punishments and people are free to murder, rape, rob, harass, speed, and vandalize all because people are against the EXCEPTION of an innocent person being punished. But...i'm sure that's different.

    Right?

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    richarcm wrote:
    Two things that I immediately dismiss in a debate are references to Wikipedia and quotations.
    A fool, only, denies that we stand upon the shoulders of giants. Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it is congruent with your weltanshung.

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    Provision is made in the Torah, or Old Testament, that if a person should bear false witness against another, and be found out; then it should be done to the false witness as the witness sought to hve done to the innocent.

    Works for me.

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